What do we know about our pagan anscestors. - page 3 - Paganism For Beginners

Juniperberry

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.

« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2014, 07:19:02 pm »

Quote from: llwynog;150035

I must admit my impression so far is that there is so little that we know that I was afraid to focus it. It is an exciting prospect to me that there is so much available. But anything to help start to understand what they believed in would be appreciated.

Here's an example of focusing on one aspect and building a theory and understanding of the limited material by actual scholars in the field.

Quote

Even though Nordvig can’t prove his theories definitively, he is, in his own words, exactly as certain about them as any researcher in the humanities ever could be. He believes his research makes way for a new understanding of the relationship the Icelandic Vikings had with nature.

“If I’m right that the Norse myths contain concrete evidence of volcanic eruptions we have the opportunity to achieve a deeper understanding of the way the Vikings interpreted natural phenomena,” says Nordvig. “That would be incredibly interesting.”

He cant prove it or *know* it for certain, and not everyone agrees with him, but its what makes sense to him, he can argue his case effectively, and it opens a doorway for him and others to find some other possible meaning in the mythology that resonates with them.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 07:19:36 pm by Juniperberry »

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llwynog

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.

« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2014, 09:42:11 am »

Quote from: Juniperberry;150045

Here's an example of focusing on one aspect and building a theory and understanding of the limited material by actual scholars in the field.

He cant prove it or *know* it for certain, and not everyone agrees with him, but its what makes sense to him, he can argue his case effectively, and it opens a doorway for him and others to find some other possible meaning in the mythology that resonates with them.

Very interesting article; I really liked it. The differences of opinion was also presented well. I found the approach of the issues of working with mythology of the article and how you have two different ways of interpreting it is important to anyone who wants to try to understand any of the beliefs of pre-Christian of western Europe. On the aspect of using metaphoric images to describe natural events it may be that that was what they thought was the only way to communicate the experience of living near a volcano. When I visited Hawaii years ago I went to the lava flow. The volcano was quiet and the lava flows were predictable enough that you could walk right up to the lava and watch it. The heat of the lava was so intense but being so close gave me a sense of amazement and wonder that telling someone what I felt in normal prose could not describe what I felt. Metaphoric explanation could get closer to what I felt. Thanx for the reference I really appreciate it.

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llwynog

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.

« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2014, 03:58:27 pm »

Quote from: Materialist;150043

It's not that straightforward. Research requires time and funding. A lot of websites that offer academic articles require payment, and one article can cost $38.00. The whole journal can be $200.00. I have several note books filled with disorganized data that I don't know what to do with, or how to synthesize if I do. And if dealing with an obscure pagan culture, like North African ones, almost all the information is in French, followed by Spanish, which will require months of translation before I can pass on my notes to Cauldronites. Sometimes I have had to wait for a book to be sent to my library from overseas.

And the problem is, you keep asking about BELIEFS.

No one knows what pagans believed because they never bothered to write a book of creeds.

From snippets of mythology we know that the nature of the gods, afterlife, and souls changed over space and time, and that each community, region, tribe, and individual had completely different opinions on the matter. Some believed Fortuna was a goddess of fate, others a guardian spirit of bath houses. Browsing Indian philosophy, any kind of belief you can possibly imagine on these three subjects has been held at some point in their history. Europe was not much different in its variety.

Your personal values do not have to be a million years old to be valid! Find your own truth, whether it be the Bill of Rights or the Rg Veda!

I did not realized that contributing information was so tied into expense. I guess I was naïve thinking that contributions of what we do know was more widely available than evidently it is. I was hoping that if people would contribute some of he things they know that it would be helpful for anyone else interested. Determining beliefs is of course very difficult to discover without some aspect of oral or written representation. And yet I think we can start to understand it to some qualified degree by first knowing something about the pre-Christian people that can be considered reasonably representative?

Paganism can be defined many ways as in the case in this forum but it also has a history associated with it that dates back to the time of Christian expansion where it referred to the non Christian religions of Europe and Asia minor. Many of the gods and goddesses mentioned in this forum come from this period of time. It is my opinion that if I want to be pagan I would like to try to understand something about the people that named these gods and goddesses.

Obviously other people do not feel this is important and that is fine for them. But for me I think it is important to know whatever I can about Celts who worshiped Danu, Dagda, or Eriu, for example, since they gave us their names. Can we learn anything from what we know to help us understand how they related to their deities. Were they associated with the land or aspects of nature or were they totally independent deities from where they were worshiped and present throughout the earth and the universe? For many what I have said may seem unnecessary, impossible or plain stupid. For me it is important so I have asked for any information about them that someone is willing to share while I reach deeper on my own.

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Aster Breo

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.

« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2014, 05:00:41 pm »

Quote from: llwynog;150217

I did not realized that contributing information was so tied into expense. I guess I was naïve thinking that contributions of what we do know was more widely available than evidently it is. I was hoping that if people would contribute some of he things they know that it would be helpful for anyone else interested.

Many people have. That's what those books I listed and plenty more on the various recommended reading lists are all about.

