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Author Topic: Odin and Freyr: One and the same?  (Read 8989 times)

hlewagastir

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Re: Odin and Freyr: One and the same?
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2011, 06:28:20 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;2593
He was given Alfheim as a tooth-gift?


That is correct, however, the first part of the word, alf-, also mean "shiny" or "bright" so Alfheim does not have to be home of the Alfr. It could as easily be a beautiful and bright place (as in home of beauty and brightness).
Actually, I think the mentioning of Alfheim as a tooth-gift is the only notion in the Lore of a possible Freyr-Alfr connection...

UPG:
Of cause there is the case of Olaf Geirstadalf (and possibly other "mount-alfr" ?) where Freyr might get a foot in due to his connection with Royalty and the mount - Geirstadalf was Norwegian but there might be similar cases in Sweden.

Juniperberry

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Re: Odin and Freyr: One and the same?
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2011, 03:28:58 pm »
Quote from: hlewagastir;2690
That is correct, however, the first part of the word, alf-, also mean "shiny" or "bright" so Alfheim does not have to be home of the Alfr. It could as easily be a beautiful and bright place (as in home of beauty and brightness).
Actually, I think the mentioning of Alfheim as a tooth-gift is the only notion in the Lore of a possible Freyr-Alfr connection...

UPG:
Of cause there is the case of Olaf Geirstadalf (and possibly other "mount-alfr" ?) where Freyr might get a foot in due to his connection with Royalty and the mount - Geirstadalf was Norwegian but there might be similar cases in Sweden.

 

I think the alfablot shows that 'alf' means some sort of being- elves or otherwise, and that it's generally understood to mean the home of the light elves. Well...at least with Snorri anyway...though the alfablot does show some sort of folk custom.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

hlewagastir

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Re: Odin and Freyr: One and the same?
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2011, 06:08:35 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;3014
I think the alfablot shows that 'alf' means some sort of being- elves or otherwise, and that it's generally understood to mean the home of the light elves. Well...at least with Snorri anyway...though the alfablot does show some sort of folk custom.


There is a difference between alfa- and alf-, where alfa is a form of the word alfr which means elf.
"Generally understood" is no guarantee.

Btw, I have this particular piece of information from Fyrfos (it´s not from AL but from a Danish forum).

Juniperberry

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Re: Odin and Freyr: One and the same?
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2011, 07:32:15 pm »
Quote from: hlewagastir;3394
There is a difference between alfa- and alf-, where alfa is a form of the word alfr which means elf.


Sorry, I was going by the common (lazy?) usage "alf"; there is also ælf, ylf, elfen, alben, elfr, etc. Though, you're correct, in this context there is a big difference.

Even with "alf" meaning light or bright, there is still a connection- from what I read- to the elves and to Freyr.  Gylfaginning says that Freyr controls the sun, and the sun is also called álfröðlull "glory of the elves".


Quote
"Generally understood" is no guarantee.


No, but I think it shows it's the best guess for now until other information comes to light.

Quote
Btw, I have this particular piece of information from Fyrfos (it´s not from AL but from a Danish forum).


I don't know Fyrfos personally, but I have read his posts on AL. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt over my own knwoledge on this. :) Would you be able to link me that post? I've pretty much hit the edge of my familiarity on this topic and don't know if I'll have much else to contribute, but this conversation has made me curious about it all. (Which is just wonderful, because it distracts me from the one million and one other things I wanted to look into more deeply re: heathenry. I think recon inspires ADD in a person. :P )

FWIW, I've been using the dictionaries of Simek and Lindow and HRED's Road to Hel. (She really goes into the connection between Freyr, elves and the dead...I think you've mentioned reading it, too?)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

hlewagastir

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Re: Odin and Freyr: One and the same?
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2011, 08:36:45 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;3414
Even with "alf" meaning light or bright, there is still a connection- from what I read- to the elves and to Freyr.  Gylfaginning says that Freyr controls the sun, and the sun is also called álfröðlull "glory of the elves".



The problem with Gylfaginning is that it is written by Snorri.



Quote
No, but I think it shows it's the best guess for now until other information comes to light.


That is actually the problem. New information comes to light all the time but because we are so far from the cutting edge of research we are forced to feed on 30-40 years old, and somtimes outdated, information.


