Author Topic: Justice (Read 6458 times)

Selenography · « **on:** June 10, 2014, 08:48:16 pm »

I have been through several situations where I was majorly violated. I went to the appropriate authorities in every case, answered questions, did everything "right." Yet, none of those who were responsible for my suffering ever had to face any real consequences. Sure, they got questioned by police or their boss or a civil rights council, but they didn't have to pay money or do jail time or even sit trial or anything.

Going through all of this, I've been forced to think a lot about justice. I am still angry that I was denied justice, but I am not even sure what I think justice is or if I think it's even a real concept and not just an heuristic.

Let me explain what I mean by that. I decided long ago that it would be helpful to stop believing in "fairness." (Not knocking it for those who do.) To me, it seemed that if we cling to concepts of what is fair, then all that usually does is mean that we impose our value systems onto other people's actions. I still think it's a useful shorthand when trying to call someone out on inappropriate behavior. But I try not to get wrapped up in concepts of fairness when I think about not only my own life but about all the atrocities in the world.

Yesterday in therapy I told my therapist that my belief in fairness and justice was very wounded, then explained that I didn't believe in fairness. My therapist said, "Why would you believe in justice, then?" I didn't have a good answer.

I am not sure if I am leading up to a pointed question here, but I wanted to raise these subjects. To throw a few questions out there, how does your concept of justice differ because you are Pagan than it would otherwise? Do you think justice is a narcissistic human construction, or does it have deeper roots? How do you hold on to justice when you see so much injustice? Or do you give it up?

RandallS · « **Reply #1 on:** June 11, 2014, 07:52:42 am »

Quote from: Selenography;149788

To throw a few questions out there, how does your concept of justice differ because you are Pagan than it would otherwise? Do you think justice is a narcissistic human construction, or does it have deeper roots? How do you hold on to justice when you see so much injustice? Or do you give it up?

My concept of justice (and my ethics in general, for that matter) is not really strongly influenced by my religion. I had both a set of ethics and a firm conception of justice before I became any type of Pagan. In fact, it's more likely my concepts there influenced my choice of religion more than my choice of religion influenced them. Justice, like fairness, is most likely a human construction -- probably even a cultural construction as views on what is just and what is fair seem to vary somewhat by culture. However, most seem to share a common core even if some of the specifics are very different.

Redfaery · « **Reply #2 on:** June 11, 2014, 01:40:18 pm »

Quote from: Selenography;149788

I have been through several situations where I was majorly violated. I went to the appropriate authorities in every case, answered questions, did everything "right." Yet, none of those who were responsible for my suffering ever had to face any real consequences. Sure, they got questioned by police or their boss or a civil rights council, but they didn't have to pay money or do jail time or even sit trial or anything.

Going through all of this, I've been forced to think a lot about justice. I am still angry that I was denied justice, but I am not even sure what I think justice is or if I think it's even a real concept and not just an heuristic.

Let me explain what I mean by that. I decided long ago that it would be helpful to stop believing in "fairness." (Not knocking it for those who do.) To me, it seemed that if we cling to concepts of what is fair, then all that usually does is mean that we impose our value systems onto other people's actions. I still think it's a useful shorthand when trying to call someone out on inappropriate behavior. But I try not to get wrapped up in concepts of fairness when I think about not only my own life but about all the atrocities in the world.

Yesterday in therapy I told my therapist that my belief in fairness and justice was very wounded, then explained that I didn't believe in fairness. My therapist said, "Why would you believe in justice, then?" I didn't have a good answer.

I am not sure if I am leading up to a pointed question here, but I wanted to raise these subjects. To throw a few questions out there, how does your concept of justice differ because you are Pagan than it would otherwise? Do you think justice is a narcissistic human construction, or does it have deeper roots? How do you hold on to justice when you see so much injustice? Or do you give it up?

My dad is a criminal defense attorney. The system screws over anyone who isn't white and rich, no matter what side of the courtroom you're on. So yeah, I can understand why you don't believe that fairness exists. But that doesn't mean it's not an ideal people shouldn't strive for. Just because someone cheated me over doesn't mean I get to go out and do the same to someone else. Would that be fair? Not to the person getting cheated. More to the point, it wouldn't be right. And that's where justice comes in. Just because the justice system in the United Statesis broken doesn't mean that we should give up on the concept of Justice altogether. Frankly, looking at Justice and Fairness in that manner is what seems narcissistic to me.

