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Author Topic: So. I feel like an idiot  (Read 5828 times)

Sage

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Re: So. I feel like an idiot
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2013, 06:08:03 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;107712
I'm probably one of the most orthopraxier-than-thou snobs you'll meet.


Which explains so very much.

Quote
It becomes a joke, sinking to the level of some fundamentalist retard.


Yeah, somehow I don't think you desperately needed to use that last word as much as you think you did.
Maker, though the darkness comes upon me,
I shall embrace the light. I shall weather the storm.
I shall endure.
What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

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Jack

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Re: So. I feel like an idiot
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2013, 07:20:35 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;107712
It becomes a joke, sinking to the level of some fundamentalist retard. If you can't tolerate the fact that I don't believe what you believe, you can kiss that ass end of my Sunna idol and get out of my hof.

 
Your hof? I would think, if this is anybody's hof, it's Randall's.
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Hyacinth Belle

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Re: So. I feel like an idiot
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2013, 07:30:34 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;107712
My studies of pre-christian religion has not suggested to me that they were orthodoxic. When I hear neo-pagans complaining like a bunch of evangelical Christians about all the horrible people who don't believe Odin exists then the religion is trivialized to me. It becomes a joke, sinking to the level of some fundamentalist retard. If you can't tolerate the fact that I don't believe what you believe, you can kiss that ass end of my Sunna idol and get out of my hof.

Wow, what?...

Now you've compared us to evangelical Christians? And "retards"? Lovely. Keep digging, buddy.

We can tolerate what you believe, IF you say it in a respectful way. However, it seems to be you who can't tolerate what many here believe.

And when we have divergent beliefs, the route to peace isn't usually in jumping to tell someone to "kiss that ass end of my Sunna idol and get out of my hof"... colorful though it may be.
"Silent and thoughtful a prince\'s son should be / and bold in fighting; / cheerful and merry every man should be / until he waits for death." ~ Havamal, stanza 15

RandallS

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Re: So. I feel like an idiot
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2013, 10:18:28 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;107712
About the "this SIG is intended for practitioners of Asatru/Heathenry" bit, I'm always surprised by how many non-Asatruarar/Heathens post in this SIG. If the YES-pleasian can post here, so can I.

My studies of pre-christian religion has not suggested to me that they were orthodoxic. When I hear neo-pagans complaining like a bunch of evangelical Christians about all the horrible people who don't believe Odin exists then the religion is trivialized to me. It becomes a joke, sinking to the level of some fundamentalist retard.

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Re the first quoted paragraph: That's not your decision. You are  not staff and have been warned before about pretending to be staff. Do  not ever attempt again to say what is and is not allowed on this forum.

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bobthesane

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Re: So. I feel like an idiot
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2013, 10:57:45 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;107712
About the "hard polytheists" bit, that reminds me of a blog post by Galina Krasskova (don't remember the title) in which she said that only hard polytheists should be permitted to practice Asatru/Heathenry. Is that your opinion?

Holy crap. Okay. Where do I start. First I suppose I should get my own anger under control that you would lump me in with that group.
So.
Rather than accept that you are talking to a hard polytheist as a religious practitioner, you choose to imply that hard polytheism is in fact something 'bad'.

I never said that non-hard polytheists could not be heathens. However, the first word in this SIG title is 'Asatru'. This word, by it's very definition, means someone who believes in the gods as beings, not gods as symbols. So, yes, by that definition someone who is an atheist CAN NOT be Asatru. You can be heathen, if you hold to heathen values (which you have demonstrated a poor understanding of, thus far in this thread).

Quote from: Materialist;107712
About the "this SIG is intended for practitioners of Asatru/Heathenry" bit, I'm always surprised by how many non-Asatruarar/Heathens post in this SIG. If the YES-pleasian can post here, so can I. For my part, anyway, I practice Forn Sidhr as part of my religion. I'm probably one of the most orthopraxier-than-thou snobs you'll meet.

Non-Asatruar are welcome to post here, of course. They also are respectful of our beliefs and space, just as WE are expected to be of theirs in spaces that are declared frithsteads of their own. You, for someone who claims to practice Forn-sedr (never seen it spelled with an 'i') appear to be woefully unknowning of how a guest should behave in a hall, even a virtual one such as this. The fact that you also chose to barge in proclaiming to be 'heathener than thou' does not speak well for your character. Given that this is all I have to judge you on, so far you aren't representing yourself, your faith, and your case very well to me.


Quote from: Materialist;107712
My studies of pre-christian religion has not suggested to me that they were orthodoxic. When I hear neo-pagans complaining like a bunch of evangelical Christians about all the horrible people who don't believe Odin exists then the religion is trivialized to me. It becomes a joke, sinking to the level of some fundamentalist retard. If you can't tolerate the fact that I don't believe what you believe, you can kiss that ass end of my Sunna idol and get out of my hof.

Oh, I would beg to differ. Start with the following books. I will also admit that I am unabashedly stealing this list from my friend Jill, one of the hosts of Raven Radio. A finer and more educated heathen than I. these books will detail exactly how our heathen ancestors were orthodoxic. Yes, I have read all o fthem and own my own copies of most of them.

