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Author Topic: Asatru and CR  (Read 2329 times)

herkles

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Asatru and CR
« on: November 19, 2013, 10:42:46 pm »
Hello,

Lately I have been feeling drawn towards heathenry. Now as I others might know I am an Irish Polytheist, that is what I have been drawn to and still am drawn to. Now when I started on a pagan path, I was actually sort of torn between both the Norse and the Irish deities, but I felt a bigger connection with the Irish.

I am not sure what other heathens think of worshiping and honoring other paths along with the Norse Gods and goddesses.  I sometimes get the feeling that it is only the Norse when I read online.

I am not sure how much cross-pollination Ireland and the Norse had before Ireland became christian. Though Ireland did get plenty later after Ireland been christian. But, I am wondering how similar are the belief structures, from my understanding so far I get the feeling that they are rather similar. But from others who are Heathens of any sort what are your thoughts on how similar and compatible the two are or are not?

I know for myself, one of the things that I do not agree with is the concept of Ragnarok, or any sort of end of the world scenario. This is actually one of the things that pushed me towards the Irish side first, because I just don't believe in such a scenario.

If I happen to have any other questions, I might ask them here.

sincerely,

-herkles

Fireof9

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Re: Asatru and CR
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2013, 11:56:57 pm »
Quote from: herkles;129988
Hello,

Lately I have been feeling drawn towards heathenry. Now as I others might know I am an Irish Polytheist, that is what I have been drawn to and still am drawn to. Now when I started on a pagan path, I was actually sort of torn between both the Norse and the Irish deities, but I felt a bigger connection with the Irish.

I am not sure what other heathens think of worshiping and honoring other paths along with the Norse Gods and goddesses.  I sometimes get the feeling that it is only the Norse when I read online.

I am not sure how much cross-pollination Ireland and the Norse had before Ireland became christian. Though Ireland did get plenty later after Ireland been christian. But, I am wondering how similar are the belief structures, from my understanding so far I get the feeling that they are rather similar. But from others who are Heathens of any sort what are your thoughts on how similar and compatible the two are or are not?

I know for myself, one of the things that I do not agree with is the concept of Ragnarok, or any sort of end of the world scenario. This is actually one of the things that pushed me towards the Irish side first, because I just don't believe in such a scenario.

If I happen to have any other questions, I might ask them here.

sincerely,

-herkles

 
A great article

Another article

Yet even one more

And still one more
Really?  So, hey, want to go fishing?  I\'ve got a telescope, and it\'s going to be a dark night, so we should see the fish really well.
...what, I\'m not talking about fishing?  That\'s stargazing?  It\'s all doing-stuff, so it\'s the same thing, right?
-HeartShadow
 
Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mystery,Today is a gift,thats why the call it the present - Master Oogway

Finding the Owl -my blog
The Gwyddonic Order

hlewagastir

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Re: Asatru and CR
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2013, 06:32:50 am »
Quote from: herkles;129988
Hello,

Lately I have been feeling drawn towards heathenry. Now as I others might know I am an Irish Polytheist, that is what I have been drawn to and still am drawn to. Now when I started on a pagan path, I was actually sort of torn between both the Norse and the Irish deities, but I felt a bigger connection with the Irish.

I am not sure what other heathens think of worshiping and honoring other paths along with the Norse Gods and goddesses.  I sometimes get the feeling that it is only the Norse when I read online.

I am not sure how much cross-pollination Ireland and the Norse had before Ireland became christian. Though Ireland did get plenty later after Ireland been christian. But, I am wondering how similar are the belief structures, from my understanding so far I get the feeling that they are rather similar. But from others who are Heathens of any sort what are your thoughts on how similar and compatible the two are or are not?

I know for myself, one of the things that I do not agree with is the concept of Ragnarok, or any sort of end of the world scenario. This is actually one of the things that pushed me towards the Irish side first, because I just don't believe in such a scenario.

If I happen to have any other questions, I might ask them here.

sincerely,

-herkles

In a different thread I made the following suggestion to one who asked about eclectic paganism and Asatru:
Quote
I would say go for it. Just remember that Asatru is a (at times vague) religion which still has a number of core concepts. Such as the sacrifice to Norse gods, polytheism, referring back pre-Christian, Norse religion, traditions and structures (which depends, but there are some general consensuses).