Juniperberry · « **Reply #3 on:** June 11, 2014, 05:03:12 pm »

Quote from: Selenography;149788

I am not sure if I am leading up to a pointed question here, but I wanted to raise these subjects. To throw a few questions out there, how does your concept of justice differ because you are Pagan than it would otherwise? Do you think justice is a narcissistic human construction, or does it have deeper roots? How do you hold on to justice when you see so much injustice? Or do you give it up?

I kind of agree with your ideas of fairness and what we impose on others. After a shit year I finally stopped asking (in so many words) for others to get what they deserve and started asking to get what *I* deserve.

It was scary as shit to request that.

But honestly, I needed justice and order and meaning in the world again, and that had to come through me. Because I'll never be able to weigh what someone else deserves. But I can see the fairness when I turn that lens inward.

Lysana · « **Reply #4 on:** June 11, 2014, 05:10:10 pm »

Quote from: Selenography;149788

I have been through several situations where I was majorly violated. I went to the appropriate authorities in every case, answered questions, did everything "right." Yet, none of those who were responsible for my suffering ever had to face any real consequences. Sure, they got questioned by police or their boss or a civil rights council, but they didn't have to pay money or do jail time or even sit trial or anything.

Going through all of this, I've been forced to think a lot about justice. I am still angry that I was denied justice, but I am not even sure what I think justice is or if I think it's even a real concept and not just an heuristic.

Let me explain what I mean by that. I decided long ago that it would be helpful to stop believing in "fairness." (Not knocking it for those who do.) To me, it seemed that if we cling to concepts of what is fair, then all that usually does is mean that we impose our value systems onto other people's actions. I still think it's a useful shorthand when trying to call someone out on inappropriate behavior. But I try not to get wrapped up in concepts of fairness when I think about not only my own life but about all the atrocities in the world.

Yesterday in therapy I told my therapist that my belief in fairness and justice was very wounded, then explained that I didn't believe in fairness. My therapist said, "Why would you believe in justice, then?" I didn't have a good answer.

I am not sure if I am leading up to a pointed question here, but I wanted to raise these subjects. To throw a few questions out there, how does your concept of justice differ because you are Pagan than it would otherwise? Do you think justice is a narcissistic human construction, or does it have deeper roots? How do you hold on to justice when you see so much injustice? Or do you give it up?

I'd add to prior remarks made by others that the US court system is a system of law, not justice. And it's within the law for people to get screwed over like you did because of loopholes and human behaviors. And I'm very sorry to hear that happened to you.

My concept of justice didn't change due to my paganism. I think it changed due to my politics. And my politics are not in line with those of my ancestors or the mainstream American society (though the mainstream talks a fair game of what I would prefer to see in the world). I hold on because, to paraphrase Martin Luther King Jr., the course of history bends toward justice. It's better now than it has been and will be better in the generations to come even if we suffer setbacks. Changes in how the US legal system handles those who aren't rich and white would by necessity be part of that positive change.

Is justice a narcissistic concept? In execution, yes, but we're all prone to get heavily into "what about me" loops from time to time and I'm no exception. I think there's a pure concept of justice that stands up apart from us humans who can't seem to stop mucking with a good thing. That's what history bends toward because people don't give up on it. This is all said granting I can be a very staunch optimist when I want to be. But that's what helps me keep going in the face of injustice.

Ai · « **Reply #5 on:** June 12, 2014, 12:32:28 am »

Quote from: RandallS;149811

My concept of justice (and my ethics in general, for that matter) is not really strongly influenced by my religion. I had both a set of ethics and a firm conception of justice before I became any type of Pagan. In fact, it's more likely my concepts there influenced my choice of religion more than my choice of religion influenced them. Justice, like fairness, is most likely a human construction -- probably even a cultural construction as views on what is just and what is fair seem to vary somewhat by culture. However, most seem to share a common core even if some of the specifics are very different.

^ This is how I feel about it, too. For me, my perceptions of social concepts led to my religious choice.
I feel like justice is sort of a cultural compromise; it keeps people from destroying society in their vengeance. It helps to keep order. If the Majority is satisfied with the terms of justice, then things carry on more smoothly. The downside is that minorities fall through the cracks. This has been one of the major arguments against Democracy. As you said, while "most" are happy with the compromise, a huge chunk of the population has those terms forced on them.

