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Author Topic: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.  (Read 7074 times)

llwynog

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What do we know about our pagan anscestors.
« on: June 12, 2014, 07:08:54 pm »
As I have learned more about Celtic beliefs and not some Germanic beliefs I begin to wonder what we do know. The limitations to what we can say seem to be much more extensive than what I would have thought. Despite that there must be some things we can feel relatively confident on and yet finding those out seems to be more difficult than I would have thought. If anyone is willing to contribute thing they think are consistent with pagan beliefs especially with Celtic and Germanic belief I would appreciate it. It gets confusing as one source suggests something and another refutes it. For me I think it is important to know as much as we can about the beliefs in order to understand the deities so anything that we have some certainty to would be appreciated.

These are two thing that good evidence for as examples to start.

1. From burial mound, and ringed monuments such as Stonehenge indicate the importance of at least the sun and moon in the pre-Christian belief system. It may have had practical uses but connecting it to burial mounds indicates the moon and sun had an important religions aspect.

2. In her book Animals and Humans Recurrent symbiosis in archaeology and Old Norse religion Kristina Jennbert discusses animal burial practices. She goes over the supportive evidence to show that burial with animals and humans together was a common practice which completely stopped after the conversion to Christianity. There was a different relationship to animals in the pre-Christian beliefs. In addition to this she presents evidence that pre-Christian beliefs included combining human properties with the properties of different animal species indicating a symbiosis between human and animal. The evidence in burial rituals, wetland deposits, separate graves for dogs, horses and bears. These and other evidence presented shows a close relationship between animals and humans.

These to things seem to gave sufficient evidence to support them. Does anyone have other things that can be associated with pre-Christian beliefs?

Sarah

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2014, 07:43:00 pm »
Quote from: llwynog;149920
As I have learned more about Celtic beliefs and not some Germanic beliefs I begin to wonder what we do know. The limitations to what we can say seem to be much more extensive than what I would have thought. Despite that there must be some things we can feel relatively confident on and yet finding those out seems to be more difficult than I would have thought. If anyone is willing to contribute thing they think are consistent with pagan beliefs especially with Celtic and Germanic belief I would appreciate it. It gets confusing as one source suggests something and another refutes it. For me I think it is important to know as much as we can about the beliefs in order to understand the deities so anything that we have some certainty to would be appreciated.


These to things seem to gave sufficient evidence to support them. Does anyone have other things that can be associated with pre-Christian beliefs?

 
The thing is that there is no one definitive list or text telling us what people X believed because archaeology and history don't work like that. Even when we do have actual written texts that are passed down its still never definitive what they mean because people interpret things differently and different groups of people throughout history think in different ways.

All we can do is take the evidence that has been left to us and accept that we may have got our conclusions wrong and that there will always be gaps.
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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2014, 08:19:45 pm »
Quote from: llwynog;149920
It gets confusing as one source suggests something and another refutes it.

These are two thing that good evidence for as examples to start.

1. From burial mound, and ringed monuments such as Stonehenge indicate the importance of at least the sun and moon in the pre-Christian belief system. It may have had practical uses but connecting it to burial mounds indicates the moon and sun had an important religions aspect.

2. In her book Animals and Humans Recurrent symbiosis in archaeology and Old Norse religion Kristina Jennbert discusses animal burial practices. She goes over the supportive evidence to show that burial with animals and humans together was a common practice which completely stopped after the conversion to Christianity. There was a different relationship to animals in the pre-Christian beliefs.

 
You might try not treating instances from widely disparate locations and times as if they were representative of a single contiguous 'the' preChristian belief system.

Starting with a preconception like that, and then directing your research towards supporting and describing that preconceived idea, is a recipe for bad scholarship.

There are other assumptions and preconceptions in here, as well, such as the idea that 'belief system' is a useful and accurate descriptor for what you're trying to learn about.

Let go of your preconceptions. They are much heavier baggage than you realize, and you'll get a lot farther without them.

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2014, 09:01:06 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;149929
Let go of your preconceptions. They are much heavier baggage than you realize, and you'll get a lot farther without them.

In addition to what Sunflower said, you might also want to think about what you mean by "religious beliefs".  Do you consider cultural values like hospitality, honor, justice, and courage to be religious beliefs?  Or just things directly connected to deities?
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llwynog

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2014, 09:10:05 am »
Quote from: Jacob;149922
The thing is that there is no one definitive list or text telling us what people X believed because archaeology and history don't work like that. Even when we do have actual written texts that are passed down its still never definitive what they mean because people interpret things differently and different groups of people throughout history think in different ways.

All we can do is take the evidence that has been left to us and accept that we may have got our conclusions wrong and that there will always be gaps.

 
I am very aware of what you have pointed out but what I am asking is for contributions from anyone in the forum for anything that we have at least some reliable evidence. There is no question that great care about conclusions must me taken. That said there must be some things we do know and have at least some reasonable belief that it was associated with pre-Christian beliefs, rituals or behaviors. Do you know of some things that you can reasonably say is likely associated with the pre-Christian people of Western and Northern Europe?

Redfaery

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2014, 09:44:57 am »
Quote from: llwynog;149920
It gets confusing as one source suggests something and another refutes it.

 
Yeah, welcome to academia.
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llwynog

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2014, 09:52:40 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;149929
You might try not treating instances from widely disparate locations and times as if they were representative of a single contiguous 'the' preChristian belief system.

Starting with a preconception like that, and then directing your research towards supporting and describing that preconceived idea, is a recipe for bad scholarship.

There are other assumptions and preconceptions in here, as well, such as the idea that 'belief system' is a useful and accurate descriptor for what you're trying to learn about.

Let go of your preconceptions. They are much heavier baggage than you realize, and you'll get a lot farther without them.

Sunflower

 
I am letting go of my preconception and that is exactly the reason I started this thread. I am not trying to create a unified pre-Christian belief system. I know there were wide variations but there was also much overlap also. What am asking as a starting point is what do we really know about this diverse group and if possible to identify it in both a time frame and.

  There is so much misconception about what we can attribute to the pre-Christian people that it would be nice to see what we do know. Any contribution can be qualified as to who it belongs to with warnings to be careful not to generalize it. I feel this is important for someone like me to see what do know that is reasonably accurate.  Knowing what we do know will hopefully help me or anyone else to first break down our preconceptions and start again with things that are at least reasonable.

 It would also be interesting to identify the time frame for these beliefs and regional differences if known. One of the biggest problem I have had is to distinguish what has some reasonable evidence from what has been said which is not reasonable. For example, and correct me if I am wrong, there was an Archeologist/Egyptologist by the name of Margaret Murray who proposed a secret "underground" thriving pagan community who was persecuted as witches. From what I know so far that is completely incorrect and was a misinterpretation of the information recorded in the witch trials and yet it continues to be believed by people who do not know it was incorrect.

I think especially for people just starting to consider paganism beginning with information which is at least reasonable can help me or others starting to not get sucked into the misinformation that is so prevalent in so many popular books on paganism. I hope others in the forum will be will to contribute some things and point out thing that are not correct.  I sincerely believe this could be helpful.

Sarah

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2014, 09:57:02 am »
Quote from: llwynog;149968
I am very aware of what you have pointed out but what I am asking is for contributions from anyone in the forum for anything that we have at least some reliable evidence. There is no question that great care about conclusions must me taken. That said there must be some things we do know and have at least some reasonable belief that it was associated with pre-Christian beliefs, rituals or behaviors. Do you know of some things that you can reasonably say is likely associated with the pre-Christian people of Western and Northern Europe?

 
why do you think the answers to this thread are going to be much different from your last thread when you are pretty much asking the same question?
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llwynog

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2014, 10:02:27 am »
Quote from: Jacob;149973
why do you think the answers to this thread are going to be much different from your last thread when you are pretty much asking the same question?

 
Yes I do because I  am hoping that people will contribute specific things that could help in better understanding what we do know.

Redfaery

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2014, 10:36:34 am »
Quote from: llwynog;149974
Yes I do because I  am hoping that people will contribute specific things that could help in better understanding what we do know.


Well, I hate to say it, but I don't think people here (or anywhere) will just hand you that kind of information. It's not because it's super-secret, or because we're mean or anything. It's because its hard to do all the research, and having someone come in and ask for the answers is - to me - kind of like if my classmate just wants me to hand over all the sources I've used for a paper we've been assigned, when she hasn't even done any work looking herself.

I get that you're confused by the sources. Scholarly writing is often dry and boring to non-scholars. None of it is meant to be a beach read. And yes, there's not always consensus. It sounds like there's precious little consensus in the field you're looking at. But guess what? There's never 100% consensus in ANY field about everything. Scholars come up with ideas based on our interpretation of the evidence. That's our job.

(Well..."our" job. I mean, I've only got a Bachelor's. Maybe I should hold off the "we" stuff until I've got the Master's, too?)

Seriously. Scholars argue. It's the whole point of scholarship, in my opinion. If there's no argument, no one's thinking.

So....I know I've kind of gotten off track here.:o But I'm a scholar. Or a scholar in training. It's actually a big part of my spirituality. And I can tell you, scholarship is hard work. Research is hard work. So please, when you post a thread like this, and ask if anyone can just magically hand you the information you want, don't be surprised when nobody does. It's hard enough to come up with that information for oneself.
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Juniperberry

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2014, 11:15:15 am »
Quote from: llwynog;149974
Yes I do because I  am hoping that people will contribute specific things that could help in better understanding what we do know.

 
I think you might find it easier to focus on one aspect of the chosen belief system, like the afterlife or women's roles, whatever interests you the most. That way you can stay grounded in the central focus but also see how everything begins to inform everything else, and eventually a larger, more cohesive picture will form. (And your area of interest can always change, too.)

Is there anything you're specifically interested in that you could settle on?
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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2014, 11:16:35 am »
Quote from: llwynog;149974
Yes I do because I  am hoping that people will contribute specific things that could help in better understanding what we do know.

 
There were people.  They did people-things.  Sometimes they got along.  Sometimes they didn't.  They ate, they slept, they got drunk, they made babies, they died.  They made stuff.

After that you're in conjecture-land.

Rhaethe

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2014, 12:24:47 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;149979
There were people.  They did people-things.  Sometimes they got along.  Sometimes they didn't.  They ate, they slept, they got drunk, they made babies, they died.  They made stuff.

After that you're in conjecture-land.

And it is because of the quoted bit above that folks see what the OP calls overlap.  Ultimately, our ancestors of widely varying cultures are still ... people.  

Even if cultures evolved in vacuum (which I don't believe all did, but still) some certain things and occurrences will engender a similar response out of people.  Fire, water, storms, death, birth etc.  There is overlap concerning these things not, in my opinion, because ancient peoples shared customs ... or not solely because of that.  But, rather, because we are all people, doing people things and behaving in a people way.  

Making offerings at bodies of water is a pretty logical thing to do.   Water is needed for life.  Bodies of water can provide food.  You need to live near a body of water, or have reasonable access to it, otherwise you die.  It becomes a special place.  You have to have it, and you will defend it.  Makes sense to me to make offerings to it or at it, depending on one's religion.  Same with fire.

Certainly, differing cultures' customs will develop in different ways.  But yes, at the base there is a lot of similarity (e.g. "making offerings at water") because we are, at core ... people doing people things.  The differences are not "whether or not X culture has customs of water offerings", but rather, the very specific ways and details of how the offerings are made.  

And it is those details that you can only conjecture about a culture that didn't find it necessary (or couldn't) write things down themselves.  At very best, you are restricted to making educated guesses based upon the educated guesses of some outsider(s) who observed things and wrote them down a long time ago.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 12:25:23 pm by Rhaethe »

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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2014, 01:03:29 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;149979
There were people.


But how do we know they weren't...
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Re: What do we know about our pagan anscestors.
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2014, 01:10:22 pm »
Quote from: Jack;149990
But how do we know they weren't...

 
*begins checking Jack for signs that he's a shapeshifting reptile*


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