I suggest that you go read a good deal about Asatru and Viking age religion (check out the source thread in the Asatru SIG), pin down the essentials, and then see where there are room for the inclusion of outside material - without upsetting/compromising the essentials.
That would IMO be one way of having a meaningful, eclectic religion - build on an Asatru foundation (!).

There are overlaps between Celtic and Norse religions, however, there has not been nearly enough research into it. I do not know enough about Celtic religion, or about the mixing of Norse and Celtic culture in the British Isles, to say exactly how compatible the religions would be though - I do not expect them to be fully compatible, but there are probably some significant overlaps...

My suggestion would be to do research and then pin down the essentials (as above), using one as a framework and the other as a complimentary layer where it fits.

Another suggestion would be to go with the religions as separate, and go about your Asatru rituals while leaving the Celtic at home and vice versa.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 06:35:38 am by hlewagastir »

Hekla

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Re: Asatru and CR
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2013, 08:00:44 am »
Quote from: herkles;129988
I am not sure what other heathens think of worshiping and honoring other paths along with the Norse Gods and goddesses.

Given the nature of my path, I would say go for it.  I don't consider myself Asatru as I don't like organized religions and labels of that nature.  I try to live how my ancestors lived, and that included respecting and honoring the gods of other regions.  So no, I don't think any gods or goddesses on either side will be angry with you if choose to honor both pantheons.  In fact, in my experience, Thor and Perun get along quite well.

Quote
I know for myself, one of the things that I do not agree with is the concept of Ragnarok, or any sort of end of the world scenario. This is actually one of the things that pushed me towards the Irish side first, because I just don't believe in such a scenario.

Personally, I view Ragnarok as more of a metaphor.  Because of the time it was written down, as well as all the other sagas and Eddas, I think it was heavily influenced by Christian themes, and remember hearing somewhere (Clash of the Gods: Thor on the History Channel) that said Christians, in order to convert the Vikings, managed to convince them that Lif and Lifthrasir were just different names for Adam and Eve, and that the events of Genesis took place after Ragnarok.  Effectively, they convinced them that their gods were already dead and that Jesus was Baldur.
 
I do believe that Earth will be consumed/destroyed by fire, but that's just because the sun will have reached the end of its life by then, expand, and then blow up, taking a few planets with it.  But that's not for another few trillion years (speculated).:D:

bobthesane

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Re: Asatru and CR
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2013, 08:33:10 am »
Quote from: herkles;129988
Hello,

Lately I have been feeling drawn towards heathenry. Now as I others might know I am an Irish Polytheist, that is what I have been drawn to and still am drawn to. Now when I started on a pagan path, I was actually sort of torn between both the Norse and the Irish deities, but I felt a bigger connection with the Irish.

I am not sure what other heathens think of worshiping and honoring other paths along with the Norse Gods and goddesses.  I sometimes get the feeling that it is only the Norse when I read online.

I am not sure how much cross-pollination Ireland and the Norse had before Ireland became christian. Though Ireland did get plenty later after Ireland been christian. But, I am wondering how similar are the belief structures, from my understanding so far I get the feeling that they are rather similar. But from others who are Heathens of any sort what are your thoughts on how similar and compatible the two are or are not?

I know for myself, one of the things that I do not agree with is the concept of Ragnarok, or any sort of end of the world scenario. This is actually one of the things that pushed me towards the Irish side first, because I just don't believe in such a scenario.

If I happen to have any other questions, I might ask them here.

sincerely,

-herkles

There is an ENORMOUS amount of cross-pollination between Ireland and Iceland, to the point that genetically most Icelanders today are predominately Irish (some of them upwards of 90%!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelanders#Genetics (just as a quick search result, there are plenty more resources online)

Also, let's not forget that places like Dublin were founded by the Norse.

I know that I, personally, don't find the Celtic deities to be nearly as 'foreign' as, say, an Egyptian deity.

More like, they are the next door neighbors with whom you have barbecues and garage sales :)

Huscarl

Re: Asatru and CR
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2013, 08:58:32 am »
Quote from: bobthesane;130038
There is an ENORMOUS amount of cross-pollination between Ireland and Iceland, to the point that genetically most Icelanders today are predominately Irish (some of them upwards of 90%!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelanders#Genetics (just as a quick search result, there are plenty more resources online)

Also, let's not forget that places like Dublin were founded by the Norse.

