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Author Topic: Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.  (Read 5548 times)

Lokabrenna

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Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.
« on: July 12, 2011, 07:42:28 pm »
I have a feeling that I might get some flak for this post, so I apologize in advance if I offend anyone. This post is going to discuss several issues at once, so please bear with me while I try to separate my thoughts into neat little categories.

Having said that, I'm looking for opinions on charity, aid, service rendered to others, that sort of thing. Obviously, giving to charity isn't a requirement of Heathenry (the way it is in, say, Islam), but I've heard some interesting comments on this subject, including:

"If you help the weak, you become weak."
"Only help your family and kin."
 
I know there's a lot of focus within Heathenry on helping the community (particularly one's local community, especially one's kin) but the attitude espoused by the above statements seems a little callous, in my opinion. Perhaps it makes sense with the concept of ingard vs. utgard (or not), but it still just seems like the tired old: "Well, maybe if the poor would just work harder, they wouldn't be poor."

I'm also thinking in terms of global poverty and "aid" in general. Is there some justification to help on a global scale (not that everyone will see it as a religious thing, of course). I'm just curious because, again, I see a lot of things being done at the local level, and Pagans in general don't have the resources of, say, the Catholic Church, but there seems to be this resistance to helping out on a global scale, or maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places on the internet.

In short, what's your opinion regarding charity, aid, helping the less fortunate, local vs. global focus, etc?

Juniperberry

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Re: Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2011, 09:11:43 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;4359
I have a feeling that I might get some flak for this post, so I apologize in advance if I offend anyone. This post is going to discuss several issues at once, so please bear with me while I try to separate my thoughts into neat little categories.

Having said that, I'm looking for opinions on charity, aid, service rendered to others, that sort of thing. Obviously, giving to charity isn't a requirement of Heathenry (the way it is in, say, Islam), but I've heard some interesting comments on this subject, including:

"If you help the weak, you become weak."
"Only help your family and kin."
 
I know there's a lot of focus within Heathenry on helping the community (particularly one's local community, especially one's kin) but the attitude espoused by the above statements seems a little callous, in my opinion. Perhaps it makes sense with the concept of ingard vs. utgard (or not), but it still just seems like the tired old: "Well, maybe if the poor would just work harder, they wouldn't be poor."

I'm also thinking in terms of global poverty and "aid" in general. Is there some justification to help on a global scale (not that everyone will see it as a religious thing, of course). I'm just curious because, again, I see a lot of things being done at the local level, and Pagans in general don't have the resources of, say, the Catholic Church, but there seems to be this resistance to helping out on a global scale, or maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places on the internet.

In short, what's your opinion regarding charity, aid, helping the less fortunate, local vs. global focus, etc?

 
What forums are you going to??? ;)

I think the idea of inneryard and outeryard is that inneryard belongs to YOU and your relationships. You don't base your inneryard philosophy and ethics off of someone else's.   They're outeryard to you.

So if YOU think charity is important and ethical than it is. There aren't "yard rules" that apply to all heathens. Giving to charity or not doesn't have anything to do with being heathen or having a heathen worldview.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Asch

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Re: Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2011, 09:15:24 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;4359
I have a feeling that I might get some flak for this post, so I apologize in advance if I offend anyone. This post is going to discuss several issues at once, so please bear with me while I try to separate my thoughts into neat little categories.

Having said that, I'm looking for opinions on charity, aid, service rendered to others, that sort of thing. Obviously, giving to charity isn't a requirement of Heathenry (the way it is in, say, Islam), but I've heard some interesting comments on this subject, including:

"If you help the weak, you become weak."
"Only help your family and kin."
 
I know there's a lot of focus within Heathenry on helping the community (particularly one's local community, especially one's kin) but the attitude espoused by the above statements seems a little callous, in my opinion. Perhaps it makes sense with the concept of ingard vs. utgard (or not), but it still just seems like the tired old: "Well, maybe if the poor would just work harder, they wouldn't be poor."

I'm also thinking in terms of global poverty and "aid" in general. Is there some justification to help on a global scale (not that everyone will see it as a religious thing, of course). I'm just curious because, again, I see a lot of things being done at the local level, and Pagans in general don't have the resources of, say, the Catholic Church, but there seems to be this resistance to helping out on a global scale, or maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places on the internet.

In short, what's your opinion regarding charity, aid, helping the less fortunate, local vs. global focus, etc?