Germanization of Medieval Christianity by James Russel
Gods and Myths of Northern Europe by HR Ellis Davidson
Cold Counsel edited by Karen Swanson
Women in Old Norse Society by Jenny Jochens
Piece of Horse Liver by Jon Hnefill Adalsteinsson
The Culture of Teutons by Gronbech
Before France and Germany by Geary
Gods of Ancient Northmen by Dumezil
Dialogues with the Viking Age by Erikson
Gods and Priests by Chadwick
Road to Hel by HR Ellis Davison
Anything by Simek, Gunnell or a host of other modern scholars.

Now. on to your next point, that my belief that Odin is an actual being somehow trivializes YOUR opinion, I would point out to you that this entire argument started not because I demanded that YOU accept MY gods, but that you declared MY gods to be nothing more than human-made constructs.

YOU came in here trivializing MY beliefs.

I look forward to your response.

Asch

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Re: So. I feel like an idiot
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2013, 01:55:48 am »
Quote from: bobthesane;107753
Holy crap. Okay. Where do I start. First I suppose I should get my own anger under control that you would lump me in with that group.
So.
Rather than accept that you are talking to a hard polytheist as a religious practitioner, you choose to imply that hard polytheism is in fact something 'bad'.

I never said that non-hard polytheists could not be heathens. However, the first word in this SIG title is 'Asatru'. This word, by it's very definition, means someone who believes in the gods as beings, not gods as symbols. So, yes, by that definition someone who is an atheist CAN NOT be Asatru. You can be heathen, if you hold to heathen values (which you have demonstrated a poor understanding of, thus far in this thread).



Non-Asatruar are welcome to post here, of course. They also are respectful of our beliefs and space, just as WE are expected to be of theirs in spaces that are declared frithsteads of their own. You, for someone who claims to practice Forn-sedr (never seen it spelled with an 'i') appear to be woefully unknowning of how a guest should behave in a hall, even a virtual one such as this. The fact that you also chose to barge in proclaiming to be 'heathener than thou' does not speak well for your character. Given that this is all I have to judge you on, so far you aren't representing yourself, your faith, and your case very well to me.




Oh, I would beg to differ. Start with the following books. I will also admit that I am unabashedly stealing this list from my friend Jill, one of the hosts of Raven Radio. A finer and more educated heathen than I. these books will detail exactly how our heathen ancestors were orthodoxic. Yes, I have read all o fthem and own my own copies of most of them.

Germanization of Medieval Christianity by James Russel
Gods and Myths of Northern Europe by HR Ellis Davidson
Cold Counsel edited by Karen Swanson
Women in Old Norse Society by Jenny Jochens
Piece of Horse Liver by Jon Hnefill Adalsteinsson
The Culture of Teutons by Gronbech
Before France and Germany by Geary
Gods of Ancient Northmen by Dumezil
Dialogues with the Viking Age by Erikson
Gods and Priests by Chadwick
Road to Hel by HR Ellis Davison
Anything by Simek, Gunnell or a host of other modern scholars.

Now. on to your next point, that my belief that Odin is an actual being somehow trivializes YOUR opinion, I would point out to you that this entire argument started not because I demanded that YOU accept MY gods, but that you declared MY gods to be nothing more than human-made constructs.

YOU came in here trivializing MY beliefs.

I look forward to your response.

 
:thup: *slow clap of awe*

ALiteraryLady

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Re: So. I feel like an idiot
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2013, 08:29:38 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;90003
All this time I thought Gods controlled/were the forces of nature (ex. Thor is Thunder), and that the giants were outside forces that tried to disrupt that.  

But I was reading in "Giants of Teutonic Religion" that the giants are all forces of nature, and the gods mitigate and control their influence.

"One way that giants are associated with natural forces or events is by “personifying” such forces or events, while deities control or mitigate. Examples of this can be found in the Eddas. For example, the giant Logi is wildfire but the god Njörð stills fire. Another example: the giant Elli is old age, but the god of health and strength (Þórr) slows down its onset (See Gundarsson, 1993a; Karlsdóttir et al, 1993;Young, 1954: 51, 77, 78).

Another function of giants is to automatically cause. Thus, Vindlóni (Wind-Cool) is the (automatic) father of winter, but several deities could be called upon to mitigate weather for human benefit. A giant called Svásuð (Agreeable) is the father of summer, which comes relentlessly year after year. In the OERP Book,Stanfield (2000a) argues that Night and Day are giants. (See also the sidebar, “Sun and Moon”)."

Obviously I feel stupid, but this explains things so much better. Did anyone else have that dynamic backwards? :ashamed:

 
I wouldn't consider you stupid by any means, I think the moment of "aha!" that you're describing happens to all of us at least a handful of times and should happen more often (at least in the name of keeping life interesting and multidimensional for us) to keep us on our toes.

I do find this post to be interesting, because I've also had a similar mindset as far as X deity does this to the weather, because there is that line of thought present in Christianity and other religions. I like the idea of the giants being in charge of the weather, I guess even before I really started exploring Heathenry weather wasn't intense like the God/desses were, but there was something raw and explosive about them that gave them a sort of power that was somewhere in between nothing and God/desses.

Thanks for sharing this insight.

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