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Author Topic: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post  (Read 28976 times)

Darkhawk

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #135 on: September 14, 2016, 10:19:37 am »
Quote from: TheRaginPagan;196240
Ah, but that's only when it's made about "race", rather than ancestry.


It being about "ancestry" is absolutely about race.  There is no way around that; it is disingenuous to even pretend it has ever meant anything else, or that it has ever had the possibility of meaning anything else.

The "Why don't you follow your own gods" questions are only directed to people who don't "look northern European".  Who don't pass some sort of racial criterion for entry.  And people who look "white enough" don't get asked about their heritage or ancestry.

And they are always, always, always being asked by people who assume their partial understanding of where their ancestors lived maybe four hundred or so years ago is proof positive of where their ancestors of fifteen hundred years ago lived and what they worshipped.  If they actually were able to track some of where their ancestry went, I suspect many of them would be surprised by what they found, and they'd be surprised by that much sooner than they found anyone who was a plausible polytheist.

But no, it's all about "my ancestors came over from X place in 1700, so I have X heritage" regardless of whether those ancestors came conquering through five hundred years before that and displaced the original X population to the less-good land next door, who had themselves conquered and displaced and eventually intermarried some with the people who actually were descended from the people who worshipped those "ancestral gods".

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Folkism at it's core is, as I understand it from American Heathenry, about one's ancestry, not one's race.

 
And that's only because it's "politically correct" to say "ancestry" rather than "race".  It makes it possible for people to whistle and stare at the ceiling and pretend someone hasn't just made a racist comment.

And even if the ancestry were a legit thing that was not blatantly racist, and even if it were actually tracked down to actual ancestral lines, it's still even less connected to actual polytheistic heritage than I am to Portugal by sheer number of generations removed.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

TheRaginPagan

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #136 on: September 14, 2016, 11:04:34 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;196249
it might be better for anti-racist Heathens not to exercise their right to say, 'No, this is not Heathenry;' and instead to recognize that there is no part of modern heathenry that doesn't have this in its roots

 
Only, this is exactly what Declaration 127 aimed to do. It is a stance made by anti-racist Heathens that there is no foundation in modern Heathenry or historical Norse culture to accommodate racism. I even flat-out told one AFA sympathizer that Thor is half-jotun, so their views on interracial relations is quite flawed and hypocritical if they claim to worship Thor.

Quote from: SunflowerP;196251
If you are aware of any instance of that sort of Folkish Heathenry not using visible racially-associated traits as a stand-in for ancestry, at least to the extent of requiring those who appear insufficiently white to go to far greater lengths ('completely unreasonable and daunting') to prove their eligibility, while those who do have the 'right' appearance are taken (literally!) at face value, please do be specific.


I've been told (by an individual on the AAA, so this was his view) that American Heathenry is basically not Heathenry, that to truly worship the G/N Gods, one must reside in those lands. But my argument isn't so much what people tend to do - there are the minority few that crop up in Facebook group chats who are "ancestry>race", but they always have a hard time displaying their views so they don't talk much - it's more about the ideology of "Folkish" itself.

With the people on Facebook that I've seen (and I can't point you to a specific instance,) who are "ancestry>race" Folkish, they tend to be "live and let live" types, not the AFA's "we're not racist, we're folkish" type, not even bothering to delve into the ancestry of other people. In American Heathenry, it's generally accepted (among them, not myself) that if you live in America, you're probably going to have either German or Nordic ancestry. Their's is a weak stance, admittedly, and usually crumbles right into Tribalist.

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You keep making posts full of folkish dogwhistles; I haven't yet decided if that's because you've been taken in by folkists' oh-so-carefully-crafted-to-sound-reasonable talking points, or if you're actually more folkish than you claim.

 
It's neither, really. I'm not exactly "taken in" by smoke-and-mirrors like the AFA threw up, I'm more referencing the above mentioned Folkists, and playing Devil's Advocate (a little) for the term itself. I try to play DA quite often, so that I don't become bigoted myself in the inability to see another's point of view, even if I disagree with it.

My stance, the way I actually, every day view this whole thing, is Tribalist. (Though I still wish there was a better term). I believe that [theistic] culture is, in part, fashioned by the gods and worship of them, and that it is more important than who is worshiping. Anyone of any nation, sexuality, or "race" can be a Heathen, and worship the G/N Gods if they are so called to them. But Thor is Thor, and shouldn't, for example, be depicted as or equated with Tlaloc. To me, that's disrespectful of both deities.

TheRaginPagan

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #137 on: September 14, 2016, 11:16:30 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;196258
The "Why don't you follow your own gods" questions are only directed to people who don't "look northern European". Who don't pass some sort of racial criterion for entry. And people who look "white enough" don't get asked about their heritage or ancestry.

 
You're not wrong. Which is why, when they're investigated, most Folkish Heathens are ousted from association as racists. Every now and again we get an unknowing Tribalist or a Folkish Heathen who hasn't quite thought it through completely, and from those I question the corruption of the term itself.

To give a horribly nerdy example, I see being Folkish as akin to being a Sith. The Sith are always going to be looked upon as dark, selfish, and evil, but not all Sith were evil. Some were disassociated Rouge Jedi, and others ideologically disagreed with the Jedi. Even Count Dooku wasn't necessarily evil, just on the other side of the war and at odds with Jedi philosophy.

