Loremongers - was Freya really a goddess of love?

[Elding]

This might be an odd question for many, because Freya as the 'goddess of sex and beauty' is a very fundamental idea in modern heathenism. Pick up a book on vikings and you'll probably see that little tidbit of information mentioned in there somewhere. However, I have never once come across a source in the sagas that states this to be the case, nor any archaeological evidence of it. This is frankly befuddling me, because there are clearly poems that describe her as a goddess of magic, war and death, so why do modern interpretations of her focus so much on sexuality and beauty?

It is true that Freya did some sleeping around in the old stories, but no more than the rest of the gods, like Odin for example who seemed to have children in pretty much every realm... or Loki, who was the father of a wolf and the MOTHER of a horse! She might be seen as a fertility goddess because her brother was Frey, who WAS indeed a fertility god and stated as such in the sources. But unlike Frey (who had names such as 'Seed'), none of Freyas heiti's are hinting towards a role of a fertility goddess. The closest heiti of Freya is Gefn ('giver') or Hörn (flax, which sure it is a plant and might therefore be associated with fields, but it is also used to make threads and weave fabric, so, more in the realm of seidr if you ask me..), but even from that it is a very long stretch to say she's a fertility goddess. (On the other hand, she DOES have names such as 'Shaker', 'Throng' and 'Lady of the Slain' which to me suggest that she is more of a counterpart to Frey, as death is a counterpart to life, rather than sharing his role as a fertility deity.)

Are there any loremongers out there who might help me? What am I missing? WHY is Freya depicted as the goddess of love, sex and beauty, and WHERE, in the written sources or the archaeological finds? Because I'm frankly starting to think it was all made up by some modern viking-romantic scholar who liked the idea of having a Norse Venus or something. I'm really scratching my head here.

[Darkhawk]

Because I'm frankly starting to think it was all made up by some modern viking-romantic scholar who liked the idea of having a Norse Venus or something. I'm really scratching my head here.

 
The "Norse Venus" thing pinged my brain - that particular association dates back to Roman times.  (I'm basing this off the etymologies of days of the week - "Friday" = "Freya's Day" is "Venus's Day" in Romance languages.  The other days of the week that have that parallelism are Tiw/Mars, Woden/Mercury, and Thor/Jove, for the record.)

So if it's made up, it was at least made up a long time ago?

[Stormwise]

Are there any loremongers out there who might help me? What am I missing? WHY is Freya depicted as the goddess of love, sex and beauty, and WHERE, in the written sources or the archaeological finds? Because I'm frankly starting to think it was all made up by some modern viking-romantic scholar who liked the idea of having a Norse Venus or something. I'm really scratching my head here.

Former loremonger, twice retired and with a degree in reading between the lines chiming in at this point ... fair warning, I'm a bit rusty, but I might have an idea or two, just the same ;-)

Freyja is assumed to have a fertility role, first and foremost, by the nature of her being a Vanir goddess (Vanadis). With her brother, who is directly attested as a fertility god (as you point out), she upholds a concept of sacred twins that is evidenced by Njord and Nerthus (whom I believe to be Frigg, but that is another conversation). Your idea that she might be a counter-balance to her brother is something I find very interesting, and also very plausible. If so, it would be a second way of looking at the sacred twins.

While you are correct in pointing out that promiscuity was hardly limited to Freyja among the gods, it seems Freyja tends to be regarded in the lore as being a bit more promiscuous than other goddesses. Lokasenna is perhaps one of the more obvious examples; where Loki refers to Freyja riding astride her brother in front of the other gods, and accuses her of having sex with pretty much every other god or elf in Asgard. Is the promiscuity a fertility theme? As you point out, it would depend on how much a symbol of fertility one considers Odin to be. But at the same time, Freyja's promiscuity would certainly not hinder fertility - perhaps in this regard, there is another aspect to her relationship to Freyr, in that she initiates (often, apparently) the process that Freyr brings to fruition. Like her brother, she is also associated with the boar (hers is named Hildsvin); which as a symbol for the Vanir, might also be a fertility reference. With her name being very close to Frigg's, and my suspicion that Frigg may be Njord's sister-wife, I also see the likelihood that Freyja represents the maiden to Frigg's more motherly role. More than that, as far as the lore goes, there really isn't much that I can think of or remember. I think the biggest support for her involvement with fertility is her being a member of the Vanir. As for her beauty, it seems like the giants can't get enough of her and, according to Loki at least, neither can anyone else.