I know that I, personally, don't find the Celtic deities to be nearly as 'foreign' as, say, an Egyptian deity.

More like, they are the next door neighbors with whom you have barbecues and garage sales :)

 
When the Norse arrived to Ireland I think Ireland was pretty much Christianised by then (same with Scotland) so I don't think that Celtic Paganism and Germanic Paganism ever mixed in the British Isles at least.

A Disgruntled Scotsman

Re: Asatru and CR
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2013, 10:26:12 am »
Quote from: Huscarl;130039
When the Norse arrived to Ireland I think Ireland was pretty much Christianised by then (same with Scotland) so I don't think that Celtic Paganism and Germanic Paganism ever mixed in the British Isles at least.

 
Did the Saxons ever trade/intermingle with the Britons, the Picts or the Scots(who might have been nominally Pagan when the kingdom of Dal Riada was founded)?
/ | \\     Be The Awen!

Member of the British Druid Order.

Huscarl

Re: Asatru and CR
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2013, 10:44:14 am »
Quote from: A Disgruntled Scotsman;130046
Did the Saxons ever trade/intermingle with the Britons, the Picts or the Scots(who might have been nominally Pagan when the kingdom of Dal Riada was founded)?

 
The Romano British were predominantly Christian when the Angles, Saxons and Jutes arrived, they got pushed to Wales and Cornwall.  The Romans basically stamped out Druidism in Roman Britain which was a big part of Celtic Paganism.

As far as I can remember, Scotland and Ireland were already Christian (they had their different kind of Christianity which was mixed with Celtic Paganism tradition - called Celtic Christianity) or was almost completely Christian when the Angles, Saxons and Jutes arrived.

And within 120 years of arriving in Britain all the Anglo Saxon kingdoms converted to Christianity anyway, so there would have been a small small gap, if any at all that Celtic Paganism and Germanic Paganism could mix.

You might have to look at the borders of Gaul and Germania before the Romans came in to see if any mixing took place.

bobthesane

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Re: Asatru and CR
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2013, 09:39:39 pm »
Quote from: Huscarl;130039
When the Norse arrived to Ireland I think Ireland was pretty much Christianised by then (same with Scotland) so I don't think that Celtic Paganism and Germanic Paganism ever mixed in the British Isles at least.

no,I didn't mean that the gods themselves mingled. I meant that the cultures did. Sorry I should have made that more clear. My point being, cultural similarity (or at least empathy) makes it easier to understand the deities that came from that culture, if that makes sense.

Micheál

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Re: Asatru and CR
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2013, 10:59:42 am »
Quote from: herkles;129988
Hello,

Lately I have been feeling drawn towards heathenry. Now as I others might know I am an Irish Polytheist, that is what I have been drawn to and still am drawn to. Now when I started on a pagan path, I was actually sort of torn between both the Norse and the Irish deities, but I felt a bigger connection with the Irish.

I am not sure what other heathens think of worshiping and honoring other paths along with the Norse Gods and goddesses.  I sometimes get the feeling that it is only the Norse when I read online.

I am not sure how much cross-pollination Ireland and the Norse had before Ireland became christian. Though Ireland did get plenty later after Ireland been christian. But, I am wondering how similar are the belief structures, from my understanding so far I get the feeling that they are rather similar. But from others who are Heathens of any sort what are your thoughts on how similar and compatible the two are or are not?

I know for myself, one of the things that I do not agree with is the concept of Ragnarok, or any sort of end of the world scenario. This is actually one of the things that pushed me towards the Irish side first, because I just don't believe in such a scenario.

If I happen to have any other questions, I might ask them here.

sincerely,

-herkles

In pre-Christian times they were similar, yet different cultures, with seperate world-views. The Norse influenced Irish culture, but Ireland was Christianised by the time they came, therefore there no historic syncretisations.

It depends on what kind of polytheist you are. If a multi-cultural one, then sure, many do. If a Reconstructionist, it would probably be refrained from as there isn't that historic link. The Irish may Gaelicise foreign practises, but they keep their world-view.

