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Author Topic: Problems with Heathenry  (Read 2912 times)

corrosivesquid

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Problems with Heathenry
« on: January 10, 2018, 01:54:35 pm »
So this is my really official post here and it's more of a rant that is open to discussion than anything. I'm hoping I put this in the right place.
Okay, so I joined a pagan Reddit chat, and We were discussing the issues with Heathenry, and there are a lot. Mainly we discussed the adoption of heathenry into racist and bigot groups. Their voices are always the loudest and have ruined a lot of the heathen name.

So one person in this chat was talking about how we need to go back to the hearth, fix the issues there and that will (in theory) fix the issue with the tribe. I am in complete agreement on the idea and I mention a lot of heathens I know are very hearth oriented and I have been lucky to know good heathens. I'm met with "No such thing as a good heathen" by the admin followed by "I (the admin) ducked out of heathenry".

My issue with a lot of this is the clumping, you cannot clump the good ones with the bad ones. I have friends and a husband who fall under the heathen umbrella (Its not just astaru but Odinism as well), so for someone to tell me there is no such thing as a good heathen really frustrated me. I get there are issues within the world group and many seem to hold the belief of the Germanic and Nordic polytheistic religions belong just in the bloodlines, but not all of them do. Many I know are trying to change that.

I'm sorry, if this is not in the correct place, let me know. Like I said this is a rant open for discussion because I want to know what others (mainly other heathens) think of these issues and this idea of "No such thing as a good heathen".

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TransporterMalfunction

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2018, 03:54:55 pm »
I'm sorry, if this is not in the correct place, let me know. Like I said this is a rant open for discussion because I want to know what others (mainly other heathens) think of these issues and this idea of "No such thing as a good heathen".

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I'm not a heathen, so my thoughts below are completely coming out of my butt, but I also want to see a bit more activity on the religious SIGs and I think is is an excellent question for almost any reconstructionist-leaning path.

One of the reasons that I was drawn to paganism as a whole is that, in most paths, there isn't really a formula you have to follow to be considered 'good'. There are no holy texts written by the gods to describe the daily doings of what makes a good person. In Hellenismos the closest we come is the Delphic Maxims, but I would argue that they still don't hold the same amount of infallibility as The Bible does, for instance. The values you see coming up in Hellenic religion were more cultural rather than necessarily religious values held by the Greeks. It isn't that we can't hold those dear in our current practices, but even concepts like 'arete' are more abstract and require a lot of introspection rather than commands like 'Thou shalt not kill'.

This is a double edged sword, as it gives people the freedom to discover what values mean to them, and how to implement them in their lives. However, for the less introspective individual, it can become a free for all, where the gods don't lay down exactly what 'correct practice' is in terms of morality, so we as practitioners are not held to any standards.

Something that really struck me in the little reading I did for Asatru is that a lot of people seemed to hold the idea that the Norse gods do not care for the individual. It is the actions of the tribe that seem to concern them. I don't know if this is true or not, as I can't speak to the interests of the gods themselves, but I would assume that if it is true, there is little room for personal experiences/relationships with the gods. If that supposition is true, then how can the hearth and the community change when the building blocks of those (the individual) does not experience the transformative nature of interacting personally with deity? I assume that people are not coming to Norse Paganism with tolerance and love for everyone and being turned into racists. I assume that already racist individuals are finding a path they can twist to their own view point. If Asatru does not offer the spiritual avenue by which to change the individual, I can't see the hearth and community changing.

Of course, this is all coming from my view point that changes happen on an individual level and infiltrate upwards, and also assumes that the individual experience with deity has the most power, which is only echoing my own experience with pagan groups and may not be true for others. So, with Asatru I think the question becomes how does the community change? I don't have enough knowledge of the issues of bigotry in Asatru to comment on this, really. I assume that most groups (in North America) have policies/statements talking about how Asatru is not limited to bloodlines, and hopefully they stick up for the LGBTQ+ communities and other groups as well. If not, then organizations need to start making this a priority to address.