The Sith Order wasn't about being evil, it was simply about how one utilized the Force. In a like fashion, I argue that Folkish isn't about being racist, but about where you came from. As the Sith more often than not tend to be evil, Folkists tend to be racist, but every so often you get a Darth Vectivus among them.

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #138 on: September 14, 2016, 11:31:33 am »
Quote from: TheRaginPagan;196262
The Sith Order wasn't about being evil, it was simply about how one utilized the Force. In a like fashion, I argue that Folkish isn't about being racist, but about where you came from.

 
It is not about "where you come from", especially in the case of American heathens, who are absolutely not from places they do not reside and have likely never even seen.  It is about a mythologised lie about race tied into dubious and likely false claims about history.

Trying to argue that there is folkishness without racism is like arguing that there are Sith without passion.  The start point doesn't just vanish.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

SunflowerP

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #139 on: September 15, 2016, 08:46:34 pm »
Quote from: TheRaginPagan;196261
Only, this is exactly what Declaration 127 aimed to do. It is a stance made by anti-racist Heathens that there is no foundation in modern Heathenry or historical Norse culture to accommodate racism.


No, Declaration 127 does not aim to do 'exactly', or at all, what I said in the part of my post that you quoted. I am not sure if this is poor reading comprehension on your part, or sloppiness in choosing what bit to quote.

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I've been told (by an individual on the AAA, so this was his view) that American Heathenry is basically not Heathenry, that to truly worship the G/N Gods, one must reside in those lands.


Which, again, has nothing to do with what I said.

Quote
But my argument isn't so much what people tend to do - there are the minority few that crop up in Facebook group chats who are "ancestry>race", but they always have a hard time displaying their views so they don't talk much - it's more about the ideology of "Folkish" itself.


If the ideology says, 'ancestry != race,' but in practice this takes the form of evaluating ancestry based on racially-associated traits, the ideology is just more of that, 'But we're not racist-racist, honest!' lip service, meant to deflect challenge.

As for your argument being '[not] so much what people tend to do... [but] more about the ideology,' I am reminded of a common aphorism among Heathens: 'You are your deeds.' A person can say whatever they like about what their ideology is (up to and including misrepresentation and bald-faced lying), but ultimately it is what they do that is their measure.

Quote
With the people on Facebook that I've seen (and I can't point you to a specific instance,) who are "ancestry>race" Folkish, they tend to be "live and let live" types, not the AFA's "we're not racist, we're folkish" type, not even bothering to delve into the ancestry of other people. In American Heathenry, it's generally accepted (among them, not myself) that if you live in America, you're probably going to have either German or Nordic ancestry. Their's is a weak stance, admittedly, and usually crumbles right into Tribalist.


I would posit that this is because they're in venues in which they're interacting with the broader Heathen community, not just with their own organization, and are interacting with the broader community because they want to, and want to be able to continue to do so. As such, they will be conforming to the interactive norms of the broader community, rather than demanding that the broader community conform to the standards their own organization uses.

Again, it is less important what they claim about their position, especially when they're in a venue in which hardline folkishness is likely to get them thrown out of the venue, and more important what they do in their own communities.

Quote
It's neither, really. I'm not exactly "taken in" by smoke-and-mirrors like the AFA threw up, I'm more referencing the above mentioned Folkists, and playing Devil's Advocate (a little) for the term itself. I try to play DA quite often, so that I don't become bigoted myself in the inability to see another's point of view, even if I disagree with it.


I am having a great deal of difficulty understanding what purpose is served by playing Devil's Advocate for folkishness here - on this message board, in this SIG, in this discussion thread - unless you actually have, ahem and earworm ahoy, Sympathy for the Devil.

If it's simply an exercise in oiling the hinges of the doors of your own mind, to ensure it remains sufficiently open, that's very likely to eventually collide with TC's own culture and reasons for being. If you consistently engage in folkish apologism, especially if you use folkish dogwhistles, folkish talking points expressed in the way that Folkish Heathens express them, to do so, people will take you to be at least somewhat folkish yourself.

Quote
But Thor is Thor, and shouldn't, for example, be depicted as or equated with Tlaloc. To me, that's disrespectful of both deities.

 
That has very little to do with folkishness, or even with Heathen universalism as it's usually practiced (or indeed, little to do with Heathenry per se); it's simply a statement of hard polytheism. I fail to see how it's even remotely relevant.

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TheRaginPagan

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #140 on: September 15, 2016, 11:53:45 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;196291
No, Declaration 127 does not aim to do 'exactly', or at all, what I said in the part of my post that you quoted.

Hang on. Re-reading what you've said, were you saying that there is no part of modern Heathenry that does not have racist roots?

Quote
Which, again, has nothing to do with what I said.

No, this one was in response to exactly what you had requested. You said that if I was aware of any instance of "Folkish" being used in a non-racist manner to specify. That is an instance of which I am referring.

Quote
If the ideology says, 'ancestry != race,'

Only "Folkish" in and of itself does not. It says "ancestry." Groups like the AFA and Odinists will be quick to say that equates to race, but "Folkish" specifies no color of skin.

