collapse

* "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" Problem Logging In?

If you get an "Unable to verify referring url. Please go back and try again" error when you try to log in, you need to be sure you are accessing the board with a url that starts with "https://ecauldron.com".  If it starts with https://www.ecauldron.com" (or "http://www.ecauldron.com") you will get this error because "www.ecauldron.com" is not technically the same website as "ecauldron.com". Moving to the more secure "https" means it is more picky about such things.

Author Topic: Need a divine judge/arbitrator  (Read 449 times)

ehbowen

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 946
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 143
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Need a divine judge/arbitrator
« on: October 08, 2018, 04:00:10 am »
Hi. I'm posting this under "writing" instead of Gods/Goddesses because I'm looking for a name (three names, actually) that I can use in a fictional story that I'm putting together. The setup is that (my) God and Satan have a dispute, and Satan has demanded that my God recuse himself. I have a party in mind that I'm planning to have both of them agree to cede judgment to (the "Watchers", from the book of Daniel), but I'd like to have (preferably) three names as "throwaways" which Satan will propose but will ultimately prove unsuitable due to hidden connections, prejudice, history of unfair dealings, or some other such. So, with that in mind, can anyone suggest a name or two of an entity or group of entities which sometimes play a role as an arbitrator or judge but who can credibly be suspected of having a thumb on the scales...and who, preferably, won't take it too personally about being mentioned as such in passing (in a fictional context, of course)!
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

ehbowen

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 946
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 143
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Need a divine judge/arbitrator
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2018, 05:35:06 am »
So, with that in mind, can anyone suggest a name or two of an entity or group of entities which sometimes play a role as an arbitrator or judge but who can credibly be suspected of having a thumb on the scales...and who, preferably, won't take it too personally about being mentioned as such in passing (in a fictional context, of course)!

Adding a thought: Not necessarily a "thumb on the scales"; for my purposes it would also be suitable if the entity in question simply doesn't want to be embroiled in the middle of this dispute.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

Jainarayan

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2014
  • Location: New Jersey
  • Posts: 532
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 103
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hinduism
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Need a divine judge/arbitrator
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2018, 10:33:18 am »
...can anyone suggest a name or two of an entity or group of entities which sometimes play a role as an arbitrator or judge but who can credibly be suspected of having a thumb on the scales...and who, preferably, won't take it too personally about being mentioned as such in passing (in a fictional context, of course)!

In Hinduism Yama (aka Dharmarāja, "Lord of Righteousness" and Yamarāja, "Lord Yama"), is the judge of the underworld, where souls are said to stop by on their journey towards rebirth. He has associates, one of whom is Chitragupta, the karmic bookkeeper. The thing is that I don't know if he's considered partial in any way, i.e. the thumb on the scale. Hindu gods generally have no self-serving interests.
śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ
Vishnu's appearance is Shiva; Shiva's appearance is Vishnu
Vishnu is the heart of Shiva; Shiva is the heart of Vishnu - Skandopanishad
 

ehbowen

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 946
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 143
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Need a divine judge/arbitrator
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2018, 11:03:02 am »
In Hinduism Yama (aka Dharmarāja, "Lord of Righteousness" and Yamarāja, "Lord Yama"), is the judge of the underworld, where souls are said to stop by on their journey towards rebirth. He has associates, one of whom is Chitragupta, the karmic bookkeeper. The thing is that I don't know if he's considered partial in any way, i.e. the thumb on the scale. Hindu gods generally have no self-serving interests.

I'm trying to stay consistent with personalities, at least as best I understand them. As I understand the personality of Satan, it seems unlikely that he would nominate someone known as the "Lord of Righteousness" as an arbitrator. Although it might play in well as an alternate on my God's side. Here's how I'm picturing the scene developing:
  • Satan demands my God recuse himself.
  • My God says, "Fine", and nominates the Watchers as arbitrator.
  • Satan objects, but can't give a real reason and is unwilling to use a "strike". He instead proposes alternate A.
  • My God points out that Alternate A has ties to Satan which make him partial. Strike, but for cause.
  • Satan proposes Alternate B. My God is aware of and points out evidence of another, more closely concealed tie. Again, strike for cause.
  • Satan, exasperated, asks my God, "Who else would you pick?" This might be a good point at which to insert your suggestion of Dharmarāja.
  • Satan strenuously objects to anyone known as the "Lord of Righteousness." My God asks, "So are you using your strike now?" and Satan replies yes.
  • Satan proposes Alternate C. To his surprise my God doesn't object, but says, "Let's ask him." It turns out Alternate C doesn't want to be enmeshed in this conflict.
  • At which point my God says, "And so we're back to the Watchers." Satan doesn't like this, but he can point out no objection for cause and he's already used his strike, so he has to assent (or else give up on resolving the dispute, but at issue is something which he really, really wants).
  • And the story continues on from there....