Also, I think that larger organizations could also publish materials or have classes on topics such as 'What does it mean to be a 'good' heathen?' It shouldn't be prescriptive, because I find that kind of thinking incompatible with paganism as a whole. But open up a dialogue - what do we know about the cultural values of the Norse? The religious values? Are these values that we want to take into the modern world? Is it possible or desirable to do so? And perhaps there are already organizations doing this, in which case I have added nothing new to the discussion.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to that bigots will always be able to find other bigots and window-dress their hatred with the trappings of religion or philosophy or whatever they can twist to fit their needs. You can have a large group of the most wonderful Heathens in existence, and still others will find a way to find people who share their beliefs and go off on their own and abuse the name of Asatru to fit their ideas.

Anyway, those are random thoughts based on my own biases. I hope some wonderful Heathens will pop into this thread and give me food for thought!
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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2018, 04:47:04 pm »
So this is my really official post here and it's more of a rant that is open to discussion than anything. I'm hoping I put this in the right place.
Okay, so I joined a pagan Reddit chat, and We were discussing the issues with Heathenry, and there are a lot. Mainly we discussed the adoption of heathenry into racist and bigot groups. Their voices are always the loudest and have ruined a lot of the heathen name.

So one person in this chat was talking about how we need to go back to the hearth, fix the issues there and that will (in theory) fix the issue with the tribe. I am in complete agreement on the idea and I mention a lot of heathens I know are very hearth oriented and I have been lucky to know good heathens. I'm met with "No such thing as a good heathen" by the admin followed by "I (the admin) ducked out of heathenry".

My issue with a lot of this is the clumping, you cannot clump the good ones with the bad ones. I have friends and a husband who fall under the heathen umbrella (Its not just astaru but Odinism as well), so for someone to tell me there is no such thing as a good heathen really frustrated me. I get there are issues within the world group and many seem to hold the belief of the Germanic and Nordic polytheistic religions belong just in the bloodlines, but not all of them do. Many I know are trying to change that.

I'm sorry, if this is not in the correct place, let me know. Like I said this is a rant open for discussion because I want to know what others (mainly other heathens) think of these issues and this idea of "No such thing as a good heathen".

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I always wondered why Heathenry, more so than any other Polythesistic religion, reconstructionist or otherwise, attracts racists. I never see this brought up in connection with Khemeticism, for example (though I may be about to learn something new). I suspect that it has something to do with the obvious. The 'vikings' where ferocious warriors, and they were white. Completely ignoring other aspects of Norse culture, obviously.

Then again, the Greeks and Romans were also white, and great fighters. Yet they are not usually associated with racism, and both have just as much prominence in European history and most of the 'great' traits of western society are attributed to them, deserving or not. Perhaps it is because the Romans promoted the idea of Universal Citizenship? Or is it that North European racists extent these sentiments to Southern Europeans (which just goes to show racism's ideological bankruptcy).

Or maybe there are other issues in Heathenry which are specifically attractive to racists? I may have to think more deeply on this question.

corrosivesquid

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2018, 05:34:31 pm »


I'm not a heathen, so my thoughts below are completely coming out of my butt, but I also want to see a bit more activity on the religious SIGs and I think is is an excellent question for almost any reconstructionist-leaning path.

One of the reasons that I was drawn to paganism as a whole is that, in most paths, there isn't really a formula you have to follow to be considered 'good'. There are no holy texts written by the gods to describe the daily doings of what makes a good person. In Hellenismos the closest we come is the Delphic Maxims, but I would argue that they still don't hold the same amount of infallibility as The Bible does, for instance. The values you see coming up in Hellenic religion were more cultural rather than necessarily religious values held by the Greeks. It isn't that we can't hold those dear in our current practices, but even concepts like 'arete' are more abstract and require a lot of introspection rather than commands like 'Thou shalt not kill'.

This is a double edged sword, as it gives people the freedom to discover what values mean to them, and how to implement them in their lives. However, for the less introspective individual, it can become a free for all, where the gods don't lay down exactly what 'correct practice' is in terms of morality, so we as practitioners are not held to any standards.

Something that really struck me in the little reading I did for Asatru is that a lot of people seemed to hold the idea that the Norse gods do not care for the individual. It is the actions of the tribe that seem to concern them. I don't know if this is true or not, as I can't speak to the interests of the gods themselves, but I would assume that if it is true, there is little room for personal experiences/relationships with the gods. If that supposition is true, then how can the hearth and the community change when the building blocks of those (the individual) does not experience the transformative nature of interacting personally with deity? I assume that people are not coming to Norse Paganism with tolerance and love for everyone and being turned into racists. I assume that already racist individuals are finding a path they can twist to their own view point. If Asatru does not offer the spiritual avenue by which to change the individual, I can't see the hearth and community changing.