Quote
I don't know Fyrfos personally, but I have read his posts on AL. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt over my own knwoledge on this. :) Would you be able to link me that post? I've pretty much hit the edge of my familiarity on this topic and don't know if I'll have much else to contribute, but this conversation has made me curious about it all. (Which is just wonderful, because it distracts me from the one million and one other things I wanted to look into more deeply re: heathenry. I think recon inspires ADD in a person. :P )



Here is the link:
http://kindir.dk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5118

From Kvaser(/Fyrfos)
Quote
Igen: jeg ville være meget varsom med at knytte Frej til alferne, for det egentlige kildemæssige grundlag for at gøre det, er meget svagt. Det er kun strofen i Grímnismál, der knytter ham til Alfheim (og så Snorres gentagelse af den i Edda), og det behøver slet ikke være samme sted som der, hvor alferne opholder sig. Forleddet alf- kan hentyde til 'skinnende' ligesom den tidligere nævnte brug på angelsaksisk, så det Alfheim som Frej råder over kan ligeså vel være et smukt sted som det kan være knyttet til 'alfer' ... og igen, der er heller ingen grund til at tro, at alferne ikke er identiske med aserne wink



Quote

FWIW, I've been using the dictionaries of Simek and Lindow and HRED's Road to Hel. (She really goes into the connection between Freyr, elves and the dead...I think you've mentioned reading it, too?)


I have 3 of HRED´s works (including Road to Hel) and they contain a lot of good info, however, Road to Hel is almost 70 years old... A good deal of her material is outdated.

Juniperberry

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Re: Odin and Freyr: One and the same?
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2011, 09:41:53 pm »
(I started to log in as 'freyr'. *rolls eyes*)


Quote from: hlewagastir;3439
The problem with Gylfaginning is that it is written by Snorri.


 I have a question about that. What do you think of  mundane Alfheim south(?) of Sweden, it's supposed geneaology, and the connections within the context of this convo?


Quote
That is actually the problem. New information comes to light all the time but because we are so far from the cutting edge of research we are forced to feed on 30-40 years old, and somtimes outdated, information.


Hey, I work with what I have handy! :p Do you have any links to more current info on this? I have searched alfheim etc on AL but so far am not finding anything different, really.


 
Quote
og igen, der er heller ingen grund til at tro, at alferne ikke er identiske med aserne wink



I did see some mention of this as well, ex. Lokasenna. With all the disagreement about what alfheim really means, and Freyr's connection, what's the alternative? Just that Freyr was given a beautiful place? That the alfar did exist but have no real place in the lore? Maybe if we discuss what it could mean, rather than what it couldn't, I could understand your side of the argument more.  What's the new consensus, that alfar is like the Vanir in that it's just another name for the regin?

Tho, admittedly, with Freyr being a fertility god, being gifted a "beautiful place" does tend to make as much if not more sense than being gifted elves....unless we look at the elves function of fertility according to HRED, which you say is outdated.

(Ok, sometimes I like puzzles and sometimes it's frustrating, heh. ;P)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Juniperberry

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Re: Odin and Freyr: One and the same?
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2011, 10:22:41 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;3449



To reference another questionable source, Grimm says that the presence of Freyr's name in given-names indicates that it can't simply mean 'Lord', and points out that Freyr turns his back on weapons and war, even going so far as to give away his sword. Which, of course, doesn't sound much like Odin at all. (I haven't gone over his chapter for Freyja yet, but it sounds so far like he is going to make the jump that Frey and Freyja are- or were- one and the same.)

According to Snorri: Helheim is the abode of Hel, Jotunheim is the abode of the Jotuns, Vanaheim is the abode of the Vanir and, thus, Alfheim is the abode of the alfar. But if we're saying Snorri is wrong about this, and there is no distinction between the Vanir and Aesir, and that alfheim just means shiny place, then what does that mean for a heathen reconstructing this? How do these worlds fit into the worldview?


(Thanks for the link above, btw, it was a good read. :) )
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Lokabrenna

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Re: Odin and Freyr: One and the same?
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2011, 12:22:37 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;3463

According to Snorri: Helheim is the abode of Hel, Jotunheim is the abode of the Jotuns, Vanaheim is the abode of the Vanir and, thus, Alfheim is the abode of the alfar. But if we're saying Snorri is wrong about this, and there is no distinction between the Vanir and Aesir, and that alfheim just means shiny place, then what does that mean for a heathen reconstructing this? How do these worlds fit into the worldview?


It means going back to square one?

Okay, seriously now, I think it all depends on how focused you are on "getting it right". I can't imagine many Heathens will read the new scholarly material and be like: "Okay, let's ditch all the concepts we've believed in for gods know how long!" Or will they?

It's like what you said before about how Odin might not have been as significant to the tradition as was previously suspected. Don't tell the Odinists that, okay? There are some that try to turn Odin into a supergod, and I wouldn't want to be around when you break that news. :P

I'm just going to go back into my non-recon corner now...

Juniperberry

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Re: Odin and Freyr: One and the same?
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2011, 12:53:06 am »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;3479
It means going back to square one?

Okay, seriously now, I think it all depends on how focused you are on "getting it right". I can't imagine many Heathens will read the new scholarly material and be like: "Okay, let's ditch all the concepts we've believed in for gods know how long!" Or will they?