My personal belief, when it comes to Freyja, is that she represents intoxication on all levels, to include that of an intoxicating sort of beauty. Mead comes to mind. I think this is why she was so poorly treated when she came to the gods as Gullveig ... her beauty drove them mad. What this might have to do with fertility is anyone's guess; but then I also do not always subscribe to everything the lore tells us about the gods (like I said, a former loremonger in retirement, who likes to read between the lines :-) )

[RecycledBenedict]

This might be an odd question for many, because Freya as the 'goddess of sex and beauty' is a very fundamental idea in modern heathenism. Pick up a book on vikings and you'll probably see that little tidbit of information mentioned in there somewhere. However, I have never once come across a source in the sagas that states this to be the case, nor any archaeological evidence of it. This is frankly befuddling me, because there are clearly poems that describe her as a goddess of magic, war and death, so why do modern interpretations of her focus so much on sexuality and beauty?

It is true that Freya did some sleeping around in the old stories, but no more than the rest of the gods, like Odin for example who seemed to have children in pretty much every realm... or Loki, who was the father of a wolf and the MOTHER of a horse! She might be seen as a fertility goddess because her brother was Frey, who WAS indeed a fertility god and stated as such in the sources. But unlike Frey (who had names such as 'Seed'), none of Freyas heiti's are hinting towards a role of a fertility goddess. The closest heiti of Freya is Gefn ('giver') or Hörn (flax, which sure it is a plant and might therefore be associated with fields, but it is also used to make threads and weave fabric, so, more in the realm of seidr if you ask me..), but even from that it is a very long stretch to say she's a fertility goddess. (On the other hand, she DOES have names such as 'Shaker', 'Throng' and 'Lady of the Slain' which to me suggest that she is more of a counterpart to Frey, as death is a counterpart to life, rather than sharing his role as a fertility deity.)

Are there any loremongers out there who might help me? What am I missing? WHY is Freya depicted as the goddess of love, sex and beauty, and WHERE, in the written sources or the archaeological finds? Because I'm frankly starting to think it was all made up by some modern viking-romantic scholar who liked the idea of having a Norse Venus or something. I'm really scratching my head here.

Regardless if she was a Norse Venus or not, she was not limited to that function. There is more to her.

Together with Odin, she was the protector of seid and the practitioners of seid.

While Frigg - residing in Fensalar (the sunken halls, the halls of the fens) - was associated with water, bogs and the deep, Freya - residing in Folkvang (fields of the clouds; See German Wolke and Swedish Möllevången in order to compare etymology) - seem to have been associated to celestial phenomena and the heights.

Freya's chariot of cats seem to be historically related to the feline thrones used by several goddesses of the Levant, such as Cybele.

[Elding]

Former loremonger, twice retired and with a degree in reading between the lines chiming in at this point ... fair warning, I'm a bit rusty, but I might have an idea or two, just the same ;-)

Freyja is assumed to have a fertility role, first and foremost, by the nature of her being a Vanir goddess (Vanadis). With her brother, who is directly attested as a fertility god (as you point out), she upholds a concept of sacred twins that is evidenced by Njord and Nerthus (whom I believe to be Frigg, but that is another conversation). Your idea that she might be a counter-balance to her brother is something I find very interesting, and also very plausible. If so, it would be a second way of looking at the sacred twins.

 
Why would the Vanir automatically have a fertility role? Njord does not, Kvasir does not, and neither do Heimdallr or Ullr who have been theorized as members of the Vanir. Seems to me like the Vanir being associated with fertility, is because they are associated with Frey and Freya themselves, to be honest. I could find very little written about the Vanir or Vanaheim in general, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

While you are correct in pointing out that promiscuity was hardly limited to Freyja among the gods, it seems Freyja tends to be regarded in the lore as being a bit more promiscuous than other goddesses. Lokasenna is perhaps one of the more obvious examples; where Loki refers to Freyja riding astride her brother in front of the other gods, and accuses her of having sex with pretty much every other god or elf in Asgard.

True, but the Lokasenna actually contradicts the idea of Freya being the most promiscuous of the goddesses - that, according to Loki's accusations, might rather be Idunn:

Loki spake:
17. "Be silent, Ithun! | thou art, I say,
Of women most lustful in love,
Since thou thy washed-bright | arms didst wind
About thy brother's slayer."