MadZealot · « **Reply #6 on:** June 12, 2014, 05:12:50 am »

Quote from: RandallS;149811

My concept of justice (and my ethics in general, for that matter) is not really strongly influenced by my religion. I had both a set of ethics and a firm conception of justice before I became any type of Pagan. In fact, it's more likely my concepts there influenced my choice of religion more than my choice of religion influenced them.

^^ This is me, too. My religion is, more or less, in a constant state of flux (and I like it that way) but my ideas concerning justice and ethics have remained constant, save one notable exception: my relatively new opposition to capital punishment, because I generally object, on theological grounds, to the taking of human life. I don't really chalk that up to a change in doctrine, as it were; it's more of a personal evolving, as I work through issues with my brain.
I can't really say, though, that my ethics influenced my choice of religion per se, but maybe they affect how I approach my religion. If that makes sense.

Quote

Justice, like fairness, is most likely a human construction -- probably even a cultural construction as views on what is just and what is fair seem to vary somewhat by culture. However, most seem to share a common core even if some of the specifics are very different.

Generally agree, though lately I've been pondering what exactly 'justice' means-- what it is. Back to executions for a second... when we put a criminal to death, even if he 'deserves it,' is it justice we're after, or is it vengeance? And what is the difference? I don't think there is a clear answer, which to me suggest maybe we ought not to do it; and of course the minute we put down an innocent, we can't rightly claim to have justice at all.

HeartShadow · « **Reply #7 on:** June 14, 2014, 11:18:35 pm »

Quote from: Selenography;149788

Justice is an ephemeral. Like love, or truth, or beauty.

We know it when we see it, but we cannot command it, cannot draw it, cannot hold it. It is a goal. It is a dream.

Is it real? ... is love real? is truth real? We MAKE it real. It exists because we make it, not because it floats about in some kind of perfect ideal. It is a goal we strive for.

Is it real? .... hopefully.

veggiewolf · « **Reply #8 on:** June 17, 2014, 10:05:19 am »

Quote from: Selenography;149788

...To throw a few questions out there, how does your concept of justice differ because you are Pagan than it would otherwise?

My concept of justice hasn't changed because I am pagan, but it may be part of what moved me toward becoming pagan (if you appreciate the distinction).

Quote

Do you think justice is a narcissistic human construction, or does it have deeper roots?

Justice is necessary to uphold ma'at (Divine Order) and as such has deeper roots. Anything that promotes ma'at is (to me) just; anything that attempts to unravel ma'at is unjust. This trips some people up - they look at justice as a moral or ethical concept and, in doing so, make things messy.

Quote

How do you hold on to justice when you see so much injustice? Or do you give it up?

I hold onto it because the outcome without it is just not acceptable.

ArcadiaExeter · « **Reply #9 on:** July 03, 2014, 11:20:06 pm »

Quote from: Selenography;149788

how does your concept of justice differ because you are Pagan than it would otherwise? Do you think justice is a narcissistic human construction, or does it have deeper roots? How do you hold on to justice when you see so much injustice? Or do you give it up?

My beliefs do not impact my view on justice but i have always see justice as just a way humans moralize revenge. Killing someone = wrong. Killing someone because they killed someone = justice. I really think its BS.

as humans we have an built in need for vengeance. I'm not sure where it comes from other than we have anger and that is how we express it. the truth is revenge never makes the unwanted emotions go away.

I also think the idea of justice was a way of coping with the reality that sometimes people we love do bad things. If you're a loved one of someone who did something wrong and they go to jail or get killed because of it, it may help you cope with the loss because you can atleast tell yourself that what happened to them was "just".

again i think the whole idea of justice is just a coping mechanism humans use, and hopefully as we evolve as a culture it will no longer be necessary. Whether thats because we learn to deal with hardships without the need for vengeance or because bad things just stop happening. I kind of doubt the latter.

ArcadiaExeter · « **Reply #10 on:** July 04, 2014, 01:58:13 pm »

Quote from: ArcadiaExeter;152189

My beliefs do not impact my view on justice but i have always see justice as just a way humans moralize revenge.

After doing some more thinking about it, I changed my mind slightly. there are certain circumstances where justice wouldnt just be revenge. For example if someone gets robbed and the thief is arrested and the people get there stuff back then i would count that as justice, but it is a fine line because as soon as the people who got there stuff back start concentrating on the thief's punishment then it becomes revenge.

also i couldn't find a way to edit posts so that why i made this one.