Quote
As for your argument being '[not] so much what people tend to do... [but] more about the ideology,' I am reminded of a common aphorism among Heathens: 'You are your deeds.'

Which is where I will not defend the AFA, or Folkish Heathens like them. My argument is that where one might say they are Folkish, they may be misinformed or ascribe to a very unscientific point of view. They are not necessarily a racist.

Quote
I would posit that this is because they're in venues in which they're interacting with the broader Heathen community, not just with their own organization, and are interacting with the broader community because they want to, and want to be able to continue to do so. As such, they will be conforming to the interactive norms of the broader community, rather than demanding that the broader community conform to the standards their own organization uses.

Honestly, not from what I've seen. Being online, and being somewhat removed from risk, emboldens the racists to come out of the woodwork. They're not going to get hurt, so why not try and pressure their views? I've seen, for no good reason, racist arguments spark up about the nature of the gods, what "tru" Heathens ought do, and criticisms of our organizations for not ascribing to the "88 Precepts." In criticism of the AFA, I've seen - and been target of myself - our leadership being called everything from Jews to Christ-lovers, condemned by keyboard cowards (ironically) to Nastrond.

All of this I've only ever seen online, never in person at any of the Heathen gatherings that I've been to. The racists, it seems to me, were worse online. Admittedly, though, I've yet to go to a gathering post-AFA Incident.

Quote
I am having a great deal of difficulty understanding what purpose is served by playing Devil's Advocate for folkishness here - on this message board, in this SIG, in this discussion thread - unless you actually have, ahem and earworm ahoy, Sympathy for the Devil.

I don't really have sympathy for them, no. The purpose is to see if it can be done, if there's an argument for those few who aren't racist and are just misinformed. This forum serves better because it is, to my understanding, a Pagan forum. People here are more likely to know the situation more than other forums that I'm on, populated by Christians, Muslims and Atheists who have no idea what our communities various politics are about.

As for my stance, it should be clear in what I've said. Yes, I know we Heathens are our actions more than our words, but on a forum we've naught but words.

Sun Tzu once said "if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles." I view this division of the Heathen community as a battle, yet from what I've seen the sides are unclear. Should I cast out every person who throws out "Folkish flags" as a racist? Or should I be able to know which are truly racists, and thus enemies of what I stand for, and which are simply fools to be enlightened?

Quote
That has very little to do with folkishness, or even with Heathen universalism as it's usually practiced (or indeed, little to do with Heathenry per se); it's simply a statement of hard polytheism. I fail to see how it's even remotely relevant.

Well, because in explaining my stance of "Tribalist", it is one that anyone of any nationality or "race" can be a Heathen, but Heathen Culture is that of Germanic and Norse people, and should be maintained. Which is what Tribalist Heathenry is.

But to divert back, that was made to clarify where I stand in regards to this, as my "sympathies" are constantly under question. My argument isn't about what I believe but what they believe, and more specifically what the term itself stands for independent of what people like the AFA do.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 11:54:24 pm by TheRaginPagan »

SunflowerP

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #141 on: September 16, 2016, 01:20:40 am »
Quote from: TheRaginPagan;196300
Hang on. Re-reading what you've said, were you saying that there is no part of modern Heathenry that does not have racist roots?


Yes, that is what I am saying.

Quote
No, this one was in response to exactly what you had requested. You said that if I was aware of any instance of "Folkish" being used in a non-racist manner to specify. That is an instance of which I am referring.


No, that is not what I requested. Go back and reread the very precise specifications I gave. (I should perhaps clarify one point, and that's that I was referring to Folkish groups, and their membership standards, not to how folkish-identified individuals might interact with the larger Heathen community.)

As well, your example doesn't really illustrate anything about people separating ancestry from race so that ancestry-based standards aren't applied in a racist way; it has to do with someone (presumably, given that you consider it salient to what I asked, someone who IDs as folkish, but who has a very non-standard definition of it) who uses neither race nor ancestry, but geographical location, as his standard.

Quote
Only "Folkish" in and of itself does not. It says "ancestry." Groups like the AFA and Odinists will be quick to say that equates to race, but "Folkish" specifies no color of skin.


See, things like this are exactly why I can't tell if you are really that naive (in this case, about the history of how institutional and personal racism has been applied - have you never heard of the one-drop_rule?), or are being disingenuous.

Those folkish sorts who don't want to stand up and proudly admit to being racist (which would include the AFA up until just a few weeks ago when they made the announcement that this thread is a discussion of) are very careful to say, 'Oh, we mean ancestry, not race!' Just as careful as they are to say, 'Oh, we're not racist, we're just folkish!'

(Also, != means 'does not equal'. It looks to me like you might have misread it.)

I am not responding to the rest of your post, because I am, frankly, entirely out of patience or interest for your persistent, 'But what about the poor misunderstood non-racist Folkish Heathens?'

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Allaya

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #142 on: September 16, 2016, 05:32:05 am »
Quote from: TheRaginPagan;196261
It's neither, really. I'm not exactly "taken in" by smoke-and-mirrors like the AFA threw up, I'm more referencing the above mentioned Folkists, and playing Devil's Advocate (a little) for the term itself. I try to play DA quite often, so that I don't become bigoted myself in the inability to see another's point of view, even if I disagree with it.