Is the promiscuity a fertility theme? As you point out, it would depend on how much a symbol of fertility one considers Odin to be. But at the same time, Freyja's promiscuity would certainly not hinder fertility - perhaps in this regard, there is another aspect to her relationship to Freyr, in that she initiates (often, apparently) the process that Freyr brings to fruition. Like her brother, she is also associated with the boar (hers is named Hildsvin); which as a symbol for the Vanir, might also be a fertility reference. With her name being very close to Frigg's, and my suspicion that Frigg may be Njord's sister-wife, I also see the likelihood that Freyja represents the maiden to Frigg's more motherly role. More than that, as far as the lore goes, there really isn't much that I can think of or remember. I think the biggest support for her involvement with fertility is her being a member of the Vanir. As for her beauty, it seems like the giants can't get enough of her and, according to Loki at least, neither can anyone else.

Well, sexuality in the viking age seem to have been a pretty open thing. I've read something about horrified Christian priests, who were trying to hold conversations with viking people but being bothered by a couple doing their thing in the background of that very room. In the context of a pre-christian religion, who did not have our modern perception of sex as anything bad or even something to be hidden away, I would not say that promiscuity is an indicator of anything TBH, except for Freya lacking a little in regards of personal restriction. But fair enough, I suppose. I can see how people would make that association, though personally I do not very much agree with it.

My personal belief, when it comes to Freyja, is that she represents intoxication on all levels, to include that of an intoxicating sort of beauty. Mead comes to mind. I think this is why she was so poorly treated when she came to the gods as Gullveig ... her beauty drove them mad. What this might have to do with fertility is anyone's guess; but then I also do not always subscribe to everything the lore tells us about the gods (like I said, a former loremonger in retirement, who likes to read between the lines :-) )

 
That's a fair guess. My personal view of the Vanir are that they are more associated with the animal realm (the Aesir representing the conscious mind, with Odin being the foremost of them).. which would explain Freyas promiscuity, and Frey going to battle at Ragnarök armed with nothing but a deer antler. I do like your theory, though.

[Elding]

Regardless if she was a Norse Venus or not, she was not limited to that function. There is more to her.

Together with Odin, she was the protector of seid and the practitioners of seid.

While Frigg - residing in Fensalar (the sunken halls, the halls of the fens) - was associated with water, bogs and the deep, Freya - residing in Folkvang (fields of the clouds; See German Wolke and Swedish Möllevången in order to compare etymology) - seem to have been associated to celestial phenomena and the heights.

Freya's chariot of cats seem to be historically related to the feline thrones used by several goddesses of the Levant, such as Cybele.

 
Yes, this is actually why I am asking. Reading the lore, it seems to me like sex and fertility should frankly be more of an afterthought to the more important stuff - like getting first pick from the dead (getting her pick even before Odin choose his Einherjar) and teaching magic to all of mankind. But reading conteporary books, it seems to be the other way around - "Oh, Freya is the goddess of LOVE and BEAUTY and FERTILITY. Look, she slept with all of these people! I guess she might've had something to do with death, though... hmm, and there was this part about magic, I think, but that's not really as important..."

Frankly, that is the part that confuse me. The lore tells me one thing, contemporary writing another thing entirely. But I guess it all boils down to history being written by men, lol :B

It was an interesting parallel you drew to Cybele, however. If I remember correctly, Cybele had a trangender magic cult... hmmm... :

[RecycledBenedict]

Why would the Vanir automatically have a fertility role? Njord does not, Kvasir does not, and neither do Heimdallr or Ullr who have been theorized as members of the Vanir.

In the case of Ull, it is probably not just a hypothesis. In Grimnismal 5 Ull and Freyr seem to be the same person, otherwise the next strophe wouldn't begin with 'A third home is there' but with 'A fourth home is there'.

My personal view of the Vanir are that they are more associated with the animal realm (the Aesir representing the conscious mind, with Odin being the foremost of them).. which would explain Freyas promiscuity, and Frey going to battle at Ragnarök armed with nothing but a deer antler. I do like your theory, though.

I'm not sure if it is that simple. Why does Frey sit in the seat of Odin in the prose introduction to Skirnismal?

[RecycledBenedict]

But reading conteporary books, it seems to be the other way around - "Oh, Freya is the goddess of LOVE and BEAUTY and FERTILITY. Look, she slept with all of these people! I guess she might've had something to do with death, though... hmm, and there was this part about magic, I think, but that's not really as important..."

I haven't read Britt Marie Näsström's book Nordiska gudinnor: Nytolkningar av den förkristna mytologin, yet (it was published five years ago), but perhaps that overview might give a more balanced view?