There are paths out there for those coming from the same place you are, like this for ex.,
http://dunsgathan.net/tns/what.htm
....however the syncreticism isn't pre-Christian.
Semper Fidelis

Holdasown

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Re: Asatru and CR
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2013, 09:23:55 am »
Quote from: herkles;129988
Hello,

Lately I have been feeling drawn towards heathenry. Now as I others might know I am an Irish Polytheist, that is what I have been drawn to and still am drawn to. Now when I started on a pagan path, I was actually sort of torn between both the Norse and the Irish deities, but I felt a bigger connection with the Irish.

I am not sure what other heathens think of worshiping and honoring other paths along with the Norse Gods and goddesses.  I sometimes get the feeling that it is only the Norse when I read online.

I am not sure how much cross-pollination Ireland and the Norse had before Ireland became christian. Though Ireland did get plenty later after Ireland been christian. But, I am wondering how similar are the belief structures, from my understanding so far I get the feeling that they are rather similar. But from others who are Heathens of any sort what are your thoughts on how similar and compatible the two are or are not?

I know for myself, one of the things that I do not agree with is the concept of Ragnarok, or any sort of end of the world scenario. This is actually one of the things that pushed me towards the Irish side first, because I just don't believe in such a scenario.

If I happen to have any other questions, I might ask them here.

sincerely,

-herkles

 
I don't know how much of a hard polytheist you are but Waincraft takes European "powers" and applies them to various god in all the Indo-European pantheons. You may find it interesting. I like elements of it but I still consider the gods to be individuals. I have never found the gods to be too tight on followers staying in their particular pantheon only.

herkles

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Re: Asatru and CR
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2013, 06:15:00 pm »
Quote from: Hekla;130035

Personally, I view Ragnarok as more of a metaphor.  Because of the time it was written down, as well as all the other sagas and Eddas, I think it was heavily influenced by Christian themes, and remember hearing somewhere (Clash of the Gods: Thor on the History Channel) that said Christians, in order to convert the Vikings, managed to convince them that Lif and Lifthrasir were just different names for Adam and Eve, and that the events of Genesis took place after Ragnarok.  Effectively, they convinced them that their gods were already dead and that Jesus was Baldur.


First, thanks for the encourgement. :) Also could you explain more how you view ragnarok as a metaphor? I am curious to hear more about it.
 
Quote from: Micheál;130143

There are paths out there for those coming from the same place you are, like this for ex.,
http://dunsgathan.net/tns/what.htm


Thanks for the link. :)

I did find this article on Irish Archeology about Thor's Wood interesting. Sure it is after the conversion, but the fact that Thor had a grove sacred to him near dublin is interesting.

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Re: Asatru and CR
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2013, 05:11:30 am »
Quote from: herkles;130338
Thanks for the link. :)

I did find this article on Irish Archeology about Thor's Wood interesting. Sure it is after the conversion, but the fact that Thor had a grove sacred to him near dublin is interesting.

No probs. The Irish word for thunder, 'toirneach,' comes from 'Thor' as well.
Semper Fidelis

Fireof9

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Re: Asatru and CR
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2013, 07:32:28 pm »
Quote from: Hekla;130035
I think it was heavily influenced by Christian themes, and remember hearing somewhere (Clash of the Gods: Thor on the History Channel)


No offense but I found that program to be one of the worst things I have ever seen.
Really?  So, hey, want to go fishing?  I\'ve got a telescope, and it\'s going to be a dark night, so we should see the fish really well.
...what, I\'m not talking about fishing?  That\'s stargazing?  It\'s all doing-stuff, so it\'s the same thing, right?
-HeartShadow
 
Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mystery,Today is a gift,thats why the call it the present - Master Oogway

Finding the Owl -my blog
The Gwyddonic Order

Hekla

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Re: Asatru and CR
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2013, 02:15:56 pm »
Quote from: Fireof9;130432
No offense but I found that program to be one of the worst things I have ever seen.

None taken.  I hated it too, but that's where I heard it and I cite my sources regardless.:ange:

Quote from: herkles
Also could you explain more how you view ragnarok as a metaphor? I am curious to hear more about it.

I view it in the same light as theologians view the book of Revalation: a lot of what was written can be connected with the times then, regarding the Roman empire and all the atrocities facing the young religion.  So in that sense, I view Ragnarok not as an actual end of the world/s, but more of an end of times as they knew them.

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