collapse

* Recent Posts

"Christ Is King" by Altair
[Today at 01:09:34 am]


Re: Cill Shift Schedule by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 11:04:57 pm]


Re: Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 11:21:37 pm]


Re: Spring Has Sprung! 2024 Edition by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 10:24:10 pm]


Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by Altair
[March 21, 2024, 02:52:34 pm]

Author Topic: Hel x Baldr?  (Read 8368 times)

troll maiden

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 200
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Hel x Baldr?
« on: January 29, 2017, 02:31:35 pm »
I was surfing through Tumblr earlier this week and I stumbled some really cute artwork of Baldr and Hel holding hands. I was perplexed, so I read the description. According to the artist, the idea of them as lovers is a relatively modern one.

I remember reading the story of Baldr's death ages ago, it never occured to me that Hel wanted Him to stay because She was smitten.

Intrigued, I kept scrolling and eventually came across a rather wordy post. This one saying the exact opposite; Hel didn't need a guy. In fact, Her going steady with Baldr kinda took away some of Her more empowering elements.

I don't really sit on either side, I think both are equally valid interpretations of the same source material. But I would love to know what you guys think.

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2017, 06:11:51 pm »
Quote from: troll maiden;202039
I kept scrolling and eventually came across a rather wordy post. This one saying the exact opposite; Hel didn't need a guy (...) going steady with Baldr kinda took away some of Her more empowering elements.
Only going by your description (I might read it differently if I'd had access to the content referred to)—I understand becoming bored or frustrated by a lifetime of shoehorned romantic subplots, and feeling as though, oh no, here it is again among people I trusted to shake things up...but, to hold one person's creative expression (that could very well imply that Baldr submitted himself to Hela's dominion!) to the inherent/automatic disempowerment of Hela...I feel shows more how ill-founded the detractor's concept of Hela's sovereignty is.

(Incidentally, have you found any recent threads passionately arguing whether a rock in the sky is best personified as lesbian or asexual for the absolute unanimous best good of all society? Disappointingly ethnocentric, as asexual/aspec lesbians exist, as do lunar deities outside of ancient Greece.)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 06:14:55 pm by Faemon »
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

Tom

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 399
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
    • http://serpentinetom.wordpress.com
Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2017, 07:45:53 pm »
Quote from: troll maiden;202039
I was surfing through Tumblr earlier this week and I stumbled some really cute artwork of Baldr and Hel holding hands. I was perplexed, so I read the description. According to the artist, the idea of them as lovers is a relatively modern one.

I remember reading the story of Baldr's death ages ago, it never occured to me that Hel wanted Him to stay because She was smitten.

Intrigued, I kept scrolling and eventually came across a rather wordy post. This one saying the exact opposite; Hel didn't need a guy. In fact, Her going steady with Baldr kinda took away some of Her more empowering elements.

I don't really sit on either side, I think both are equally valid interpretations of the same source material. But I would love to know what you guys think.

 
I tend to go toward the side of Hel not having any sort of consort because I've never gotten the sense that she actually has any interest romantically in anyone. Baldr stayed there because even gods die and besides, why would she want to return a son of Odin when he was the one who banished her as well as having an awful habit of trespassing on her land and bothering people under her care. The Volva wasn't exactly pleased to be raised from her mound after all.

The only context I've seen Baldr paired off with Hel was also accompanied by someone else's UPG and was used to justify their UPG in a strange way that made me feel very uncomfortable. I don't know if the UPG pairing them together originated somewhere else, but it's really recent as far as I can tell.

troll maiden

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 200
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2017, 06:25:12 am »
Quote from: Faemon;202060
Only going by your description (I might read it differently if I'd had access to the content referred to)—I understand becoming bored or frustrated by a lifetime of shoehorned romantic subplots, and feeling as though, oh no, here it is again among people I trusted to shake things up...but, to hold one person's creative expression (that could very well imply that Baldr submitted himself to Hela's dominion!) to the inherent/automatic disempowerment of Hela...I feel shows more how ill-founded the detractor's concept of Hela's sovereignty is.

(Incidentally, have you found any recent threads passionately arguing whether a rock in the sky is best personified as lesbian or asexual for the absolute unanimous best good of all society? Disappointingly ethnocentric, as asexual/aspec lesbians exist, as do lunar deities outside of ancient Greece.)