 
Out of curiosity - and I haven't read much on this - but was charity even needed for Heathens? I mean, if kin etc were so important and the community as a whole then wouldn't there have been safeguards to protect them built within the community? I mean, unless someone had been outlawed wouldn't their kin or the community have had a built in mechanism to assist and provide as appropriate?

Juniperberry

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Re: Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2011, 09:27:41 pm »
Quote from: Asch;4394
Out of curiosity - and I haven't read much on this - but was charity even needed for Heathens? I mean, if kin etc were so important and the community as a whole then wouldn't there have been safeguards to protect them built within the community? I mean, unless someone had been outlawed wouldn't their kin or the community have had a built in mechanism to assist and provide as appropriate?

 

According to Tacitus, amongst tribes it was wrong for a person to have to ask for hospitality and charity. It was like an open door policy: Jim goes into Bob's house and is entitled to whatever Bob has and the next day Bob can go into Dave's house and do the same.

According to the Havamal a traveller should be able to expect hospitality...at the same time people travelling without kith or kin were suspicious because of outlawing.

Generally the idea is to take care of people- its a hard world and we're all trying to survive. A lot of heathens can be assholes, tho. They take a few concepts and run, turning into racist xenophobes.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Asch

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Re: Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2011, 09:34:06 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;4398
According to Tacitus, amongst tribes it was wrong for a person to have to ask for hospitality and charity. It was like an open door policy: Jim goes into Bob's house and is entitled to whatever Bob has and the next day Bob can go into Dave's house and do the same.

According to the Havamal a traveller should be able to expect hospitality...at the same time people travelling without kith or kin were suspicious because of outlawing.


See, that makes sense to me I don't think it would ever work in our society but it also makes the inner yard/outer yard dynamic make more sense too since with such an open society some boundaries would have to be set up.

Quote
Generally the idea is to take care of people- its a hard world and we're all trying to survive. A lot of heathens can be assholes, tho. They take a few concepts and run, turning into racist xenophobes.


Ugh that happens to so many philosophies/religions. The logical extreme is pretty much never accurate and it's dangerously easy to justify horrific acts by cherry picking logic and justification. Blech.

Juniperberry

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Re: Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2011, 10:54:12 pm »
Quote from: Asch;4405
See, that makes sense to me I don't think it would ever work in our society but it also makes the inner yard/outer yard dynamic make more sense too since with such an open society some boundaries would have to be set up.


There's a fun book called "Days in Midgard" in which the author creates present day myths based on the Norse gods (well, from banishment to present day). One of the stories is about a poor farmer and his wife who welcome a scruffy one-eyed old man into their home at winter.  The farmer is very hospitable and the wife is stingy. I don't want to give it away, but its a good tale about charity.

Innergard is about family and those you consider family and the way you operate to maintain peace and happiness. Someone really has to prove their worth and character to become part of that. Its not about shutting the rest of the world out, its not about letting others suffer. You're hospitable, polite but you keep up boundaries until you know someone. Once you do, it should be a supportive and productive relationship based on a mutual feeling of trust and reciprocity. Letting kids starve in Africa has nothing to do with your inneryard...unless you become a weirdo and let your own children suffer and starve because of your attention to it, I guess.

I bet Bob could explain this a lot better and clear up anything I'm wrong on. :)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

bobthesane

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Re: Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2011, 06:53:34 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;4427
Innergard is about family and those you consider family and the way you operate to maintain peace and happiness. Someone really has to prove their worth and character to become part of that. Its not about shutting the rest of the world out, its not about letting others suffer. You're hospitable, polite but you keep up boundaries until you know someone. Once you do, it should be a supportive and productive relationship based on a mutual feeling of trust and reciprocity. Letting kids starve in Africa has nothing to do with your inneryard...unless you become a weirdo and let your own children suffer and starve because of your attention to it, I guess.

I bet Bob could explain this a lot better and clear up anything I'm wrong on. :)

Hehe, I will try, but you did pretty good there :)

First things first: Lokabrenna, where the F*** have you been hanging out to get such immensely messed up quotes???

"If you help the weak, you become weak."

REALLY??? Holy shite but I hope those assholes never come near me or mine. That is sooooo not heathen. Community is what is important. Family, friends, community. By helping others we help ourselves, because a strong community is able to pull together in times of great need to assist ALL members. This is about mutual defense and support. My kindred Yule before last went out to assist at a soup kitchen, for example. A Christian one at that. Why? Because by doing so we strengthened our community that little bit more. Hospitality is a strong virtue, and one that repays those who give it in ways often times unseen but always present.