And by the way: Do you suffer from insomnia just like I do some nights?

[Elding]

In the case of Ull, it is probably not just a hypothesis. In Grimnismal 5 Ull and Freyr seem to be the same person, otherwise the next strophe wouldn't begin with 'A third home is there' but with 'A fourth home is there'.

Hmm.. that is actually an interesting point. Or perhaps they are different gods, but Ydalir is a location within Alfheim?

I'm not sure if it is that simple. Why does Frey sit in the seat of Odin in the prose introduction to Skirnismal?

 
Oh, it is never that simple, that's what I love about the Norse gods! Even Odin, who is an eternal seeker of knowledge, is represented by wolves and ravens, rather fierce animals on their own.
I base the idea on the fact that the Aesir, shapeshifters as they might be, never shift into animal form. It seems to be the domain of the Vanir, dwarves and jotunn.

[Elding]

I haven't read Britt Marie Näsström's book Nordiska gudinnor: Nytolkningar av den förkristna mytologin, yet (it was published five years ago), but perhaps that overview might give a more balanced view?

And by the way: Do you suffer from insomnia just like I do some nights?

 
I haven't read it, either. Maybe I will. Thanks for the recommendation, it does sound like something I would pick up if I saw it in a bookstore.

Not anymore - I used to. These days it's more along the line of WHY HAVEN'T I GONE TO SLEEP ALREADY AAARGH JUST FIVE MORE MINUTES... *sigh*

[RecycledBenedict]

It was an interesting parallel you drew to Cybele, however. If I remember correctly, Cybele had a trangender magic cult... hmmm... :

Magic? No. Mystery? Yes.

In Imperial Rome a mystery religion emerged around Cybele and her divine or semi-divine lover Attis. The Cybele clergy were eunuchs in women's dresses. In art, Cybele was depicted in a chariot pulled by lions or sitting on a lion throne.

That artistic convention wasn't unique for Cybele. In Syria, the goddess Atargatis was depicted sitting on a throne flanked by felines.

Long before that, about 7000 or 6000 BCE, figurines from Catal Höyük depict an obese female sitting on a throne flanked by lions or other large felines. There is some debate going on if the figurines served a religious purpose or not, but even if they didn't, their artistic motif foreshadows the way goddesses were depicted millennia later in the same region. There might have been some sort of continuity.

[RecycledBenedict]

Even Odin, who is an eternal seeker of knowledge, is represented by wolves and ravens, rather fierce animals on their own.

Wolves. Ravens. Horses. Snakes.

A funny thing about this, is that the Celtic god Lugus, Lleu or Lugh is associated with wolves, dogs, ravens, cocks, snakes and horses. I see a connection here. Oh: And both of them use a spear as weapon of choice.

I base the idea on the fact that the Aesir, shapeshifters as they might be, never shift into animal form. It seems to be the domain of the Vanir, dwarves and jotunn.

Never shift into animal form? Odin shifts into the form of a snake, and then a bird of prey, when he steals the mead of poetry from the Suttung family.

[Stormwise]

Guess I'm even more rusty than I thought

Why would the Vanir automatically have a fertility role? Njord does not, Kvasir does not, and neither do Heimdallr or Ullr who have been theorized as members of the Vanir. Seems to me like the Vanir being associated with fertility, is because they are associated with Frey and Freya themselves, to be honest. I could find very little written about the Vanir or Vanaheim in general, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

The Vanir are typically associated with fertility because this is a function of nature, and the Vanir are associated with nature in just about everything I've read about them. Njord, I would argue, has more to do with fertility than you might suspect. One hint in this direction, since this thread also brings up associations with gods from other pantheons, was the Old Icelandic translations of Roman mythology, that put Njord's name down for Saturn - who was, among other things, associated with agriculture and renewal (which I take as a strong fertility reference). This tidbit can be found in the Wikipedia entry for Njord. Another reference that stays strictly in Norse lore is Njord's role in Heimskringla, chapter nine - here the reference is more direct. You might disagree, but this, combined with just a whole lot of time and energy put into working with this god, are the main reasons for why I consider Njord to have something to do with fertility. Kvasir is not purely Vanir, having been created by the combined spittle of Aesir and Vanir. Heimdallr - if you are referring to what I think you are referring to - is also only half-Vanir from this perspective. The only reference to Ullr's parentage I'm aware of also has Ullr as being at least partially Aesir. I bring this up because I think it logical that these gods took on non-Vanir associations because they were not entirely of the Vanir.

