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Author Topic: A question of honor and loyalty for recons  (Read 2555 times)

Juniperberry

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A question of honor and loyalty for recons
« on: October 30, 2011, 08:25:31 pm »
I don't know if that title is fully relevant to my question, but whatever, it's a nod to the Loki thread and in the same vein.

Lokeans/Rokkatru/Eclectic heathens usually rely on UPG a bit more than recons, and have a strong attachment to their spirituality (naturally). Recons usually argue that it's more respectful to try and honor what our ancestors believed and they, too, are deeply attached to their spiritual views.

But how important is it to you to really honor what our ancestors believed? Like, if by some hypothetical 'miracle' the gods and the deads materialized on earth and told recons that everything they thought to be true was false, how would you react? Say, for instance, that the pre-christian Germanic worldview was actually identical to the Christian one and the might and main, and ar ok frith, and the wights and reciprocal gifting was all null. Would you still prefer to honor the ancestors by believing in that and be willing to let go off the spirituality that you had grown attached to? Or would you, like the more eclectic/modern/et al prefer to stick to what truly spoke to you?
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

hlewagastir

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Re: A question of honor and loyalty for recons
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2011, 04:22:48 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;28308

But how important is it to you to really honor what our ancestors believed?


Very important. To perform the right actions for the right reasons is very important to me.
The ideas of what is "right" and important that I, and others, find in the lore fits fairly well with what I feel is important in life and death.
As a small bonus it also satisfy my interest in history and archaeology :whis:

When I pour over sources and reconstruct a sacrifice the best I can, I have a feeling of deep satisfaction afterwards; I feel satisfied because I have done what is right and true to me and mine, by performing that sacrifice in the way my ancestors did it, for the reasons my ancestors did it.
Later on in my studies I might discover that they did not invoke Hades and that they did not stand in a huge pentagram made out of oats... Fair enough, that discovery just means that I (hopefully) have moved a little closer to understand my ancestor´s worldview and the cult that stems from it.
I adapt my private cult to these new discoveries, and "reconstruct" my rituals with this new knowledge in mind.

Quote

 Like, if by some hypothetical 'miracle' the gods and the deads materialized on earth and told recons that everything they thought to be true was false, how would you react?


Well, I do adapt to new knowledge, but I´m pretty hard to convince and need some pretty substantial proof. If the gods appeared in my head I would seek out the doctor before rewriting my rituals... But then again, I probably would  not follow this religion if I thought there was a chance that this "miracle" might happen ;)

Quote

Say, for instance, that the pre-christian Germanic worldview was actually identical to the Christian one and the might and main, and ar ok frith, and the wights and reciprocal gifting was all null.


I would probably end up being a atheist... On a more serious note I would have to find another education and hundreds, if not thousands, of scholars would be out of a job.

Quote

 Would you still prefer to honor the ancestors by believing in that and be willing to let go off the spirituality that you had grown attached to? Or would you, like the more eclectic/modern/et al prefer to stick to what truly spoke to you?


Religion and spirituality is not interchangeable...
This is sort of mental masturbation to me.
It´s like asking me how I would react if everything made out of plastic suddenly turned into candy; I don´t have an answer and I don´t really need one.

År og Fred ~ Niels

Juniperberry

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Re: A question of honor and loyalty for recons
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2011, 12:16:31 pm »
Quote from: hlewagastir;28334
Very important. To perform the right actions for the right reasons is very important to me.
The ideas of what is "right" and important that I, and others, find in the lore fits fairly well with what I feel is important in life and death.


I feel the same way, but I couldn't help wondering...what if that which I think is right and that which I love about heathenry is wrong? Would I keep my heathens views or adapt to what my ancestors believed?

Quote
As a small bonus it also satisfy my interest in history and archaeology :whis:


Absolutely! This is one of the big draws for me in heathenry. Honestly, do I like what I learn more, or is it the learning that I like better? I concluded that it's the learning...I'm incredibly curious about my ancestors and the past and I want right information about that. The bonus for me, then, is that what I'm finding is a satisfying worldview/religion/lifestyle from it.

Quote
When I pour over sources and reconstruct a sacrifice the best I can, I have a feeling of deep satisfaction afterwards; I feel satisfied because I have done what is right and true to me and mine, by performing that sacrifice in the way my ancestors did it, for the reasons my ancestors did it.
Later on in my studies I might discover that they did not invoke Hades and that they did not stand in a huge pentagram made out of oats... Fair enough, that discovery just means that I (hopefully) have moved a little closer to understand my ancestor´s worldview and the cult that stems from it.


Agreed again. I was thinking about how when I read  Uses of Wodan. I wasn't close-minded or upset at the idea that Odin may not be who we think he is, I was just fascinated by the new information and felt that deep satisfaction at getting more info and more depth and more understanding.