Helping the weak does not make us weak, it makes us ALL stronger. Geez. That statement up there is about the closest I've seen yet to something I would consider f'ing sacrilege. I am so flabbergasted that a supposed heathen would say something like that that I am beyond disgusted to purely bemused.

Now, as for concepts of innergardh vs. uttengardh, or inner yard and outer yard, these merely delineate where one stands with regards to how far I would trust a person. Someone who is inner yard, to me, I would trust with the lives of my family. They are welcome to literally any resource I have at my disposal, because I know they will not abuse, misuse, or use up those things unless their need is just that dire, which as we all know happens. These are people whom I wouldn't draw on if I came home to find them sitting alone on my couch watching tv and drinking my beer. They are welcome to use those things without which my family would be harmed because I know they would only take them if their need was so great that not having it would have worse consequences. And I know they would repay or replace it as soon as humanly possible. In other words, I *trust* them.

Outer yard folk are the community at large. They are welcome to those resources I expressly declare to be available for their use. A backyard BBQ with brats and brews, for example. Or canned goods for a food drive. Things that I know will likely be put to good use but that will not harm my family to give away. I trust them so long as I have my eyes on them. But if I were to come home and find such a person sitting alone on my couch watching my tv and drinking my beer, they will find themselves staring down the barrel of my 1911 and had better have a *damned* good reason for being where they are. These are people I will gladly help out in times of great need, but not at the expense of my own family.

Then there are those who are beyond the outer yard. They are met with promise of violence at my gates. They are outlaws, those that have trespassed against me so severely that I cannot abide their presence. Luckily these are few and far between.

Hopefully that makes a bit of sense as far as my own personal take on the subject :)

Lokabrenna

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Re: Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2011, 07:13:51 pm »
Quote from: bobthesane;4641
Hehe, I will try, but you did pretty good there :)
First things first: Lokabrenna, where the F*** have you been hanging out to get such immensely messed up quotes???


Well, I shouldn't name names, but while I was browsing around in some of the dark corners of the net, I found one forum that had comments like (and I quote): "Could you please type like a white person?"

Wat.

Now, the way you explained inner vs. outer yard makes sense to me. I highly doubt anyone would trust someone who just helped themselves to the contents of their fridge, for instance, that's just rude, and I think society in general distrusts criminals and other unsavory types, sounds like common sense to me.
 
It seems I just keep running into bad apples. Good thing this SIG exists to set me straight!

Hyacinth Belle

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Re: Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2011, 11:14:44 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;4647
Well, I shouldn't name names, but while I was browsing around in some of the dark corners of the net, I found one forum that had comments like (and I quote): "Could you please type like a white person?"

:mad: WTH does that even mean? You will not find that here or at any other respectable place, heathen or not.

Let's not dwell on the negative, however. I think you've asked a good question, one to which I can hopefully respond tomorrow. :) Just got back from a horse show and I need to shower and sleep!
"Silent and thoughtful a prince\'s son should be / and bold in fighting; / cheerful and merry every man should be / until he waits for death." ~ Havamal, stanza 15

Juniperberry

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Re: Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2011, 05:07:01 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;4647


Now, the way you explained inner vs. outer yard makes sense to me.

 
Ditto. You cleared up some things for me as well. :)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

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Re: Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2011, 02:57:38 am »
Quote from: bobthesane;4641

Hopefully that makes a bit of sense as far as my own personal take on the subject :)


Thanks for the info Bob, when I read the original post I thought the same thing that you were thinking about the quote "If you help the weak, you become weak."  Just about sacrilige is good way of putting it, and is about the opposite of what I have seen so far.

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Re: Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2011, 10:47:21 am »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;4359
In short, what's your opinion regarding charity, aid, helping the less fortunate, local vs. global focus, etc?

You've gotten good replies with the focus on hospitality, inner and outer yard, etc. I wanted specifically to comment on the global thing, which I think Juniperberry touched on. And this may be largely UPG and/or my Taoist bent. :P

The focus in heathenry is undoubtedly on the community. Your first and foremost responsibility is to take care of yourself and your own... otherwise, how are you going to accomplish anything? You can't / shouldn't try to help on a "global" scale without having your own house in order first.

Some might interpret this as weakness or selfishness but it's not. Or some may think that by helping others you ARE helping yourself, and you are to an extent, but looking outward for something to help yourself inwardly is only a band-aid, imo. This is an extreme case, but I think about hoarders (and especially animal hoarders).

Charity works much better if the focus is on the other way around: a desire to move or share from an inward desire to help or an inward wholeness to outward. I also think about when I was in school and we had to do "community service projects" and "reflect" on them and such. I did it, but I thought it was total bullshit. Adolescents are inherently self-centered (in the more negative sense) and I know that developmentally I had trouble identifying with those less fortunate. Now, as an adult, I find myself wanting to give more in terms of charity and service. It's part of why I'm going to be a teacher.

Also wanted to bring in one of my favoritest ever chapters of the Tao Te Ching (and this translation in particular!): 24. (There's a typo, grrr, "form" should be "firm.")
"Silent and thoughtful a prince\'s son should be / and bold in fighting; / cheerful and merry every man should be / until he waits for death." ~ Havamal, stanza 15

bobthesane

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Re: Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2011, 12:00:53 am »
Quote from: Hyacinth Belle;5439
The focus in heathenry is undoubtedly on the community. Your first and foremost responsibility is to take care of yourself and your own... otherwise, how are you going to accomplish anything? You can't / shouldn't try to help on a "global" scale without having your own house in order first.


Totally, one hunert purcent thar :)

At the risk of devolving into trite platitudes, 'the gods help those who help themselves'. I would never seek to expend my own valuable resources in service of others if my own hall was suffering. Need food? Sure, as long as my own family and innengardh are not going hungry right now. Clothing? Ditto. I do feel a strong obligation to ensure that those who come to my door do not leave hungry, but that food will not come from the mouths of my children. It is a foolhardy person who feeds and clothes others while depriving their own family of those very same things.

This is one area where I very much have to strongly disagree with common Christian philosophy. They say, 'blessed is he who gives from his need'. I say 'Dumbass is he who gives away his kids juice boxes if that is all they have to drink'. Also the concept of blessed poverty. I just can't wrap my head around that. I am sure that for many people it works to put things into perspective for themselves. But in my worldview, and my faith, poverty simply means you make poor business and professional choices. That, or you are unproven and are working your way up. There is no shame in wealth that is gained in a forthright and honorable manner. And the wealthy person who then gives to their community from their hoard accrues honor on top of honor. Wealth is a tool, like any other. Treated well, it will serve you and yours well, and can be used in service of your entire community. Treated poorly, and you will either lose it all by mismanagement, or you will lose honor and standing by being an asshat.

Wow... I totally went off on a tangent. Sorry...

To revisit Hyacinth's mention of adolescents, I think you are right. They are self-centered. They are children. Most children lack the ability to see beyond their immediate wants. That's not a flaw, or a fault. It just is. And often it can be a source of strength, drive and focus, to a young person seeking to make their mark. I think it is unreasonable to expect young people to fully comprehend how far reaching their actions may be. All we can do is seek to instill habits of behavior that, eventually, they WILL come to understand.

Now, I am of course not referring to ALL younger people. Just most :). There will always be exceptional people in any group.

Maythe

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Re: Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2011, 01:08:50 pm »
Quote from: Hyacinth Belle;5439
You can't / shouldn't try to help on a "global" scale without having your own house in order first.

So, do you never give to international charities? Personally I find it hard to choose charities to give to but gave to UNICEF for the famine appeal and support Amnesty International (because I think the right to a fair trial is extremely important) and WWF among others.

So how do you guys choose charities to give to, if you do? If you don't, why not?
My writing blog is very occasionally updated with poetry and short stories. My gardening blog is more active.

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Re: Heathenry and Charity/Aid/Service to Others, etc.
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2011, 01:54:33 pm »
Quote from: Maythe;8670
So, do you never give to international charities? Personally I find it hard to choose charities to give to but gave to UNICEF for the famine appeal and support Amnesty International (because I think the right to a fair trial is extremely important) and WWF among others.

So how do you guys choose charities to give to, if you do? If you don't, why not?

 
I tend to only give to local charities that after doing some research are reputable and stand by what they say they are going to do.  If I am going to give money, volunteer, or donate items that I have excess of then I want to make absolutely sure that the people in my community are the ones that will benefit first. Where I am there are plenty of people that are in need of help in one way or another.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 01:55:50 pm by cwummel »

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