True, but the Lokasenna actually contradicts the idea of Freya being the most promiscuous of the goddesses - that, according to Loki's accusations, might rather be Idunn:

Loki spake:
17. "Be silent, Ithun! | thou art, I say,
Of women most lustful in love,
Since thou thy washed-bright | arms didst wind
About thy brother's slayer."

But in stanza 30 of Lokasenna, Loki accuses Freyja of having slept with more than just one person ... more like everyone in the hall. Idunn beds 1 slayer of brother, Freyja beds 1 hall full of gods and elves. The 'most lustful' reference did not have to do with the number of Idunn's lovers; but rather the severity of her transgression in choosing one particular lover.

Well, sexuality in the viking age seem to have been a pretty open thing. I've read something about horrified Christian priests, who were trying to hold conversations with viking people but being bothered by a couple doing their thing in the background of that very room. In the context of a pre-christian religion, who did not have our modern perception of sex as anything bad or even something to be hidden away, I would not say that promiscuity is an indicator of anything TBH, except for Freya lacking a little in regards of personal restriction. But fair enough, I suppose. I can see how people would make that association, though personally I do not very much agree with it.

Then it's a difference of personal opinion about the role sex plays in fertility, no biggie

That's a fair guess. My personal view of the Vanir are that they are more associated with the animal realm (the Aesir representing the conscious mind, with Odin being the foremost of them).. which would explain Freyas promiscuity, and Frey going to battle at Ragnarök armed with nothing but a deer antler. I do like your theory, though.

In the end, we are discussing references in the lore, which are themselves in many cases incomplete remnants of other peoples' theories. Your theory, my theory, just theory; but you asked for things to point out why Freyja is associated with fertility, and I offered what came to mind.

[Tom]

This might be an odd question for many, because Freya as the 'goddess of sex and beauty' is a very fundamental idea in modern heathenism. Pick up a book on vikings and you'll probably see that little tidbit of information mentioned in there somewhere. However, I have never once come across a source in the sagas that states this to be the case, nor any archaeological evidence of it. This is frankly befuddling me, because there are clearly poems that describe her as a goddess of magic, war and death, so why do modern interpretations of her focus so much on sexuality and beauty?

It is true that Freya did some sleeping around in the old stories, but no more than the rest of the gods, like Odin for example who seemed to have children in pretty much every realm... or Loki, who was the father of a wolf and the MOTHER of a horse! She might be seen as a fertility goddess because her brother was Frey, who WAS indeed a fertility god and stated as such in the sources. But unlike Frey (who had names such as 'Seed'), none of Freyas heiti's are hinting towards a role of a fertility goddess. The closest heiti of Freya is Gefn ('giver') or Hörn (flax, which sure it is a plant and might therefore be associated with fields, but it is also used to make threads and weave fabric, so, more in the realm of seidr if you ask me..), but even from that it is a very long stretch to say she's a fertility goddess. (On the other hand, she DOES have names such as 'Shaker', 'Throng' and 'Lady of the Slain' which to me suggest that she is more of a counterpart to Frey, as death is a counterpart to life, rather than sharing his role as a fertility deity.)

Are there any loremongers out there who might help me? What am I missing? WHY is Freya depicted as the goddess of love, sex and beauty, and WHERE, in the written sources or the archaeological finds? Because I'm frankly starting to think it was all made up by some modern viking-romantic scholar who liked the idea of having a Norse Venus or something. I'm really scratching my head here.

You know, I find this intriguing because yesterday, I was asking myself why I never pray to Freya as a goddess of love. For help with the marital arts and helping my cat, yes, but not love. Maybe to some people she has shown this face, but not to others.

Though I also fully believe that gods do evolve over time, so just because it isn't in the lore doesn't mean she can't have that role. Honestly, she is a powerful goddess whose power could also include owning her own sexuality.

[HeartShadow]

You know, I find this intriguing because yesterday, I was asking myself why I never pray to Freya as a goddess of love. For help with the marital arts and helping my cat, yes, but not love. Maybe to some people she has shown this face, but not to others.

Though I also fully believe that gods do evolve over time, so just because it isn't in the lore doesn't mean she can't have that role. Honestly, she is a powerful goddess whose power could also include owning her own sexuality.

 
...I'm wondering if /owns her own sexuality/ is the key, here.

It's HERS.  which means she MUST be about sex - because that's how it works for goddesses that own their own sexuality.  Can't own your own sexuality and have it just be there - it's all or nothing.