For me it's not about "getting it right", it about finding new ways to look at the slim material we have to see if it adds a new depth or layer to a worldview that enriches my life. If I can understand the relationship between Alfheim and Freyr more, and if this opens new avenues towards understanding Freyr or his place in the world more, then I'll consider it a 'win'. Regardless, the purpose is in making the effort to understand them more deeply, whether correct or incorrect. An incorrect assumption can always be rectified, not nurturing an enjoyment in exploring the lore and just taking what's there is just a waste. Imo. *shrug*
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

hlewagastir

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Re: Odin and Freyr: One and the same?
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2011, 08:10:43 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;3449
(I started to log in as 'freyr'. *rolls eyes*)
 I have a question about that. What do you think of  mundane Alfheim south(?) of Sweden, it's supposed geneaology, and the connections within the context of this convo?


Snorri tries to fit everthing and every being into neat little boxes within a midieval, Christian context.
Such as the Æsir from Asia, Vanir from Vanaheim, and Valhalla/Hel is contrasted just as Heaven and Hell. (In the regard of dying into the mount and halls of your fathers "Road To Hel" is stillt he best survey I know of).
And the Alfar are of cause from Alfheim which is a worldly place with its own location somewhere in Sweden (just like the Æsir from Asia).
Try to read his prologue; it´s a mixture of Euhemerism, deamonising and classical theory.

The best source of Snorri and his agendas, methods and theories I know of is called "I Begyndelsen Var Skriget" and is written by Henning Kure.

However these English sources are pretty neat too:
Anthony Faulkes:
-Pagan Sympathy: Attitudes to Heathendom in the Prologue to Snorra Edda.
-The Sources of Skáldskaparmál: Snorri´s Intellectual Background

Pretty sure they can be found online.


 
Quote
Hey, I work with what I have handy! :p Do you have any links to more current info on this? I have searched alfheim etc on AL but so far am not finding anything different, really.


I got Mathias (or Fyrfos) ;) I can ask him for sources.

 
Quote
I did see some mention of this as well, ex. Lokasenna. With all the disagreement about what alfheim really means, and Freyr's connection, what's the alternative? Just that Freyr was given a beautiful place? That the alfar did exist but have no real place in the lore? Maybe if we discuss what it could mean, rather than what it couldn't, I could understand your side of the argument more.  What's the new consensus, that alfar is like the Vanir in that it's just another name for the regin?


Correct on the last one, IMO.
Both Grimnismál and Lokasenna present a vide knowledege of the mythology but every time one would expect the word "vanir", "alfar" pops up.
FX. "ása oc álfa, er hér inni ero", or a variation thereof, are mentioned about 3 times in Lokasenna.
IMO, it is quiet plausible that Æsir, Alfar and Vanir are all used with the meaning of reign (there are also examples where Alfar is used to denoted dead heroes, kings and so on).
I can´t really see Alfar as the individual, well defined race Snorri vigourously insist they are.


Quote
Tho, admittedly, with Freyr being a fertility god, being gifted a "beautiful place" does tend to make as much if not more sense than being gifted elves....

Good point indeed.
And with reference to the above it would also make sense if he was given "a place of gods".

Quote
(Ok, sometimes I like puzzles and sometimes it's frustrating, heh. ;P)

 
And sometimes both;)

hlewagastir

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Re: Odin and Freyr: One and the same?
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2011, 08:23:58 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;3463
According to Snorri: Helheim is the abode of Hel, Jotunheim is the abode of the Jotuns, Vanaheim is the abode of the Vanir and, thus, Alfheim is the abode of the alfar. But if we're saying Snorri is wrong about this, and there is no distinction between the Vanir and Aesir, and that alfheim just means shiny place, then what does that mean for a heathen reconstructing this? How do these worlds fit into the worldview?

It simplifies everything!
You do not have to know 55 different worlds and subworlds.
There are only the world of men and gods and the world of jotnar and the dead (confining the dead kin to the world of jotnar might be a bit too crude, IOW, there are some greyareas too).
Innangard and utangard is what defines the boundaries.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 08:25:01 am by hlewagastir »

FollowerofOdin

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Re: Odin and Freyr: One and the same?
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2013, 08:05:52 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;967
I came across a paper recently that made a case for Odin and Freyr being the same deity. The majority of the evidence, though, related to the similarities between Freyja and Odin. Deities of the slain, seidhr, valkyries. Since Freyr and Freyja translate to Lord and Lady, could Odin have been the intended lord?

Also take into consideration the mystery surrounding the connections between Frigga and Freyja.

Thoughts?

 
I don't believe their the same. Of course that's my own personal belief and many share it. However, I'm willing to read it and tell you what I think.

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