Of course, this is all coming from my view point that changes happen on an individual level and infiltrate upwards, and also assumes that the individual experience with deity has the most power, which is only echoing my own experience with pagan groups and may not be true for others. So, with Asatru I think the question becomes how does the community change? I don't have enough knowledge of the issues of bigotry in Asatru to comment on this, really. I assume that most groups (in North America) have policies/statements talking about how Asatru is not limited to bloodlines, and hopefully they stick up for the LGBTQ+ communities and other groups as well. If not, then organizations need to start making this a priority to address.

Also, I think that larger organizations could also publish materials or have classes on topics such as 'What does it mean to be a 'good' heathen?' It shouldn't be prescriptive, because I find that kind of thinking incompatible with paganism as a whole. But open up a dialogue - what do we know about the cultural values of the Norse? The religious values? Are these values that we want to take into the modern world? Is it possible or desirable to do so? And perhaps there are already organizations doing this, in which case I have added nothing new to the discussion.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to that bigots will always be able to find other bigots and window-dress their hatred with the trappings of religion or philosophy or whatever they can twist to fit their needs. You can have a large group of the most wonderful Heathens in existence, and still others will find a way to find people who share their beliefs and go off on their own and abuse the name of Asatru to fit their ideas.

Anyway, those are random thoughts based on my own biases. I hope some wonderful Heathens will pop into this thread and give me food for thought!

I'm not a heathen either, my husband is and I'm so excited to hear these responses from everyone, heathen or not.

I don't know a whole lot about Astaru except it is more traditional in comparison to Odinism. Odinism has more of a "We live in a modern day and the gods are smart enough to coincide and change with the times" view rather than Astaru which is more of a "Learn the language, stick to tradition". I've always liked the idea of the gods changing with the times rather than demanding we stick to the old ways. I really like the fact this forum supports male Brighid flamekeepers because that is a change with the times.

Odinism does seemed to be more closed than Astaru. At least this is what I understand, but I do think it comes down to people seeking out others with their world view and sadly those with more of negative views speak the loudest.

When it comes down to change on the individual level, that's what I mean by fixing it at the hearth. The family level and eventually it will spread to the tribe, but I do think larger organizations can help in spreading and bringing this to light.

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corrosivesquid

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2018, 05:42:44 pm »


I always wondered why Heathenry, more so than any other Polythesistic religion, reconstructionist or otherwise, attracts racists.

I do think it has something to do with the location and the popularity of shows such as Vikings on the history channel that romanticize the idea of being a Viking and a warrior, but don't do their research beyond that. As you said, the spread to southern Europe and beyond should probe the ideas of staying in the race wrong.

I don't know why the Hellenic paths or the Celtic paths don't have as vast of a problem other than they aren't as widely known. I've noticed a lot of attitudes towards Heathenry is "Oh your a pagan because it's a trend" or a "Watered down" pagan because of the popularity of the culture.

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2018, 06:22:12 pm »
I always wondered why Heathenry, more so than any other Polythesistic religion, reconstructionist or otherwise, attracts racists. I never see this brought up in connection with Khemeticism, for example (though I may be about to learn something new). I suspect that it has something to do with the obvious. The 'vikings' where ferocious warriors, and they were white. Completely ignoring other aspects of Norse culture, obviously.

Then again, the Greeks and Romans were also white, and great fighters. Yet they are not usually associated with racism, and both have just as much prominence in European history and most of the 'great' traits of western society are attributed to them, deserving or not. Perhaps it is because the Romans promoted the idea of Universal Citizenship? Or is it that North European racists extent these sentiments to Southern Europeans (which just goes to show racism's ideological bankruptcy).

Or maybe there are other issues in Heathenry which are specifically attractive to racists? I may have to think more deeply on this question.