 
Yeah, so about that Devil's Advocate thing.

You're terrible at it. Seriously. I'm not saying that to be mean or cruel...more that you might want to know that in case there is a day when your mouth writes a check your body can't cash.

A decent indicator of poor devil's advocacy is that one is constantly having to go "but wait y'all I don't actually think that". You've been doing that left, right, and center.

What you are coming off as is an apologist for Folkish Heathenry. Very strongly. If that is not your intent, then you might want to sit yourself down with a book on debate skills. Again, not meant as a taunt. I suspect it's more than just me who has had to brush up on their skills in order to properly discuss things here.
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Darkhawk

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #143 on: September 16, 2016, 01:28:04 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;196302
Yes, that is what I am saying.

 
From my origins of modern paganism research, and I am certainly going to miss some things in my notes, but.  Critical figures and points in the emergence of Norse/Germanic heathenry:

Johann Gottfried Herder, philosopher, Christian theologian, poet, literary critic: one of the first true glorifiers of the concept of the Volk, in his 1778 work "Voices of the Peoples in their Songs" and related material, but also explicitly warned against nationalism and anti-Semitism in the context of the idea of the Volk.  (He believed that the other peoples of the world owed the Jews a debt because of their persecution.)  His work underlaid the idea of the language and cultural traditions (artforms primarily) as important to a people, and revitalised the German spirit with an upswing native-language interests in poetry and collection of folklore.  (He inspired the Grimms.)  He believed in each ethno-nationality as possessing a sort of cultural center of gravity and identity, and focused on attempting to find harmony.  He explicitly said there were no races.  He championed both the individuality of cultures and of people within those cultures.

Basically, if it had stopped at Herder, things would be fine.  However, Herder was explicitly not heathen; he was in fact distressed by the fact Christianity was not fully established as a state church in Germany because he thought it would keep the German national spirit from fully flowering.  His philosophies were necessary to the development of heathenry, but not sufficient.

In 1798, the Athenaeum periodical was founded by the Schlegel brothers; it is considered one of the prime sparks for German Romanticism.

In the early 1800s, we get the Napoleonic Wars, inspiring a sharp upwards spike in nationalistic sentiment, and an increasing tendency towards scientific racism as people develop and elaborate scientific theories, including evolutionary theory; most modern racial stereotypes are drawn from the work Researches on the Variations in Human Nature by German historian and philosopher Christoph Meiners.

By the 1830s, we start getting things like Teodor Narbutt's folklore and mythologised history for Lithuania, or Elias Lƶnnrot's composition of the Kalevala in Finland, indicating that at least various people in the area were experimenting with and exploring Herder's philosophies of a literary approach to the Volksgeist concept.

(Meanwhile, Hans Christian Anderson became a political adherent of Scandinavism, a movement to unify Denmark, Sweden, and Norway as one nation based on shared Scandinavian culture, much like the German and Italian unification movements.  His collections and retellings of folklore are of course tied into this national and super-national spirit.)

The term "Odinist" was coined by Thomas Carlyle, a Scottish philosopher, satirist, historian, and teacher, in his 1840 On Heroes, Hero-Worship, and the Heroic in History.  (He presented Odin as a mythological hero, in keeping with the history of euhemerism in that pantheon.)  He pioneered the "great man" theory of history, and rather than embrace the "death of God" cocnept that was emerging from the Industrial Revolution and the age of science, suggested the adoption of, effectively, hero-worship as a replacement for lost spiritual values.  These ideas were picked up and introduced to Germany by Nietzsche, who took the attributes of Carlyle's "hero" to apply to his "superman".

In 1848, everyone had a nationalist revolution.

In 1853, Arthur de Goibineau published a book equating the Aryans with the Germans.  His race theory was moderately complicated, but suggested that white people originated in Siberia, ish, and were divided into three subraces (Hamitic, Semitic, and Japhetic), of which the Aryans were equivalent to the Japhetic.  His notions were based in significant part on the Bible as a true history of humanity.

In 1854, Das Rheingold, the first of the four operas in Wagner's The Ring of the Niebelung cycle retelling Norse myths into a modern form, premiered.  This probably led to, arose from, or in some way was related to the idea of the Niebelungenleid as the German national epic.

The Oera Linda book was probably composed somewhere in the 1860s.

In 1870, Edvard Grieg's Olaf Trygvason coins the term "Asatru", by the way.

In 1875, the Theosophical Society was founded, which is a worthwhile mention because Theosophical mysticism was basically the Done Thing in Europe throughout, and introduced a lot of fascinating neo-Hindu notions into Europe that a lot of people picked up, including the earliest proto-heathens.

So, all of that is the setup, providing the context that enables a start.