 
Oh no no! Those weren't my thoughts, another Tumblr user wrote about it. I just thought she made an interesting counter-point. :)

Nope can't say I have. ^^

troll maiden

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 200
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2017, 06:58:39 am »
Quote from: Tom;202064
I tend to go toward the side of Hel not having any sort of consort because I've never gotten the sense that she actually has any interest romantically in anyone. Baldr stayed there because even gods die and besides, why would she want to return a son of Odin when he was the one who banished her as well as having an awful habit of trespassing on her land and bothering people under her care. The Volva wasn't exactly pleased to be raised from her mound after all.

The only context I've seen Baldr paired off with Hel was also accompanied by someone else's UPG and was used to justify their UPG in a strange way that made me feel very uncomfortable. I don't know if the UPG pairing them together originated somewhere else, but it's really recent as far as I can tell.

That's the kinda vibe I got from her as well. I always took the story at face value, I never really read anything into Hel keeping Baldr there. If anything I saw it as more an act of spite than love. I totally forgot about the Volva, it's been so long since I've read it. But now that you mention it, I remember reading that part thinking 'wow she does not sound happy.'

Apparently they're lovers in the comic book series Valhalla. But I'm not sure if it originated there, or if the comics just popularised it. But I agree that it's definitely a modern thing.

I'm not sure if it'd be something I'd incorporate into my UPG. It just doesn't quite mesh in my head. For me Hel stands as the sole ruler of her domain. But I can the see the appeal of injecting romance into the situation.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 06:59:20 am by troll maiden »

Faemon

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • Posts: 1229
  • Total likes: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2017, 08:09:50 am »
Quote from: troll maiden;202082
Oh no no! Those weren't my thoughts,
I know, I know! Sorry I didn't make it clear I was addressing the detracting poster as you described them, not you directly. :ashamed:
 
Quote from: Tom;202064
someone else's UPG (...) was used to justify their UPG in a strange way that made me feel very uncomfortable. I don't know if the UPG pairing them together originated somewhere else, but it's really recent as far as I can tell.

 
Quote from: troll maiden;202083
Apparently they're lovers in the comic book series Valhalla. But I'm not sure if it originated there, or if the comics just popularised it. But I agree that it's definitely a modern thing.

I'm not sure if it'd be something I'd incorporate into my UPG. It just doesn't quite mesh in my head. For me Hel stands as the sole ruler of her domain. But I can the see the appeal of injecting romance into the situation.

 Heh...I can't. So not my headcanon either :p

Regrettably, then, it seems "Starboard and let ship" doesn't have the same persuasive  impact as "ship and let ship"...

Although I think I remember Aedicula Antinoi's blog (? or someone else's?) having an interesting couple of fanfic chapters/scenes with Hel just dropping by on Hades for no yet discernable reason but to ask interestingly uncomfortable and probably rhetorical questions, and I was kind of like, "...I ship it if it's three sheets to the wind like this!"
The Codex of Poesy: wishcraft, faelatry, alchemy, and other slight misspellings.
the Otherfaith: Chromatic Genderbending Faery Monarchs of Technology. DeviantArt

troll maiden

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 200
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2017, 04:03:19 pm »
Quote from: Faemon;202084
I know, I know! Sorry I didn't make it clear I was addressing the detracting poster as you described them, not you directly. :ashamed:

 
I feel so silly! Sorry if I came across defensive or rude at all. :ashamed:

I've read the full Tumblr post now..and wow. I have no idea where to start. The user's arguments are just all over the place. She believes that Hel is more empowered if she's asexual/demisexual. Then she complains that the because the relationship was in a comic that it's Pop Culture Paganism, and as such has no place in Heathenry. But then proceeds to moan about the comic as if it is mythological canon.

I just..cannot roll my eyes hard enough...
 

Quote from: Faemon;202084
Although I think I remember Aedicula Antinoi's blog (? or someone else's?) having an interesting couple of fanfic chapters/scenes with Hel just dropping by on Hades for no yet discernable reason but to ask interestingly uncomfortable and probably rhetorical questions, and I was kind of like, "...I ship it if it's three sheets to the wind like this!"


If she's as much of a domineering nympho as she is in the comics...all I can say is 'Toot Toot! All aboard the SS Nether Realms!' ;)

Pteranotropi

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 147
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2017, 05:40:01 pm »
Quote from: troll maiden;202039

In my personal opinion, it would go against her character. Indo-european death deities are generally portrayed as infertile and more often than not without a consort, for fairly obvious reasons.

The exception to this is Hades; assuming Baldr is a fertility deity like Persephone, it would make sense if the Hel/Baldr story would be a highly distorted version of some original indo-european myth.