You're right, the reason is obvious, but you're overlooking the obvious poison: Nazi ideology. The Nazis created the mythical idea of the Aryan, a very fair-skinned, blue-eyed blond, who constituted a master race. The ancient religion of the Vikings is easily repurposed to support this myth. I can't think of a white supremacist who isn't touched by that Nazi poison, even if they don't know it, and so they'd easily gravitate to a religion that seems to back it.
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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2018, 07:22:31 pm »
You're right, the reason is obvious, but you're overlooking the obvious poison: Nazi ideology. The Nazis created the mythical idea of the Aryan, a very fair-skinned, blue-eyed blond, who constituted a master race. The ancient religion of the Vikings is easily repurposed to support this myth. I can't think of a white supremacist who isn't touched by that Nazi poison, even if they don't know it, and so they'd easily gravitate to a religion that seems to back it.

True. But why is Norse Polytheism the vehicle for this? What about Norse Polytheism (or mythology) is so easy to adapt for racist purposes?

And, why has it not manifested in Germanic or Saxon Reconstruction? Is this simply due to the greater accessibility and awareness of Norse religion?

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 09:47:18 pm »
True. But why is Norse Polytheism the vehicle for this? What about Norse Polytheism (or mythology) is so easy to adapt for racist purposes?

It's not especially easy to adapt for those purposes, not any more so than any other reconstruction.  (Most of which have at least some subgroups with racial issues, some more prominent than others; further, if you look at the proto-reconstructionist period you get a whole bunch more explicitly fascist reconstructions like the Gruppa del Ur, and there's the Golden Dawn in Greece as well of course.)

What it has is a historical Nazi problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Else_Christensen

So with Else Christensen, we have a card-carrying European Nazi founding the Odinist Fellowship, who hooks up with Valgard Murray and Elton Hall and certifies their group as part of the Odinist Fellowship, the first group thus recognised.  And they set up prison outreach programs to try to get converts in prison (in case you were wondering about white felons with Nazi prison tattoos and call themselves Odinists).

Valgard Murray: another actualfax Nazi.  Involved with the Arizona branch of the American Nazi Party, and got introduced to Odinism through there, though he considered mystical experiences he had earlier in his life to be visions of Odin.  Got controversial at various points, including when he threatened to kill another heathen for being gay, since Nazis don't like queerness either.

Now, when Christensen gets arrested for drug trafficking, the Odinist Fellowship membership list gets passed to Stephen McNallen, founder of the Viking Brotherhood, who called what he did Odinism for a while, and then changed the name to Asatru (which he got from an Icelandic reference).  Eventually he turns the Viking Brotherhood into the Asatru Free Assembly, which was hugely influential.  McNallen has some gloriously crackpot racist notions, such as "metagenetics", the argument by which apparently religion is passed on through some intrinsic property of genes and thus people who don't have the correct heritage can't do it right.  Now, despite this racist bullshit, McNallen isn't an actual Nazi, and he tried to get the Nazis out of the AFA, banning the wearing of Nazi regalia and so on, which meant that the Nazis who had previously been happy with his group left in a snit to various other groups.

Eventually the Asatru Free Assembly schismed into the Asatru Alliance (Valgard Murray again), the explicitly folkish side of things, and the Ring of Troth (Edred Thorsson/Stephen Flowers and James Chisholm).  (Thorsson was expelled from the Odinic Rite over his involvement with the Temple of Set.  Seriously, chasing around Wikipedia links on these people is completely wild.)  This schism, more or less, dates to the mid-late 1980s.

Meanwhile in the mid-90s McNallen founds another group, the Asatru Folk Assembly, making "what do you mean what you say 'AFA' in heathen contexts?" a question that one has to actually ask, as part of a backlash to the Troth's universalism, because he wanted a heathen denomination for racist beliefs that weren't actually full-on Nazi.  He says that this group holds a "middle ground", to wit that while religion is magically passed on genetically somehow that doesn't mean one wants to actively hate on people of other heritages.  He is very worried about The Coming Extinction Of The White Race, though.

Or, to summarize:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathenry_(new_religious_movement)#Racial_issues
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathenry_in_the_United_States

Meanwhile, in Iceland, Icelandic Asatru was founded by a sheep farmer who really, really liked traditional poetry.  A lot of non-Icelandic heathens find Icelandic heathenry very odd, in my experience, and their practices and lore interpretations not relevant to their own practices.