So, what I'm hoping to find are believable options for alternates A, B, and C. Thanks for providing the information you did, though!

--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

ehbowen

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 946
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 143
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Need a divine judge/arbitrator
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2018, 12:16:53 pm »
I'm trying to stay consistent with personalities...Satan, exasperated, asks my God, "Who else would you pick?" This might be a good point at which to insert your suggestion of Dharmarāja.

Speaking of staying consistent with personalities...time to rethink this again. One of the spiritual principles which I have underlying this story is that, given the same information and the same freedom from bias, a jury of disparate personalities which comes to a unanimous verdict (which is how I believe my Godhead operates) will always do a better job of rendering a just verdict than a single individual judge, no matter how fair. So, nothing against Yama, but I think that my God would be more likely to name some body of divine personalities (Muses, perhaps?) instead of a single person with a single viewpoint. Still, thanks for the suggestion.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3165
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 89
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Need a divine judge/arbitrator
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2018, 01:44:04 pm »
Adding a thought: Not necessarily a "thumb on the scales"; for my purposes it would also be suitable if the entity in question simply doesn't want to be embroiled in the middle of this dispute.
I suppose I could see Tyr not wanting to deal with their monkeys because he has his own circus to deal with.

It might prove hard to find gods associated with justice and arbitration who have clear and obvious ties to Satan? Nobody is coming to mind for me anyway.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3165
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 89
    • View Profile
    • Jack of Many Trades
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Need a divine judge/arbitrator
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2018, 01:45:47 pm »
Speaking of staying consistent with personalities...time to rethink this again. One of the spiritual principles which I have underlying this story is that, given the same information and the same freedom from bias, a jury of disparate personalities which comes to a unanimous verdict (which is how I believe my Godhead operates) will always do a better job of rendering a just verdict than a single individual judge, no matter how fair. So, nothing against Yama, but I think that my God would be more likely to name some body of divine personalities (Muses, perhaps?) instead of a single person with a single viewpoint. Still, thanks for the suggestion.
Oh nevermind.

What's the argument about? It might be easier to think of groups or powers who are associated with a specific thing that Satan could propose as subject matter experts and God could have objections to.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

ehbowen

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 946
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 143
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Need a divine judge/arbitrator
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2018, 02:54:16 pm »
I suppose I could see Tyr not wanting to deal with their monkeys because he has his own circus to deal with.

It might prove hard to find gods associated with justice and arbitration who have clear and obvious ties to Satan? Nobody is coming to mind for me anyway.

Understood, but at least in my scenario he's not looking for a fair arbitration, he's looking for a figurehead he can put up as an arbitrator. At least in the first round, swing for the fences. In the second round he's trying to sneak one by; that'll be the toughie. The third time around he's out of strikes and just hoping for someone who will rule his way; I think Tyr might be a very good choice for that one.

Oh nevermind.

What's the argument about? It might be easier to think of groups or powers who are associated with a specific thing that Satan could propose as subject matter experts and God could have objections to.

The argument is to settle a wager over the keys of hell and death, which will ultimately turn upon whether a particular human (character in the story) can truly be considered a "righteous man".
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

Aster Breo

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2786
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Total likes: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Need a divine judge/arbitrator
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2018, 11:59:38 pm »
Understood, but at least in my scenario he's not looking for a fair arbitration, he's looking for a figurehead he can put up as an arbitrator. At least in the first round, swing for the fences. In the second round he's trying to sneak one by; that'll be the toughie. The third time around he's out of strikes and just hoping for someone who will rule his way; I think Tyr might be a very good choice for that one.

The argument is to settle a wager over the keys of hell and death, which will ultimately turn upon whether a particular human (character in the story) can truly be considered a "righteous man".
Brighid might suit your needs -- but I don't think you could credibly argue that She has a thumb on the scale in favor of Satan. It's the opposite, actually, since many believe the goddess Brighid and Saint Brigit are avatars of each other or, at least, connected in some way.

Check out this essay:  https://clannbhride.wordpress.com/articles-and-essays/finding-brighid-in-the-ancient-lore/, which talks about the various ways Brighid has appeared in the lore and the various guises She's appeared in.

There are a couple of sections in there about the Brids who were lawgivers/judges. You could even consider the Brids as a "set", similar in their multiplicity to the Norns.

Look at the section called The Three Brigits of Ulster, specifically these 2 subsections:

– Senchus Mor (The Great Tradition)


– Din Techtugad (The Law of Taking Possession, from Ancient Laws and Institutes of Ireland, Volume IV, Din Techtugad and Certain Other Selected Brehon Law Tracts)

Also, there's a citation in there to a presentation by Katharine Simms, called "Bríg Brethach: ‘Bríg of the Judgements’". I think I have that document in my files.  If you think it would be helpful to you, PM me.

As I said above, I don't think you can make a case, even in fiction, that Brighid has secret ties to Satan. And I'm pretty sure She would not take kindly to that characterization at all. So I REALLY wouldn't recommend that.

But, if you consider the saint to be connected to the goddess, you could certainly argue Her links to the other side.




Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

"The status is not quo."  ~ Dr. Horrible
[/B]

ehbowen

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 946
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 143
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Need a divine judge/arbitrator
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2018, 01:56:16 am »
Brighid might suit your needs -- but I don't think you could credibly argue that She has a thumb on the scale in favor of Satan. It's the opposite, actually, since many believe the goddess Brighid and Saint Brigit are avatars of each other or, at least, connected in some way.

I don't think that Brighid really fits in this situation, except perhaps in the way I'm thinking of using Jack's suggestion of Tyr...as someone who would be an honest and fair judge, but who really doesn't want to get in the middle of this. But, at least as I understand her, Brighid probably WOULD want to be involved with this. So....

Maybe what I need to find is a fairly comprehensive reference of deities and (especially) deity groups. After fifty years as a fundamentalist, I'm somewhat mythologically challenged....
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

Aster Breo

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2786
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Total likes: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Need a divine judge/arbitrator
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2018, 02:19:44 am »
I don't think that Brighid really fits in this situation, except perhaps in the way I'm thinking of using Jack's suggestion of Tyr...as someone who would be an honest and fair judge, but who really doesn't want to get in the middle of this. But, at least as I understand her, Brighid probably WOULD want to be involved with this. So....

Maybe what I need to find is a fairly comprehensive reference of deities and (especially) deity groups. After fifty years as a fundamentalist, I'm somewhat mythologically challenged....

I don't think that Brighid really fits in this situation, except perhaps in the way I'm thinking of using Jack's suggestion of Tyr...as someone who would be an honest and fair judge, but who really doesn't want to get in the middle of this. But, at least as I understand her, Brighid probably WOULD want to be involved with this. So....

I don't know if Brighid would want to be involved in this situation or not. If She was involved, though, She'd be on the side of good and She'd support the downtrodden.  But you asked for arbiter types and, especially, groups. She fits that description.

Not really knowing your story, it's hard to make suggestions. That said, maybe Anubis? Also, I think there's a trio of underworld judges in Greek mythology -- I think King Midas is one of those?

It's an interesting question.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

"The status is not quo."  ~ Dr. Horrible
[/B]

Ashmire

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2017
  • Posts: 194
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 24
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Eclectic
Re: Need a divine judge/arbitrator
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2018, 08:23:54 am »
Maybe what I need to find is a fairly comprehensive reference of deities and (especially) deity groups. After fifty years as a fundamentalist, I'm somewhat mythologically challenged....

I don't think you're going to find a morally ambiguous character who would have ever been viewed as a judge, certainly not many of them.  IIRC, Mafdet was a judge of the dead before Maat became personified and took on that role, but she strikes me as extremely righteous,  and with that whole Garden of Eden thing, I don't think someone called Serpent-Slayer would be joining Satan.

As for comprehensive deity references you're probably going to have to  go by pantheon because that is a LOT of info, but here's a pretty big one for Egyptian gods: https://henadology.wordpress.com/theology/netjeru/

EnderDragonFire

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2017
  • Location: Kentucky
  • Posts: 626
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 184
  • Ad dea gloriam
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Sri Vaishnavism
  • Preferred Pronouns: any
Re: Need a divine judge/arbitrator
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2018, 11:40:04 pm »
What's the argument about? It might be easier to think of groups or powers who are associated with a specific thing that Satan could propose as subject matter experts and God could have objections to.

Yeah, in broad strokes, what might the argument be about?
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

ehbowen

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 946
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 143
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Need a divine judge/arbitrator
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2018, 04:39:57 am »
Yeah, in broad strokes, what might the argument be about?

Excerpt from the opening of the episode:

Quote
Satan
...and so I think that’s settled. You yourself agreed that faith would be the yardstick.

Father
I have thousands of believers with very great faith!

Satan
Thousands? I have millions! Even billions, by some measures!

Father
Billions? Ninety percent of your followers are just going through the motions for reasons of expedience!

Satan
As are yours. But at the core, I have mighty armies all willing to give their lives!

Father
I don’t need an army. I just need one man.

Satan laughs.

Satan
Where will you find him?

Father
I have thousands who have proven faithful unto death.

Satan
Oh, yes; you’ve given me some trouble here and there. But we always come back to the fact that ninety percent of humans prefer my leadership to yours.

Father
That’s because they haven’t seen “your leadership”. You have no idea how much effort we’ve put into keeping that world livable!

Satan
Oh, yes, very nice. Thank you. I’ve come to truly appreciate a fine brandy. Or a toke of that OG Kush… I’ll savor a blunt of it in your honor. After you surrender.

Father
I have not yet begun to fight.

Satan laughs again.

Satan
Such confidence calls for a small wager!

A beat; then he leans over with a deeply feral expression. This is important to him.

Satan
I want the key back!

Father
And I want the other key. And everything it unlocks. Everything!

Satan is confident, but still hesitant. This is the ultimate “table stakes to the draw”.

Satan
Perhaps…

Father
Nothing less. No more deals. I’ve been burned too many times before!

Satan
(Swallows.) Done. What are you holding?

Father
Have you considered my servant Christopher?

Satan
Who?

And from there it leads into heaven, hell, alternate realities, and more. Yes, the good guys win...but there are a few twists and turns along the way.

Maybe I shouldn't, but I feel obliged to include the tag ending:

Quote
EXT. MANSION GROUNDS - DAY

A bright, sunny day on the grounds of an elaborate mansion. Several GARDENERS are scattered in b.g. A pack of about a half-dozen DOGS are playing on the beautifully manicured lawn. One squats, and defecates.

Enter Satan, wearing grey coveralls and carrying a five gallon pail with a box of plastic doo-doo bags strapped to the side. He moans, but goes over to the scene of the crime, pulls out a bag, and begins to pick up the poopy.

As he is there the HEAD GARDENER stops by for a visit.

Head gardener
When you’re done here, there’s more for you on the far side of the swimming pool.

Satan shakes his head and moans again. One of the dogs comes up to him and licks him in the face as we FADE OUT for good…
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!

EnderDragonFire

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Mar 2017
  • Location: Kentucky
  • Posts: 626
  • Attack: 100
    Defense: 100
    Attack Member
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 184
  • Ad dea gloriam
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Sri Vaishnavism
  • Preferred Pronouns: any
Re: Need a divine judge/arbitrator
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2018, 12:22:14 pm »

Well, one option is always Minos. He's not a deity, but he does serve as a judge in Greek mythology, and is a common figure in Christian fiction as well, and he was hardly a moral paragon. I could see him pushing the scales in Satan's favor, if he had sufficient incentive to do so.

"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Tags: judges arbitrators 
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
2 Replies
1007 Views
Last post July 15, 2011, 03:06:57 am
by Asch
2 Replies
1077 Views
Last post July 20, 2011, 08:11:45 pm
by Adrianne Boudreau
1 Replies
699 Views
Last post August 13, 2012, 09:36:52 pm
by victoreia
40 Replies
2620 Views
Last post September 11, 2012, 04:07:59 pm
by Aster Breo
23 Replies
1552 Views
Last post November 19, 2012, 10:44:30 pm
by RandallS

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 30
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 4
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Co-Hosts:
LyricFox & Randall

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Sunflower

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Board Staff:
Allaya, Chatelaine, HarpingHawke, Jenett, Morag, rocquelaire, Sefiru, Tana

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

Reserve Staff:
Aisling, Bob, Catja, Fausta, Sperran, Steve

Cauldron Council:
Emma-Eldritch, Everfool, Jubes, Kelly, Koi, Melamphoros, Ocelot, Phouka, Sashapablo, Star

Cauldron Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]

Site Assistants
[Non-Staff Positions]
Webmaster:
Randall