Quote
I adapt my private cult to these new discoveries, and "reconstruct" my rituals with this new knowledge in mind.

Well, I do adapt to new knowledge, but I´m pretty hard to convince and need some pretty substantial proof. If the gods appeared in my head I would seek out the doctor before rewriting my rituals...


Heh, yeah ditto that. But it was hypothetical.

And there is the issue of getting new information all the time that sometimes disproves things we've thougth before (or attempts to at least). There's always a slim chance that some new discovery could turn it all on it's head.
 
Quote
But then again, I probably would  not follow this religion if I thought there was a chance that this "miracle" might happen ;)

I would probably end up being a atheist... On a more serious note I would have to find another education and hundreds, if not thousands, of scholars would be out of a job.


See, that's sort of what I was getting at. A lot of recons use the 'honor the ancestors' thing, but when we get right down to it, there's a lot of spiritual 'rightness' to it as well. We're heathen because it speaks to us spiritually. How much room does that give us to criticize neo-heathens who say that their view of heathenry speaks to them?


Quote
Religion and spirituality is not interchangeable...
This is sort of mental masturbation to me.
It´s like asking me how I would react if everything made out of plastic suddenly turned into candy; I don´t have an answer and I don´t really need one.


As long as I don't get pregnant.... :P

But like I said before, there *is* always new info that comes along with the potential to change things. How much change are you willing to accept to honor your ancestors before you say, "Hey- this no longer speaks to me spiritually?"


I also {shiny lights} blogged {shiny lights} about this...but it was pretty much everything I said here.

Quote
År og Fred ~ Niels


Frith :)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Juniperberry

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Re: A question of honor and loyalty for recons
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2011, 12:30:51 pm »
Quote


Btw, the question was inspired by a blog at Musings of a Mental Midgardian, here :

http://crazygirlyheathen.blogspot.com/2011/07/on-susan-b-anthony-and-upg.html

Which I agree with 99.9%, but still....
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

hlewagastir

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Re: A question of honor and loyalty for recons
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2011, 01:16:04 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;28380
I feel the same way, but I couldn't help wondering...what if that which I think is right and that which I love about heathenry is wrong? Would I keep my heathens views or adapt to what my ancestors believed?



Heathenry is quite flexible.
Odin can be a dumb brute and get fooled by the giants, it would be against his nature but it would not matter in the grand scheme of cult and culture.
Christ can not be a sinful a**hole without huge consequences to the Christian cult and culture.


Quote

See, that's sort of what I was getting at. A lot of recons use the 'honour the ancestors' thing, but when we get right down to it, there's a lot of spiritual 'rightness' to it as well. We're heathen because it speaks to us spiritually. How much room does that give us to criticize neo-heathens who say that their view of heathenry speaks to them?



Most of the criticism I have experienced were due to poor treatment of sources... I am aware that there are many ways of interpreting something, but IMO it is problematic when people try to historically justify their UPG by manipulating the lore (often unintentionally). We all do it, but some do it more than others...


Quote
But like I said before, there *is* always new info that comes along with the potential to change things. How much change are you willing to accept to honor your ancestors before you say, "Hey- this no longer speaks to me spiritually?"



There´s a huge difference between Odin not being Odin, and the literal “non existence” of fundamental cultural and religious cornerstones that you talk about... Granted it is a hypothetical, extreme scenario, but due to its extreme nature my way to respond to it can not be compared with my way to respond to the theories of Shaw or Simek.

Juniperberry

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Re: A question of honor and loyalty for recons
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2011, 11:58:27 am »
Quote from: hlewagastir;28388




There´s a huge difference between Odin not being Odin, and the literal “non existence” of fundamental cultural and religious cornerstones that you talk about... Granted it is a hypothetical, extreme scenario, but due to its extreme nature my way to respond to it can not be compared with my way to respond to the theories of Shaw or Simek.


I think, for the most part, you've covered all of the bases. :)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Juniperberry

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Re: A question of honor and loyalty for recons
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2011, 09:27:32 pm »
Quote from: hlewagastir;28334

This is sort of mental masturbation to me.



Thinking more about this for a few days and you're right. I think, for me, the clashing I feel between heathenry and paganism makes me feel like I need to take a step back and really evaluate whether I'm just eating up the info heathenry dishes out or if it's something I truly have grasped and internalized into a well-developed WV. Especially when, in heathenry, there are so many complex concepts that if one just spouts them off without really analyzing them than you get into some black and white areas (i.e racism).
 
Eh, don't know if that makes sense. Have a lot on my mind right now that's just a swirl of mental diarrhea to begin with.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

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