(added a phrase about self-identified Odinists)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 09:49:40 pm by Darkhawk »
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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 10:09:47 pm »

An earlier, more in-depth post about the history of heathenry according to my pagan movement history research can be found here:
https://ecauldron.com/forum/asatru-and-heathenry-sig/asatru-folk-assembly-racist-and-transphobic-post/msg196317/#msg196317
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corrosivesquid

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2018, 10:26:12 pm »
An earlier, more in-depth post about the history of heathenry according to my pagan movement history research can be found here:
https://ecauldron.com/forum/asatru-and-heathenry-sig/asatru-folk-assembly-racist-and-transphobic-post/msg196317/#msg196317
That was a wonderful read! Thank you for sharing, it was a lot of I formation I had no idea about!
I had a feeling they were always there, but I guess for a while it wasn't as prominent after 1994 till now. However, you are correct in the question of what can we do about it.

The person in the chat who stated there is no such thing as a good pagan was talking about how we need to "burn the long boat and rebuild it out of reeds". I don't think that's the answer. Trying to ban people from practicing Heathenry in the grand scheme of pagan is like the abrahamic religions trying to ban Islam as a religion.

Going back to the idea of starting at the hearth though is what I think needs to happen. I know with many of the heathen sectors believing in the tribe rather than hearth that is more difficult though. However if we get enough tribes and large heathen organizations to voice their belief against bigotry and racism, eventually they will either be faded out or silenced.

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2018, 11:42:28 pm »
So this is my really official post here and it's more of a rant that is open to discussion than anything. I'm hoping I put this in the right place.
Okay, so I joined a pagan Reddit chat, and We were discussing the issues with Heathenry, and there are a lot. Mainly we discussed the adoption of heathenry into racist and bigot groups. Their voices are always the loudest and have ruined a lot of the heathen name.

So one person in this chat was talking about how we need to go back to the hearth, fix the issues there and that will (in theory) fix the issue with the tribe. I am in complete agreement on the idea and I mention a lot of heathens I know are very hearth oriented and I have been lucky to know good heathens. I'm met with "No such thing as a good heathen" by the admin followed by "I (the admin) ducked out of heathenry".

My issue with a lot of this is the clumping, you cannot clump the good ones with the bad ones. I have friends and a husband who fall under the heathen umbrella (Its not just astaru but Odinism as well), so for someone to tell me there is no such thing as a good heathen really frustrated me. I get there are issues within the world group and many seem to hold the belief of the Germanic and Nordic polytheistic religions belong just in the bloodlines, but not all of them do. Many I know are trying to change that.

I'm sorry, if this is not in the correct place, let me know. Like I said this is a rant open for discussion because I want to know what others (mainly other heathens) think of these issues and this idea of "No such thing as a good heathen".

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Well, the idea that there "is no such thing" as a good Heathen because there are some racist idiots out there is simply lazy stereotyping. In my experience, the more focused on racial supremacy a so-called "Heathen" is, the less knowledge of the actual historical religion they actually have.

Unfortunately, we can't really make the racists cease to exist because there always going to be wilfully idiotic people out there and short of engaging in physical violence I don't really see how they can be stopped from having there own private spaces to engage in ridiculously self-congratulatory celebrations of their own whiteness.

What actual Heathens can do is to clearly indicate that we reject racial supremacism (and its idiot cousin - McNallen's nonsense about "metagenetics") in the strongest possible terms and refuse to participate with people who hold such views. In my community, we do not allow people to join who hold such noxious ideas and we state that clearly to anyone who is interested.

Happily, real Heathens have made many efforts to differentiate themselves from the racists who would use a parody of our religion as window-dressing for their foolishness. Huginns Heathen Hof created a public declaration for Heathen organizations to sign in order to clearly state their opposition to racism.

http://www.heathenhof.com/declaration127/

There was also a conference this Autumn (Frith Forge) in which Heathen groups from around the world met to discuss how we can deal with the racist idiots in our midst.

http://wildhunt.org/2017/11/column-report-from-frith-forge.html

Finally, I was very pleased to see an article published on exactly this issues in the Atlantic which is the first time I've seen a major publication write about Heathenry with something other than sneering condensation. It's a good read because it shows how Heathen organizations in different parts of the world view and respond to this problem.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/11/asatru-heathenry-racism/543864/

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2018, 12:02:52 am »

Something that really struck me in the little reading I did for Asatru is that a lot of people seemed to hold the idea that the Norse gods do not care for the individual. It is the actions of the tribe that seem to concern them. I don't know if this is true or not, as I can't speak to the interests of the gods themselves, but I would assume that if it is true, there is little room for personal experiences/relationships with the gods. If that supposition is true, then how can the hearth and the community change when the building blocks of those (the individual) does not experience the transformative nature of interacting personally with deity?