I think something that is confusing many readers of your threads is why you're asking *us* these questions instead of reading the books that actually contain the info you're looking for. After all, that's where most of us get our academic info. Plus, the info in books is usually presented in context and in a way that makes it much easier to understand and put to use than just getting little bits and pieces randomly from a group of people on a forum.

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.

« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2014, 06:29:45 pm »

Quote from: llwynog;150217

Obviously other people do not feel this is important and that is fine for them.

You have misunderstood. It's not that other people don't consider it important, it's that they are aware that it's a far, far larger and more complex matter than your posts imply.

IMO, it's that, rather than the monetary issues in academia, that are why people are preferring to object to your questions rather than answer them: you keep asking questions that are far too broad, and far too full of misconceptions that would need to be unravelled, to be answered in a forum post; answering them with enough context to support the understanding you want to have takes many many whole books.

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.

« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2014, 07:33:40 pm »

Quote from: SunflowerP;150230

You have misunderstood. It's not that other people don't consider it important, it's that they are aware that it's a far, far larger and more complex matter than your posts imply.

IMO, it's that, rather than the monetary issues in academia, that are why people are preferring to object to your questions rather than answer them: you keep asking questions that are far too broad, and far too full of misconceptions that would need to be unravelled, to be answered in a forum post; answering them with enough context to support the understanding you want to have takes many many whole books.

Sunflower

I would like to dip this post in bronze and mount it on a tastefully carved hardwood wall plaque.

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llwynog

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.

« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2014, 10:24:19 am »

Quote from: Aster Breo;150225

Many people have. That's what those books I listed and plenty more on the various recommended reading lists are all about.

I think something that is confusing many readers of your threads is why you're asking *us* these questions instead of reading the books that actually contain the info you're looking for. After all, that's where most of us get our academic info. Plus, the info in books is usually presented in context and in a way that makes it much easier to understand and put to use than just getting little bits and pieces randomly from a group of people on a forum.

But I am reading the books I am reading Pagan Briton and have the book Old Norse religion in long-term perspectives. I have no problem reading and learning but at the same time I thought other people might share what they have found. Those little bits and pieces may be helpful especially in this area which is so confounded by misinterpretation. And that is another aspect that especially difficult for people starting out. It would be helpful to know what is known vs what is misrepresented.

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llwynog

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.

« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2014, 10:28:40 am »

Quote from: SunflowerP;150230

You have misunderstood. It's not that other people don't consider it important, it's that they are aware that it's a far, far larger and more complex matter than your posts imply.

IMO, it's that, rather than the monetary issues in academia, that are why people are preferring to object to your questions rather than answer them: you keep asking questions that are far too broad, and far too full of misconceptions that would need to be unravelled, to be answered in a forum post; answering them with enough context to support the understanding you want to have takes many many whole books.

Sunflower

Understood, but one person has been willing to give some things they think is supported enough to believe it came from pre-Christian people and another gave a very interesting link to an article about differences in interpretation of the Icelandic stories in reverence to volcanoes. What I find is interesting is that there may be so l little information that we feel comfortable to attribute to the Pre-Christian Europeans. I home there is more and I will continue to read but anyone willing to give something they fell is clearly pre-Christian is very welcome.

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llwynog

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.

« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2014, 10:29:31 am »

Quote from: Allaya;150233

I would like to dip this post in bronze and mount it on a tastefully carved hardwood wall plaque.

Now are you referring to the Bronze age or to your home décor?

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Demeter Hedgewitch

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.

« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2014, 10:31:05 am »

Quote from: llwynog;149920

As I have learned more about Celtic beliefs and not some Germanic beliefs I begin to wonder what we do know. The limitations to what we can say seem to be much more extensive than what I would have thought. Despite that there must be some things we can feel relatively confident on and yet finding those out seems to be more difficult than I would have thought. If anyone is willing to contribute thing they think are consistent with pagan beliefs especially with Celtic and Germanic belief I would appreciate it. It gets confusing as one source suggests something and another refutes it. For me I think it is important to know as much as we can about the beliefs in order to understand the deities so anything that we have some certainty to would be appreciated.

These are two thing that good evidence for as examples to start.

1. From burial mound, and ringed monuments such as Stonehenge indicate the importance of at least the sun and moon in the pre-Christian belief system. It may have had practical uses but connecting it to burial mounds indicates the moon and sun had an important religions aspect.

2. In her book Animals and Humans Recurrent symbiosis in archaeology and Old Norse religion Kristina Jennbert discusses animal burial practices. She goes over the supportive evidence to show that burial with animals and humans together was a common practice which completely stopped after the conversion to Christianity. There was a different relationship to animals in the pre-Christian beliefs. In addition to this she presents evidence that pre-Christian beliefs included combining human properties with the properties of different animal species indicating a symbiosis between human and animal. The evidence in burial rituals, wetland deposits, separate graves for dogs, horses and bears. These and other evidence presented shows a close relationship between animals and humans.

These to things seem to gave sufficient evidence to support them. Does anyone have other things that can be associated with pre-Christian beliefs?

Depends on which part of the world your ancestors were at. Mine, not so much.

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