Thus: we get Guido von List, who in 1862 renounced Catholicism to dedicate himself to Wotanism, which Tom mentioned earlier in the thread.  Von List was the inventor of Armanism, a racial religious philosophy that hinged on renouncing Christianity and "returning" to the religions of the "Ario-Germanen".  List believed a number of things that are popular among modern pagans: that folk traditions merely needed to be decoded to reveal an older religion, that divinity was immanent, that mystical union between humanity and the universe was key, that hidden esoteric religions (his Armanism) were the core power, with related but distinct exoteric religions (Wotanism) for the unenlightened, that Christianity had been bloodily imposed (though he believed that it had begun peacefully before being disrupted by Charlemagne, which is more generous than many modern pagans).  He was also a Theosophist.  He made his name in part by researching what he believed to be pagan survivals in place names and local folklore; he wedded that to German nationalism and volkisch beliefs.

He believed that ur-heathenry to have been fundamentally sun worship, and that ancient German society was ruled by priest-kings who were presumably initiated into the secret mysteries.  He was also a runologist, and pioneered the idea of the runes as magical writing; his Amarnen runeset became extremely popular in German-speaking areas and spread to the English-speaking world.  (After WWII, occultists starting with Karl Spiesberger started working with the runes to attempt to remove the racism in the original interpretations and meanings; Friedrich Marby was apparently sent to the concentration camps because he was one of the few pre-WWII runologist who was publishing theories that were not anti-Semitic.)

List was sufficiently popular that an occult group, the Guido Von List Society, was formed to explore his volkisch ideas.  Even after his death in 1919, his ideas remained influential, getting into the likes of the Reichshammerbund and the Germanenorden.  (The Germanenorden, incidentally, required race purity of its members, used the swastika as a symbol, celebrated the summer solstice, and had study groups for German mystics and the Eddas.  It was explicitly volkisch and anti-Semitic.)

Wotanism was constructed as a polytheistic religion based on the Eddas (which List believed to have been penned by refugees fleeing Christianisation), which he believed had been inherent over much of Europe before Christianity led to social breakdown.  That exoteric, polytheistic religion concealed a core monotheism that was known to the elites.  He thought the basic teachings of the religion could be found in the runes themselves, which he composed aphoristic translations for.  His model for the esoteric religion was heavily influenced by Freemasonry, which represented a survival of the truth.  He argued that the ancient Armanist priests had given some of their knowledge over to the Jews for safekeeping, which he used to justify his use of the kabbalah, which he held to have been a German invention, as well as some of his anti-Semitism.

He was also a millenarian and a conspiracy theorist, believing in an international organisation that was secrely bringing about the downfall of human civilisation, which needed to be opposed by the German/Aryan race in order to turn the cycle of the ages and bring about a new golden age in which monarchy, patriarchal primogeniture, and the institutionalisation of Aryan/German superiority were etsablished, with Wotanism as the state religion.  So, you know.  Charming guy.

However, the adherents of Wotanism did not win the Which Imaginary Ancient Religion Do The Nazis Choose sweepstakes, and were persecuted by Karl Maria Wiligut, whose Imaginary Ancient Religion was called Irminism, which was proposed as an original monotheistic religion that was unreasonably supplanted by Wotanism.  Your Ancient Religion Beat Up My Ancient Religion, pre-Christian bracket, fight!

Starting a bit later than List, there is Jƶrg Lanz-Liebenfels, an ex-monk, occultist, and political and race theorist, whose term "Ariosophy" became the more popular one for the whole Aryan mysticism movement.  Liebenfels's beliefs were certainly colorful; they included the notion that the Aryan people were descended from space alien gods but intermixing with lower beings had lost them their mystical powers, which could only be recovered by careful selective breeding.  Liebenfels started the journal Ostara to promote his racial purity ideals.  His schtick was semi-Christian; he appealed to Biblical stories to argue his position, so he is less directly relevant than List to heathenry per se.

The fascist, volkisch, and anti-Semitic occult groups proliferated, and inspired comparable groups in other nations, especially those associated with the Axis powers.  (Such as the Gruppa del Ur in Italy.)  Meanwhile, Himmler founded Ahnerbe to find more information about the historical "Aryan race", which did a combination of amateur volkisch-type research and occultism and pseudoscience.

Then you get people like Alexander Rud Mills, who was inspired by Guido von List to do his own thing and construct a particularly British form of Odinism.  Like List, he believed that Christianity was an alien imposition, and that Odinism would speak more truly to the spirit of British people.  (He did not really take into account the ethnic diversity of the Empire; perhaps he just was speaking to/for the ones of the correct ancestry?)  His opposition to Christianity was, in part, racial; he felt that it disintegrated the boundaries between races.  He believed in a sort of archetypal polytheism, in which the gods were symbols of forms of divinity, and focused his attention on Odin as the archetypal father figure.  He was anti-Christian, ragingly anti-Semitic, and had issues with Freemasonry as being too Jewish.  He was big on eugenics, he connected individual valor with the health of the people/nation, he felt that the white race had betrayed the ancestors by abandoning their ways (holy shit okay that's familiar from current and ongoing heathen trashfires, wow), and such stuff.  He was disappointed when he met Hitler that Hitler was not interested in Odin.

Mills's work basically produced English-language Odinism, with direct lines to the Odinist Fellowship, the Odinic Rite in its various branches, and the Church of Odin.  Else Christensen, founder of the Odinist Fellowship and an actualfax Nazi (purged for insufficient purity), was in correspondence with Mills, a believer in Jewish conspiracies, and considered "racial consciousness" to be important to spread among Aryans.