However, Hel doesn't seem connected to the *yemo character Hades is derived off.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 06:28:52 pm by SunflowerP »

troll maiden

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 200
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2017, 06:10:29 am »
Quote from: Pteranotropi;202131
The exception to this is Hades; assuming Baldr is a fertility deity like Persephone, it would make sense if the Hel/Baldr story would be a highly distorted version of some original indo-european myth.

However, Hel doesn't seem connected to the *yemo character Hades is derived off.


I don't really know what Baldr is the god of. But he's often referred to as a god of love, peace and other such nice, fuzzy things. If anything, I think Freyr and Njörðr are closer to Persephone in terms of their function.

You could say that it's two polar opposites being attracted to each other. Which is probably why they're coupled together in the comic.

I don't know what '*yemo' means. ^^;

Pteranotropi

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 147
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2017, 08:34:32 pm »
Quote from: troll maiden;202366
I don't know what '*yemo' means. ^^;

 
The proto-indo-european reconstruction of the god that latter became Hades and Yama

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 9909
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 732
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2017, 08:52:05 pm »
Quote from: Pteranotropi;202396
The proto-indo-european reconstruction of the god that latter became Hades and Yama

 
*Yemo --> Yama (and also to Norse Ymir), I can find, and see the sense in.

Got a source on Hades coming from this root, or are you just going by 'all IE gods of the dead must have come from the same PIE deity'?

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

Tom

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 399
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
    • http://serpentinetom.wordpress.com
Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2017, 11:17:15 am »
Quote from: troll maiden;202130
If she's as much of a domineering nympho as she is in the comics...all I can say is 'Toot Toot! All aboard the SS Nether Realms!' ;)


I might need to stay away from reading Vahalla then because I still remember throwing one of the Everworld books at the way because they characterized her in that way in that series of books too. XD

I'm generally in favor of pop culture influenced Heathenry personally, especially since I know so many people who cite American Gods as highly relevant to how they see Odin and Loki (and the fact that websites on Slavic deities sometimes say there's a third Zorya sister, even if Gaiman has explicitly said he invented her). I just haven't really yet read a version of Hel that really meshes with how I see her personally.

Pteranotropi

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 147
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2017, 04:42:15 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;202397
*Yemo --> Yama (and also to Norse Ymir), I can find, and see the sense in.

Got a source on Hades coming from this root, or are you just going by 'all IE gods of the dead must have come from the same PIE deity'?

Sunflower

 
"Hades" is unrelated etymologically (it's apparently derived from a word for "hidden"), but the similarities to Yama are undeniable.

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3258
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 197
    • View Profile
    • Skyhold
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: they/he
Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2017, 01:59:39 am »
Quote from: Pteranotropi;202447
"Hades" is unrelated etymologically (it's apparently derived from a word for "hidden"), but the similarities to Yama are undeniable.
Can you please expand on that? It's not as obvious to me as it clearly is to you. Thanks!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5219
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1123
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2017, 11:35:35 am »
Quote from: troll maiden;202039
I don't really sit on either side, I think both are equally valid interpretations of the same source material. But I would love to know what you guys think.

 
So here's a thing:  there are an approximate fuckton of interpretations of the Baldr story, both historical and mythological.

I mean, there's the reading under which Loki is an evil bastard out to destroy the beloved Baldr, etc.  Though IIRC there are also versions of the myth in which Loki does not appear at all.

There's the line of study that wonders how much of the story is a post-Christian construction attempting to shoehorn some sort of sacrificial solar/saviour figure into heathenry.

There's the interpretation under which Baldr is a mortal child of Odin, who Odin was trying, Odin-style, to game the rules for, and thus Loki's actions are all about not permitting Odin to rob his daughter of her due.

There's the line of question about whether the woman who refuses to weep is Loki in disguise or not.

To all of this, I would add the "Loki set up perverse matchmaking Romeo and Juliet style because the disapproval of others was keeping Baldr and Hel separated" modern interpretation.  Which has its own mythological-theological consequences that I hope people who run with that story think through.

(There's probably others, including some I'll remember not long after I hit 'post'.  This is just off the top of my head from stuff I've picked up here and there and a couple papers I've read, and since it's not really my field I haven't dug into it deeply.)
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
11 Replies
2825 Views
Last post August 15, 2011, 02:54:35 am
by spoOk
4 Replies
1226 Views
Last post January 15, 2013, 10:16:06 pm
by Fionnbharr
22 Replies
2854 Views
Last post March 25, 2013, 06:46:44 pm
by outlaw393
5 Replies
3613 Views
Last post April 02, 2013, 05:14:28 pm
by hlewagastir
4 Replies
1328 Views
Last post December 26, 2015, 01:57:16 pm
by Moonstone

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 189
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal