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Author Topic: Which Celtic Tradition?  (Read 13142 times)

Vale

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Re: Which Celtic Tradition?
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2012, 06:13:48 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;36994




As I understand it, y is a short u (as in, f'ex, "under"), w is a long u or oo (as in "food"); ll is kind of a swallowed L sound.  (I'm sure linguists have a proper word for that, but my command of Linguist is not much better than my Welsh:).)  Your description of f's and ff's is in accordance with my own understanding.

Sunflower


Depends on whether you are speaking north Welsh or south.

There is a quite a difference in the two and the pronunciation differs quite markedly.   Y has two completely different pronunciations depending on  where it is in the word. These vary further depending on whether it is north or south!

Ll is very hard for native english speakers to master. The best way to attempt it is to make the prepartions to say luh and then blow out softly as you ennunciate it.

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Re: Which Celtic Tradition?
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2012, 11:59:40 am »
Quote from: Vale;37165
Depends on whether you are speaking north Welsh or south.

There is a quite a difference in the two and the pronunciation differs quite markedly.   Y has two completely different pronunciations depending on  where it is in the word. These vary further depending on whether it is north or south!

Ll is very hard for native english speakers to master. The best way to attempt it is to make the prepartions to say luh and then blow out softly as you ennunciate it.

 
Oh, good, you're exactly who I was hoping might chime in!  Thank you.

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Aster Breo

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Re: Which Celtic Tradition?
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2012, 11:58:13 pm »
Quote from: River;37136
It may very well do for the purpose that I bought the book - to understand the yearly Celtic spiritual cycle.

 
You might find this small chunk of review (from the CR FAQ) helpful.  :)
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AlisonLeighLilly

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Re: Which Celtic Tradition?
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2012, 01:50:21 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;37312
You might find this small chunk of review (from the CR FAQ) helpful.  :)

 
I don't mean for this to be off-topic (so forgive me if it belongs elsewhere!) - but every time I see a link to the CR FAQ reading list, it reminds me of a question that I usually forget to ask and so don't have a good answer to. And that is:

Other than the CR FAQ itself and the book(s) by Erynn Rowan Laurie - are there any recommended books about Celtic Reconstructionism that are actually by people who identify as belonging to the CR community?

Whenever I see Alexei's book taking heat for being "pre-CR," I'm reminded just how young the CR community really is... and how I wish there were more CR folks writing books as alternatives to what they see as problematic about Alexei's. (Not to mention the irony of a book being "too old" to be considered a good source for a community focused on reconstructing an ancient religion. Which is true about some academic/scholarly sources, too, since the research is always changing and evolving. CR always kind of struck me as being in a very awkward race in opposite directions - towards the past and the future - trying to balance cultural memories lost to the mists of time with the constantly updating absolutely-most-recent research in the academic field. Maybe there are so few books by CR people about CR because in a few years they'd just be relegated to the "Old Gramps" corner with Alexei! ;))

I hope I'm not stepping on any toes! Guess this is just why I never felt all that bad about not being CR. May the gods, if not the CR FAQ, forgive us for not knowing everything about everything already. ;)

--Ali

Finn

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Re: Which Celtic Tradition?
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2012, 12:30:03 am »
Quote from: AlisonLeighLilly;37360

Other than the CR FAQ itself and the book(s) by Erynn Rowan Laurie - are there any recommended books about Celtic Reconstructionism that are actually by people who identify as belonging to the CR community?

 
Hm. I can think of two books.

One is Celtic Flame by Aedh Rua... who no longer identifies as CR, and emphatically states that the book is simply an approach (his approach) to Irish pagan religion. : /

The other is Land, Sea, and Sky ... which is an online book collaboration by several different members of the CR community. Obviously, this is much closer to your ask than the other, and I've read both, but Celtic Flame is far more... uh... like a guidebook, or a handbook. LSS is like a collection of articles on Celtic religion.

And for what it's worth, I don't think you're stepping on any toes here. Quite of few of us here in the SIG don't identify as reconstructionists, despite our desire to be as historically informed as possible. Which is why, in our description we say:

"Our members come from a wide variety of religions and paths; some may be wholly Celtic in focus, and others may not.
We have a healthy love and respect for history and research, and welcome unproven spiritual gnosis when it is properly identified. We are not a strictly recon-oriented SIG." ;)

Quote from: AlisonLeighLilly;37360
Whenever I see Alexei's book taking heat for being "pre-CR," I'm reminded just how young the CR community really is... and how I wish there were more CR folks writing books as alternatives to what they see as problematic about Alexei's.


(Bold mine)

Aedh Rua, fortunately and to his credit, did just that in his writing Celtic Flame. It's a fine little book.

Quote
(Not to mention the irony of a book being "too old" to be considered a good source for a community focused on reconstructing an ancient religion. Which is true about some academic/scholarly sources, too, since the research is always changing and evolving. CR always kind of struck me as being in a very awkward race in opposite directions - towards the past and the future - trying to balance cultural memories lost to the mists of time with the constantly updating absolutely-most-recent research in the academic field. Maybe there are so few books by CR people about CR because in a few years they'd just be relegated to the "Old Gramps" corner with Alexei!


(Bold again mine)

*nod again* Yeah, CR is certainly more public about being in that awkward race, but I do think any Celtic pagan who wants that foundation in history finds themselves in the same kind of place from time to time. Maybe to less extent than a self-identified recon.

The problem with "stuff that is too old for CR" is that a lot of the actual old stuff is... erm... very, very delicate, at best, or problematic most of the time, and completely wilddifferent at other times. Useful, perhaps for many different things, but not for reconstructing ancient religions.

... which is why I don't try. :D:
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River

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Re: Which Celtic Tradition?
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2012, 12:50:10 am »
Quote from: Aster Breo;37312
You might find this small chunk of review (from the CR FAQ) helpful.  :)

 
Thanks Aster and for everyone else who has posted on this! It is ironic that I was trying to get away from some of the "fluffy,romantic" Celtic stuff out there and I thought I had found it in this, so I am glad for the reviews here. It was one of those cheap used books, so nothing lost, and I still will read it and see what can be gleaned. The truth is, nothing is stagnant and even if Celtic paganism had survived culturally intact, it would look different then it did way back then anyways.

River

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Re: Which Celtic Tradition?
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2012, 02:08:59 am »
Quote from: River;37442
It is ironic that I was trying to get away from some of the "fluffy,romantic" Celtic stuff out there and I thought I had found it in this, so I am glad for the reviews here. It was one of those cheap used books, so nothing lost, and I still will read it and see what can be gleaned. The truth is, nothing is stagnant and even if Celtic paganism had survived culturally intact, it would look different then it did way back then anyways.
River

Although the book is considered "Proto-CR', and better fits a Neopagan context, I would still be hesitant to call it 'fluffy' or 'romantic'.
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Aster Breo

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Re: Which Celtic Tradition?
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2012, 02:35:01 am »
Quote from: Finn;37440
Hm. I can think of two books.

 
What Finn said.

There's also a recently published book called Celtic Spirit-Fire: An Adventurous Journey Into The Sacred World by Michael J. McCoy, which is more like a "handbook" for people on a Celtic path.  I have it, but haven't read it, so I can't really say whether it's any good.

I think one of the best and most comprehensive resources around right now is Taris, a blog written by TC's own Seren.
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Finn

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Re: Which Celtic Tradition?
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2012, 11:58:32 am »
Quote from: Aster Breo;37451
What Finn said.

There's also a recently published book called Celtic Spirit-Fire: An Adventurous Journey Into The Sacred World by Michael J. McCoy, which is more like a "handbook" for people on a Celtic path.  I have it, but haven't read it, so I can't really say whether it's any good.

I think one of the best and most comprehensive resources around right now is Taris, a blog written by TC's own Seren.


I second Taris, absolutely.

McCoy's book is more like a handbook to another approach to Irish Celtic paganism -- an approach that is quite different from the one espoused in Celtic Flame. It's more of a Ceremonial/BTWish bent to Irish Celtic paganism. Or at least, that's what I gathered. :confused:
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AlisonLeighLilly

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Re: Which Celtic Tradition?
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2012, 12:30:22 pm »
Quote from: Finn;37440
Hm. I can think of two books.

One is Celtic Flame by Aedh Rua... who no longer identifies as CR, and emphatically states that the book is simply an approach (his approach) to Irish pagan religion. : /

The other is Land, Sea, and Sky ... which is an online book collaboration by several different members of the CR community. Obviously, this is much closer to your ask than the other, and I've read both, but Celtic Flame is far more... uh... like a guidebook, or a handbook. LSS is like a collection of articles on Celtic religion.


 
Thanks for the recommendations, Finn!

I've heard of Land, Sea and Sky and actually have it bookmarked, although I have to admit I've never had the time/patience to sit down and read through the whole thing. (I tend to get antsy when trying to read long texts on a computer screen.)

Aedh Rua's book is not one I'd heard of before. ::runs away to add to wish list!::  :) Some of the reviews on Amazon aren't very pretty, but many of the criticisms seem... odd. Disagreements over theological interpretation seems to me to be a whole different animal from accusations of inaccurate scholarship, but some of the nastier reviews don't seem to make a distinction between the two - and they wield the "UPG" label like a bludgeon to make their point.

I guess that's where I start to feel uncomfortable with CR. My understanding is that folks in CR approach Celtic Reconstructionism as first and foremost based upon academic/scholarly work, turning to UPG only to "fill in the gaps" that scholarship can't. This reminds me a lot of the "god of the gaps" approach to monotheism that has caused so much trouble among modern Abrahamic religions when faced with the conflicting authority of "inspired" sacred texts and scientific knowledge - except in this case, CR comes down firmly on the other side of that divide. What's ironic is that in both cases, each religious community comes down in favor of external authority. The CR approach says it is better to trust the external authority of careful and objective scholarship and research than the personal interpretive and experiential engagement that they call "UPG" - and the literalist/fundamentalist monotheists say it is better to trust the external authority of ancient sacred texts as the "word of God" than the attempts of science and scholarship as merely human (and therefore flawed) endeavors to discover truth. But in both cases, the emphasis is on finding a trustworthy external authority (the only difference is how "trustworthy" and "external" are defined).

Maybe it's my own streak of stubbornness - but I'm not keen on religions that emphasize external authority over personal relationship. I much prefer spiritual traditions that emphasize the difficult but necessary work of balancing and, when possible, reconciling the two. One consequence of the CR approach, for instance, is that while it tends to emphasize a "hard polytheism" that views the gods as real, distinct beings - it also undermines the CR practitioner's ability to engage authentically with them in the present, since he or she is expected to ignore or at least distrust any insight about or experience of them that contradicts the external authority of current academic scholarship. To me, that seems a bit like trying to be friends with someone while constantly comparing what they say and do against their high school report cards and SAT scores. Sure, that kind of information can give you insight into who they were and who they've become (and it provides an "objective," standardized measure that I guess would be helpful in catching a perpetrator of identity theft), but it seems an odd way to try to cultivate a relationship in the here and now. And what's especially weird to me is that the ancient Celts did not even have a concept of "objective scholarly research" - so the very attitude that such research should take precedence over "UPG" is pretty much by definition not part of the worldview of ancient Celtic tradition.

I think CR folks would respond (and have responded) that Celtic Reconstructionism is inherently a modern phenomenon and so obviously it will be influenced and shaped by the knowledge and culture of modern Western society. That's great, as far as it goes, but it's basically another way of saying that they feel comfortable picking and choosing the ways in which they strive to emulate ancient Celtic cultures. That's something we all have to do, in the end, if we want to have any kind of Celtic-inspired spiritual practice today. It's the unspoken, unacknowledged assumptions that underlie the process of picking and choosing that make me uncomfortable.

Sorry to go off on such a tangent! I wonder if Seren or any other CR-leaning (or other reconstructionist) people here on TC have any insight into this issue, from the perspective of someone "on the inside"? I'd love to hear their take on it!

--Ali

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Re: Which Celtic Tradition?
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2012, 12:35:04 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;37451
What Finn said.

There's also a recently published book called Celtic Spirit-Fire: An Adventurous Journey Into The Sacred World by Michael J. McCoy, which is more like a "handbook" for people on a Celtic path.  I have it, but haven't read it, so I can't really say whether it's any good.

I think one of the best and most comprehensive resources around right now is Taris, a blog written by TC's own Seren.

 
Quote from: Finn;37492
I second Taris, absolutely.

McCoy's book is more like a handbook to another approach to Irish Celtic paganism -- an approach that is quite different from the one espoused in Celtic Flame. It's more of a Ceremonial/BTWish bent to Irish Celtic paganism. Or at least, that's what I gathered. :confused:

 
I love Seren's blog/website, though I've used it mostly just as a reference resource. (Someone really ought to invest in making these online texts available in print - even if only print-on-demand - for those of us who can't sit still very long when trying to read off of a screen and also like to take margin notes! :))

I'm definitely adding both Rua's and McCoy's books to my to-read list. Looking at all the different ways people have approached modern Celtic Pagan spiritual practice always leaves me in awe of the diversity and creativity of our community. :)

--Ali

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Re: Which Celtic Tradition?
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2012, 12:39:47 pm »
Quote from: AlisonLeighLilly;37501
I love Seren's blog/website, though I've used it mostly just as a reference resource. (Someone really ought to invest in making these online texts available in print - even if only print-on-demand - for those of us who can't sit still very long when trying to read off of a screen and also like to take margin notes! :))

 
I feel the same way.  I printed out a copy of Land, Sea, and Sky when I first found it, and it's in a binder in my "Celtic library".  Now I need to print out Seren's blog.  Not to mention all those PDFs of Brighid-related articles I've been collecting.  ;)
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AlisonLeighLilly

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Re: Which Celtic Tradition?
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2012, 12:55:59 pm »
Quote from: Aster Breo;37502
I feel the same way.  I printed out a copy of Land, Sea, and Sky when I first found it, and it's in a binder in my "Celtic library".  Now I need to print out Seren's blog.  Not to mention all those PDFs of Brighid-related articles I've been collecting.  ;)

 
::Ali begins scheming of a way to start a POD publishing company for online Celtic-related texts::

Full proceeds to the authors, of course! :)

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Re: Which Celtic Tradition?
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2012, 04:08:07 pm »
Quote from: AlisonLeighLilly;37499
Thanks for the recommendations, Finn!

I've heard of Land, Sea and Sky and actually have it bookmarked, although I have to admit I've never had the time/patience to sit down and read through the whole thing. (I tend to get antsy when trying to read long texts on a computer screen.)


It's certainly worth a read, but I think it lacks one thing that anyone interested in CR really wants to know, and that's what CRs actually do. While it's always highly spoken of - as far as I've seen - I think many are disappointed on that front, at least.

Quote
Aedh Rua's book is not one I'd heard of before. ::runs away to add to wish list!::  :) Some of the reviews on Amazon aren't very pretty, but many of the criticisms seem... odd. Disagreements over theological interpretation seems to me to be a whole different animal from accusations of inaccurate scholarship, but some of the nastier reviews don't seem to make a distinction between the two - and they wield the "UPG" label like a bludgeon to make their point.


It's a controversial book in CR for some - it certainly was when it launched, anyway. As far as the accusations of inaccurate scholarship are concerned I would agree that there are several parts that fall short. I reviewed the book a while ago, which you can read here, and I mentioned some of the problems I found - the Fomorian chapter in particular. The reliance on authors like Sean O' Tuathail is certainly a problem, I think - like Alexei he made a strong contribution to modern Celtic Paganism, but his work doesn't always stand up in terms of scholarship. Since then, I took a look back over it when I was doing research on values and found that much of the Irish terminology used there did not mean what the dictionary defined the words as. Like I said in my review, I felt the book had a decent aim and idea, but fell short all in all, compared to what the book itself was trying to be.

It's not the UPG I have a problem with in it, personally - the ritual isn't CR and I wouldn't expect it to be; the way the gods are interpreted isn't CR and I wouldn't expect them to be either, necessarily, though it is something that will definitely rub some people the wrong way. UPG is something that can be accepted or ignored, by its nature - so long as it's labelled as such. And I suppose that's why I wouldn't recommend it for someone interested in CR; it doesn't represent CR, and at times represents concepts and ideas that are antithetical to it. It is helpful from a practical sense, and while I did find a bit of the liturgy beautiful, the Gàidhlig in an Irish context was a problem for me, and the linguistic criticisms about the Irish that some of the more balanced reviews raised over on Amazon are definitely something to bear in mind. It's not something I would trust, overall.

Quote
I guess that's where I start to feel uncomfortable with CR. My understanding is that folks in CR approach Celtic Reconstructionism as first and foremost based upon academic/scholarly work, turning to UPG only to "fill in the gaps" that scholarship can't.

(snippage)Maybe it's my own streak of stubbornness - but I'm not keen on religions that emphasize external authority over personal relationship. I much prefer spiritual traditions that emphasize the difficult but necessary work of balancing and, when possible, reconciling the two. One consequence of the CR approach, for instance, is that while it tends to emphasize a "hard polytheism" that views the gods as real, distinct beings - it also undermines the CR practitioner's ability to engage authentically with them in the present, since he or she is expected to ignore or at least distrust any insight about or experience of them that contradicts the external authority of current academic scholarship. To me, that seems a bit like trying to be friends with someone while constantly comparing what they say and do against their high school report cards and SAT scores. Sure, that kind of information can give you insight into who they were and who they've become (and it provides an "objective," standardized measure that I guess would be helpful in catching a perpetrator of identity theft), but it seems an odd way to try to cultivate a relationship in the here and now. And what's especially weird to me is that the ancient Celts did not even have a concept of "objective scholarly research" - so the very attitude that such research should take precedence over "UPG" is pretty much by definition not part of the worldview of ancient Celtic tradition.


The thing that occurs to me is, it's because we're a young religion that we must emphasise the scholarly/academic side so much. We're still figuring out how to do things on a practical level, still figuring out how our communities work and fit together, and our starting point is "how did they do it?" It's a huge question, and there isn't ever going to be one answer, but the side-effect at the moment is that while we're figuring stuff out it's the nitpicking and the comparing that stands out. On the other hand, since I don't think CR will ever be liturgically or even ritually prescriptive or standardised, maybe there will always be at least a wee bit of nitpicking. To say the least :p

Perhaps, though, once we become more established and have more to offer in the way or ritual and liturgy then the emphasis will change from what many see as a very dry, academic path mired in the methodology, to something that is more on a par with other reconstructionist religions that are more established. Living traditions. I would hope so, anyway!

What you also seem to be talking about in your post is the view that CR has a very dogmatic approach towards scholarship that stifles practice and experience. That would only be the case, I think, if we didn't have any room to accommodate UPG; but UPG is integral to CR, just like any other religion. Ultimately it has to inform our practices as well as our experiences - it's not like we can ever know for sure what they did, anyway. The difference is, we aim to root our UPG within our specific aims and principles, rather than a more generalised 'because I want to.' From our point of view, we are trying to build a spiritual practice that is at least in some way rooted in the pre-Christian religion of a particular culture and its historical survivals etc. What we are going to end up with is still thoroughly modern, and to many it might seem that we are simply slaves to academics. Then again, conversely, I think for many CR it is inevitable that those who are thoroughly eclectic or primarily intuitive in terms of the way they inform the practices they term Celtic, are pretty much anathema to us. So yes, the chasm of misunderstanding goes both ways, because in the end it all seems to work for each of us...

Quote
I think CR folks would respond (and have responded) that Celtic Reconstructionism is inherently a modern phenomenon and so obviously it will be influenced and shaped by the knowledge and culture of modern Western society. That's great, as far as it goes, but it's basically another way of saying that they feel comfortable picking and choosing the ways in which they strive to emulate ancient Celtic cultures. That's something we all have to do, in the end, if we want to have any kind of Celtic-inspired spiritual practice today. It's the unspoken, unacknowledged assumptions that underlie the process of picking and choosing that make me uncomfortable.


I agree - we all have to pick and choose. All of us do our picking and choosing in a way that is informed by our beliefs and any defined (or undefined, unconscious) principles that we might have. CR is no different, and from the outside these principles might seem too limiting or pointless. The point for CRs is that while we are a thoroughly modern religion, I think it's fair to say that the principles and methodology we adhere to is our way of staying in touch with the roots of the historical, cultural practices that we are looking to. Whether we succeed is, perhaps, a different matter ;) But since we have such a specific aim it is perhaps inevitable that our approach and even practices might seem to be very restrictive. In my experience that has never been the case (but then I probably would say that...).

Quote
Sorry to go off on such a tangent! I wonder if Seren or any other CR-leaning (or other reconstructionist) people here on TC have any insight into this issue, from the perspective of someone "on the inside"? I'd love to hear their take on it!

--Ali

 
No worries, they were very thought-provoking questions to answer. I hope my answers help!

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Re: Which Celtic Tradition?
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2012, 07:56:15 pm »
Quote from: Seren;37530
What you also seem to be talking about in your post is the view that CR has a very dogmatic approach towards scholarship that stifles practice and experience. That would only be the case, I think, if we didn't have any room to accommodate UPG; but UPG is integral to CR, just like any other religion.

 
Whereas what I've been continually reminded of is the objections Catja has raised to certain tendencies in reconstructionist paganism of all cultural stripes (the first two links are to two of Catja's comments in a thread in the A&H SIG, which also has some excellent comments on the issue from other folks; the third is to the beginning of a thread started specifically to discuss the issue more broadly).  The contentiousness about UPG, I'd say, is just one effect/symptom; what's dogmatic is the tendency to elevate Scholarship-the-platonic-ideal while eliding how scholarship-the-practice actually works.  Even when not accompanied by (or done for the purpose of) religious oneupmanship, it colors the culture of reconstructionist methodology.

(I'll emphasize - in hopes of deflecting the shitstorm that so often follows on any mention of this - that this is not a condemnation, on either my part or Catja's, of reconstructionism, but rather pointing out the methodology's failure mode [everything has a failure mode; identifying it is a necessary prerequisite to avoiding it].  There are many, many individual reconstructionists who don't fall into this tendency, and for whom I have a great deal of respect - you're one of them, Seren.)

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