And that's about where it was, from what I turned up researching it, before basically the 1970s.  (Well, in the late 60s Valguard Murray is introduced to Odinism by his buddies in the American Nazi Party; he wound up inheriting a bunch of stuff from Christensen.)  In the 1970s there are two threads that pop up:  Sveinbjƶrn Beinteinsson and Stephen McNallen.

Sveinbjƶrn Beinteinsson had started publishing about rimur in the 1940s and 1950s - the traditional verse form of the Icelandic sagas.  He appears to be an example of the Herder-style cultural polytheist rather than the List-style; his interest in traditional cultural literary forms seems from what I have found to have brought him into polytheistic practice, and he founded the ƁsatrĆŗarfĆ©lagiĆ° in 1972.

Stephen McNallen founds the Viking Brotherhood, likewise in 1972.  McNallen is an interesting case: he is explicitly anti-Nazi, but promotes the pseudoscientific and racist "metagenetics" notion by which religions are connected with ancestry; this concept appears to derive in part from the "collective unconscious" of Jungian archetypalism.  He started out anti-Christian but moderated his position, though he still believes it to be a foreign and weakening influence.  He started out calling his thing Odinism, after Else Christensen (a Mills acolyte), but swapped to Asatru after reading a book by Magnus Magnusson, leading to a (perhaps independent) popularisation of the term in the US.  McNallen insists that he is not a racist, but a racial separatist, and writes things about notions like the extinction of the white race and demographic transformation.  Basically, this guy is a centrist, because he's not a Nazi.  Look at that Overton window.

In 1976, the Viking Brotherhood evolved into the Asatru Free Assembly.  The Asatru Free Assembly basically rediscovered the problem of Congregationalist churches: when every kindred sets its own principles, it's hard to manage denominational cohesion.  Which led to things like Valguard Murray threatening to kill another AFA member because he was gay.  That kind of thing.  These schisms and disputes are said to not be what caused the group to break up in 1986, but rather administrators working overtime and such material-life concerns.  Not everyone believes this.

In 1978, the AFA was joined by Stephen Flowers / Edred Thorsson, who adopted the "metagenics" notion and developed it further.  Flowers had a Satanist background (this was no secret anywhere) and was/is big into rune magic.  (Also his sex magic book is extremely creepy on the lines of full consent to magical practice, but that's not relevant to heathenry per se, just sort of generally ew.)  He spent some time with the Amarnen-Orden - the revival of the Guido von List Society - but was not initiated.  He founded a group called the Rune-Gild for study of the runes around 1980; his graduate degrees were related to the topic.  He founded the Ring of Troth in 1987 after the AFA was disbanded; in 1989 he was expelled from the Odinic Rite over his involvement with the Temple of Set.

The Ring of Troth, now the Troth after various schisms, was founded by Flowers and James Chisholm, who remains affiliated with the organisation.  The Troth was intended as the non-racist branch of heathenry, in opposition to Valguard Murray's Asatru Alliance, which was the other half of the schism.  (Murray worked closely with Christensen on the Odinist Fellowship as well.)  The Troth has been notably more successful in spreading its views than other US-based heathen organisations; its original vision is research-based heathenry.  Presumably whatever of Flowers's lingering wackanoodle epigenetic religion stuff is still kicking around is not default, but worth noting that the "universalist" branch of American heathenry was founded in part by someone who believed in that nonsense.

McNallen founded the Asatru Folk Assembly in 1994, thereby creating acronym confusion with his earlier organisation.  It, as noted, claims to not be racist, but continues to promote the pseudoscientific integral link between biological inheritance and spirituality.  McNallen apparently founded it because the Ring of Troth was too "universalist" and thus there needed to be more racist organisations to balance it off.  Interestingly, the "folk" of the new AFA, the "Peoples of the North", are not just Germanic/Nordic but also Celtic, and now I look at that it bothers me, because damnit, if you're going to say you believe in crazy epigenetic religion what's with this co-opting of people who didn't come from regions where that religion was practiced, and in fact are associated with entirely other systems?  Fucking hypocritical, I call it.

To summarise since that was huge:  the question in heathenry is not "where did the racists come from", because they have always been there, and in many cases are critical in the founding forces that caused heathenry to come into being.  The question is what to do to fix that.

A note: I'm less clear on modern-era (post-1970 heathenry) outside of North America and Iceland; my research, being English-language, didn't turn up a lot of things for that, though apparently the German branch/associate/affiliate of the Troth doesn't think there's an intrinsic incompatibility between folkish and universalist perspectives?
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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #144 on: September 16, 2016, 06:54:15 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;196317
From my origins of modern paganism research, and I am certainly going to miss some things in my notes, but.  Critical figures and points in the emergence of Norse/Germanic heathenry:

[snip]

To summarise since that was huge:  the question in heathenry is not "where did the racists come from", because they have always been there, and in many cases are critical in the founding forces that caused heathenry to come into being.  The question is what to do to fix that.

A note: I'm less clear on modern-era (post-1970 heathenry) outside of North America and Iceland; my research, being English-language, didn't turn up a lot of things for that, though apparently the German branch/associate/affiliate of the Troth doesn't think there's an intrinsic incompatibility between folkish and universalist perspectives?

 
I love this post and thank you so much for writing this. This is one of those things that I've been wanting and feeling like I might have to find the time/energy to figure it out myself.

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #145 on: September 16, 2016, 08:02:57 pm »
Quote from: Tom;196324
I love this post and thank you so much for writing this. This is one of those things that I've been wanting and feeling like I might have to find the time/energy to figure it out myself.

 
I have all the Soup research kicking around, sometimes it's useful!
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we rise and fall
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we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #146 on: September 16, 2016, 08:24:29 pm »
Quote from: makaroĆ°;195325
Thought this was an interesting story to share.


As a Heathen, I've never seen anything wrong with racial exclusion. What does frustrate me, is the fact that it has crowded out so many other wonderful opportunities for other, equally valid forms of exclusion. Just off the top of my head we could have awesome things like;

Geographical Exclusion! (You don't live in Europe? NOT HEATHEN!)

Climactic Exclusion! (How the fuck are you going to celebrate Winter Nights IF YOU HAVE NO WINTER!?!?!?!)

Occupational Exclusion! (I don't see any goddamned mention of computer programmers in the lore, do you?)

Technological Exclusion! (No cars in the lore! Do you drive a car? Yes? NOT HEATHEN!)

Megafaunal Exclusion! (Bears, Wolves, Ravens and Boars resident where you live? No? GTFO!)

Linguistic Exclusion! (No historical Heathen spoke modern English! No Old Norse? Fuck off!)

Temporal Exclusion! (Do you live in the first millennium? No? WHAT ARE YOU EVEN DOING HERE!?)

Really, Folkishness just seems to be really limiting who we can prevent from being Heathens. I know the Heathen community can do so much better than the half-assed racial exclusion we've been tolerating for so long. Let's stop messing around and really embrace the full weight of all the potential excluding we can do and just exclude ourselves right out of existence.
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Hyacinth Belle

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #147 on: September 16, 2016, 10:31:11 pm »
Quote from: TheRaginPagan;196300
Should I cast out every person who throws out "Folkish flags" as a racist? Or should I be able to know which are truly racists, and thus enemies of what I stand for, and which are simply fools to be enlightened?

 
I used to think like this. For, like, a minute. I do not think like this anymore.

And, rhetorical question: what is a "true racist"? I'm more concerned with the unconsciousness or denial of racism than I am with the person who openly admits they're racist (those blatant crazies are easier to just avoid).
"Silent and thoughtful a prince\'s son should be / and bold in fighting; / cheerful and merry every man should be / until he waits for death." ~ Havamal, stanza 15

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #148 on: September 16, 2016, 11:26:59 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;196302
Yes, that is what I am saying.


If we dig back far enough, everything potentially has racist roots. If you're wanting to address Modern Heathenry, I'd start at 1969.

From Our Troth: Volume 2, pg 5; "When we look deep into Wyrd to seek the roots of our troth, we find that it springs from two great streams, the might of our ancestors and the powerful forces in the natural world."

Modern Heathenry's roots are thus: The Ancestors and The Earth. Now I would like to point out that it only says "our ancestors," it does not specify from which ethnicity or nation. Heathenry is part ancestral worship; honoring our forefathers - whoever they may be - as the originating line of who we are, either as an individual, a community, or a nation. They can be blood relatives, cultural heroes, or long-dead progenitors of the human race. The Ancestors are they who came before us, and through their strength and will got us to where we are.

"Kveldulf Gundarsson", the author of Our Troth, is the penname of Stephan Grundy, who is credited with being a major proponent in moving Modern Heathenry further towards an anti-racist and anti-sexist ideology, and was the Lore Warden for The Troth - who is on the list of those organizations standing against the AFA.

And even if that is taken to mean only Northern European ancestors, it is not used in a racist way in any sense of the word. One does not need to include all races and ethnicities to not be racist; one is racist when claims of superiority are made, or when the basic rights of another race are infringed upon because of their race. Exclusion from a private organization based on their criteria, whatever that may be, is not ones rights being infringed upon or one being persecuted or discriminated against - especially when there are a plethora of other similar organizations (in this case religious) that one might join.

In a good realistic take on all this Jordsvin writes, "I'm not sure why so much fuss has been made with the goal in mind of keeping non-Caucasians out of Asatru. It seems like a waste of time to me. All other factors being equal, this religion is far more likely to appeal to a Swedish-American than a Chinese-American anyway! That is not surprising and I have no problem with that. The relatively few individuals of non-European extraction who join our religion are probably here for very good reasons. I view them as seasoning for the Heathen pot, so to speak: a source of new ideas and fresh perspectives that will help our religion to be a truly living one and continue to evolve. In any case, Heathenism is pretty much self-screening anyway. Individuals who establish a meaningful relationship with the Gods will stay in Heathenry, even if they just got off the boat from Asia or Africa. Those who fail to establish a working relationship with the Aesir and Vanir will leave, even if they just got off the boat from Iceland! So why create such an ugly mess (and horrific public relations) by trying to keep the ethnically non-European out of Asatru?"

Quote
I should perhaps clarify one point, and that's that I was referring to Folkish groups, and their membership standards, not to how folkish-identified individuals might interact with the larger Heathen community.


I am aware of one "Folkish" group; the AFA. Their example is out, as they made it well-known. The examples I gave were of individuals, who are more encountered than groups.

For instances where ancestry is separated from race, I have found a statement made only a year ago by a now anonymous user on the Asatru Reddit board. They write:

"I'm making this post only because I'm seeing quite a few discussions about Folkish vs. Universalist, I am in no way telling you what to do with your own life/religion/beliefs. If you hear the call of the gods then you are more than welcome to practice our religion. I would simply urge that if you happen to be of Celtic/Greek/Egyptian/whatever heritage you might want to investigate the religion and gods of your ancestors before trying Heathenry. If you find that's not for you then at least you've made an informed decision, I would welcome you into my group. If you really have your heart set on practicing Heathenry and don't want to look into your ancestral religion I would still accept you into my group. This is how every folkish Heathen I've spoken to (including those from Norway, Iceland, and America) feels. We're not going to turn you away because you're not of Northern European descent. We don't care about the colour of your skin. We just feel you should at least look into your ancestral religion before absolutely deciding on Asatru. I do feel that those of Northern European descent are going to be more drawn to this religion than others. This is simply because this is the religion their ancestors practiced, they're going to be more inclined to research it. Very rarely are you going to be turned away by a folkish Heathen simply because you're not Northern European. They may tell you to look into your ancestor's religion before dedicating yourself to Asatru, but they're not going to say "Nope, not Germanic. You're out". I honestly have no idea how to end this post so I'm going to stop it right there. Have a nice day."

Our Troth calls note to this. Granted, in 1993, the term "Tribalist" doesn't seem to have been coined, but it's explored in great length that the spectrum of "Folkish vs. Universalist" is wide and diverse. Within any given group, one is bound to find members of either spectrum - not unlike finding Republicans and Democrats at church.

Kriselda Jarnsaxa wrote something called the "Scale of Racial and Cultural Tolerances in Asatru", which is also known as the "Jarnsaxa Scale. While not a "law" of any sorts, it gives a good insight into the political diversity therein. Paraphrased, the six scales are as follows:

1. Heathenry is an open religion in which anyone can join. High Ritual, certain points of theology, and certain beliefs - namely that of non-racism/sexism - must, however, be held.
2. Anyone - regardless of race or culture - may be Heathen. Anyone is welcome.
3. Non-Northern European Heathens are unusual, but not impossible. Who is called to Heathenry is up to the Gods.
4. Heathenry is a Northern European religion. This does not make NE people - and their ancestors - better than anyone else, but it is a cultural religion. By the same token, non-Teutonic beliefs and traditions are closed to Heathens as Heathenry is to other cultures. Respect others by acknowledging their cultural differences, and not misrepresenting it*
5. Only those of Northern European heritage can be Heathens, and should separate fully from other races. This does not imply superiority or inferiority, only a recognition of human diversity and the interest of keeping it as such.**
6. Only those of Northern European heritage can be Heathens, and are superior to all other races. NE "Aryan" peoples are the only true humans, worthy enough to worship the Aesir and Vanir, and have a moral obligation to keep bloodlines pure.***

*I see this one a lot with New Age notions of Karma and Yoga.
**Disagree though many have, this is actually more in line with the official statement of the AFA. Almost extreme, but not as extreme as it could get.
***Basically neonazi's. What the AFA didn't say, but what everyone seems to make of it.

Quote
See, things like this are exactly why I can't tell if you are really that naive (in this case, about the history of how institutional and personal racism has been applied - have you never heard of the one-drop_rule?), or are being disingenuous.


I am well aware. In every attempt to pin down just what "Folkish" means, the constant is the belief that Heathenry is the ancestral belief of people with Northern European heritage. No mention of skin color or racial appearance, and with modern knowledge of the genetic diversity found even within Norse culture, this opens the gates quite a bit.

Quote
Also, != means 'does not equal'. It looks to me like you might have misread it.


I did. I'm used to seeing it as =/=, so it's good to know other forms.

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Re: Asatru Folk Assembly racist and transphobic post
« Reply #149 on: September 16, 2016, 11:44:26 pm »
Quote from: Hyacinth Belle;196329
And, rhetorical question: what is a "true racist"? I'm more concerned with the unconsciousness or denial of racism than I am with the person who openly admits they're racist (those blatant crazies are easier to just avoid).

 
I know it was a rhetorical, but let me explain what I meant.

Mostly on Facebook in the American Asatru Association, I've seen "Folkish" Heathens that aren't racist, they're just very loyal to Germanic heritage and culture. They accept non-Germanic Heathens, but frown on things like Marvel's "Thor" being used as example of the Gods, or a Heathen holiday being shared with, say, Egyptian gods. These are the fools, and more often than not they're open to education.

Then there are the people that, when banned from the group for crossing the line, devolve rapidly into racial and sexual slurs against our membership and leadership. Usually clear to tell ahead of time, these are the "true racists."

The underlying question is, do we combat racism with ostracization at the drop of a hat? In my experience, this only breeds further hated, and strengthens bad ideologies. Or do we forgive an honest mistake, give a second chance, and extend education to battle ignorance? That is more prone to make a friend, and friends are more willing to keep the peace.

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