I do not want to hijack this thread because this topic is very important. However, I would just likely to quickly express my opinion that the belief that Germanic Deities are somehow uniquely predisposed to focusing on "the tribe" and are unconcerned with individuals is somewhat misguided. While people who hold to this viewpoint will focus on the relative importance of the community over the individual in historically Heathen societies, a similar point can be made for the vast majority of human societies, especially in the premodern era (some of which do have clearly documented evidence of individual/family prayer). While I think there is great value in not assuming that the Gods are obligated to become personally involved in the minute details of your life, I think the idea that individuals can/should not pray to the Gods is more indicative of the way Heathenry has developed in North America rather than any accurate description of the nature of the divine.
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corrosivesquid

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2018, 12:21:48 am »


Well, the idea that there "is no such thing" as a good Heathen because there are some racist idiots out there is simply lazy stereotyping. In my experience, the more focused on racial supremacy a so-called "Heathen" is, the less knowledge of the actual historical religion they actually have.

Unfortunately, we can't really make the racists cease to exist because there always going to be wilfully idiotic people out there and short of engaging in physical violence I don't really see how they can be stopped from having there own private spaces to engage in ridiculously self-congratulatory celebrations of their own whiteness.

What actual Heathens can do is to clearly indicate that we reject racial supremacism (and its idiot cousin - McNallen's nonsense about "metagenetics") in the strongest possible terms and refuse to participate with people who hold such views. In my community, we do not allow people to join who hold such noxious ideas and we state that clearly to anyone who is interested.

Happily, real Heathens have made many efforts to differentiate themselves from the racists who would use a parody of our religion as window-dressing for their foolishness. Huginns Heathen Hof created a public declaration for Heathen organizations to sign in order to clearly state their opposition to racism.

http://www.heathenhof.com/declaration127/

There was also a conference this Autumn (Frith Forge) in which Heathen groups from around the world met to discuss how we can deal with the racist idiots in our midst.

http://wildhunt.org/2017/11/column-report-from-frith-forge.html

Finally, I was very pleased to see an article published on exactly this issues in the Atlantic which is the first time I've seen a major publication write about Heathenry with something other than sneering condensation. It's a good read because it shows how Heathen organizations in different parts of the world view and respond to this problem.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/11/asatru-heathenry-racism/543864/

Wow!! Those are amazing! I know we have an open circle and we don't allow any of it in our circle either and it is a great way to combat the problem. If they don't have a platform to speak, they will keep it private.

I'm happy to see platforms doing something and trying to speak louder, hopefully others will stop lazily stereotyping heathens as racists and actually get to know them as people and individuals.

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2018, 05:06:59 pm »
It's not especially easy to adapt for those purposes, not any more so than any other reconstruction.  (Most of which have at least some subgroups with racial issues, some more prominent than others; further, if you look at the proto-reconstructionist period you get a whole bunch more explicitly fascist reconstructions like the Gruppa del Ur, and there's the Golden Dawn in Greece as well of course.)

What it has is a historical Nazi problem.


And now it makes sense.

Nazi's show up in the strangest of places. Heathenry, Argentina, the White House ...

drgong

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Re: Problems with Heathenry
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2018, 11:06:37 pm »
I always wondered why Heathenry, more so than any other Polythesistic religion, reconstructionist or otherwise, attracts racists.

Well I think the same reason why some groups get mad if a white pagan does "cultural appropriation" is the reason why the people who feel the same way who are white will be drawn to the more volkish side of things.    (That this is our thing and not yours)

The other things is that

1.   Heathenism is naturally very volkish
2.   The racial side also comes from Prison conversions, where whites felt they needed to band together for protection.
3.   Connection to Scandi Death Metal music and some of the racial aspects.


Also, paganism as a rule generaly attracts outliers who do not find the current faith (or the current lack of faith depending on culture) as meeting their spiritual need, and while many people who come to paganism are very, whimsical is not the right word, live and let live and the whole counter-culture side.

Then there is the huge chunk of people who are recoiled by what they see as degenerate, failing society that lacks cultural unity and Norse Paganism is one of the few that there are groups that preach a more rough and tumble cultural paganism.


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