Valentine · « **Reply #11 on:** July 04, 2014, 06:24:58 pm »

Quote from: ArcadiaExeter;152224

After doing some more thinking about it, I changed my mind slightly. there are certain circumstances where justice wouldnt just be revenge. For example if someone gets robbed and the thief is arrested and the people get there stuff back then i would count that as justice, but it is a fine line because as soon as the people who got there stuff back start concentrating on the thief's punishment then it becomes revenge.

also i couldn't find a way to edit posts so that why i made this one.

It's a forum policy that we don't edit posts in order to preserve the conversation--if people respond to a post, and then that post is edited, it can muddy what people were responding to--so we just make new posts. There's a few-minute window after posting where you can edit little things like typos, and then the posts sort of set.

It takes a little getting used to if you're someone like me who always wants to go back and second-guess what you've just said, but it makes for better board culture, I think. Instead of acting like one thought cancels out another, we just add more thoughts.

Pix · « **Reply #12 on:** July 12, 2014, 03:19:07 am »

Simple answer: I have what I believe is a pragmatic view of "justice" which is enough balance and general faith (or at least not worse than grumbling discontent) in which my ideal is "equality under the law" (that is everyone has the same rights under the law, or a good reason reason involving lack of accountability such as children or the insane who are then also not "tried as adults" as the system says they can't make adult decisions anyway and if they could then they should have the rights of a sane adult), and it's focus should be on public safety and reform over punishment.

And religion has nothing to do with it for me and I'll add that "moral laws" (from buying alcohol on Sunday to say making a woman wear a veil or persecuting someone because it's a "religious belief") shouldn't be allowed, only laws in regard to public safety and security, and certainly not "religious exemption" laws that allow actions that would otherwise be a felony as exist in the US.

I'd say more (particularly in giving examples), but I'm new and I don't wish to generate controversy so soon, especially as what I think should happen simply isn't anyway.

I will say I've seen a lot of injustice, and as a child I came to see the courts as my enemy (while I no longer believe that now I still hold a cynical view that doesn't see them as a friend, especially not to kids, but they can be gamed--one reason why the innocent tend not to fare well in them as the guilty tend to have a far more accurate view of the courts and how to deal with them). I've seen how the so-called justice system actually creates crime that would not otherwise exist and make society more dangerous rather than safer.

And I was just sharing earlier today about a really nasty preacher who embezzled (and thus destroyed) a food bank for his own purposes and/or greed and when we thought about hiring a PI it was well out of our price range and would be unlikely to help us (best case scenerio is he'd be convicted but that wouldn't undo the damage while we were a lot poorer, and even that conviction was unlikely to happen at all or mean anything even if solid evidence was provided). Now if we'd been an insurance company or someone else who stood to lose a fortune unless we paid those fees (and the lawyers after) then it would've been great, but we didn't have that kind of money to play with and we considered it extremely unlikely that we'd get any of it back (at least in time to do any good).

That said I've learned a long time ago to let go of things that are beyond my control and it has done me a lot of good.

Pix · « **Reply #13 on:** July 12, 2014, 03:32:25 am »

^^

The above was a reply to the original post.

Quote from: Selenography;149788

none of those who were responsible for my suffering ever had to face any real consequences. Sure, they got questioned by police or their boss or a civil rights council, but they didn't have to pay money or do jail time or even sit trial or anything.

And the last time I visited my dad amuses me. After Mom won his beloved car (either mustang or camaro, but whatever it was it impressed car enthusiasts) and admittedly Mom did it just to be mean (in addition to other dirty tricks, many of them suggested by her lawyer to try to intentionally enrage him and get him to hurt his position in the legal proceedings--and nearly got Mom killed more than once for it, too), but after she got it she was driving down the highway with me beside her when the brakes pretty much stopped working. (Dad was an expert in working on that car, and my understanding was that whatever happened wasn't an accident and he was the ONLY suspect...though at the same time no one other than Mom seemed to care and wouldn't surprise me if some thought "good for him" for getting his ex-wife back.)

I was 13 and and out of it for other reasons so I don't recall it vividly and I suppose that's why I didn't panic as she did but she pretty much had swerve wildly and keep driving and swerving to not crash, and she succeeded, and I recall her saying something later about the brake pad being intentionally damaged. Mom made a fuss about it but the cops didn't look interested (they never enforced the restraining order unless the neighbors also called the cops so no surprise there) and Dad says the police didn't even question him about it (though his mother did say something about his being questioned so I don't know for sure).

So fast forward to shortly before I turned 22 (and hadn't seen Dad since I was 14) me and a friend were friendly enough, and I asked him about that out of sheer curiosity (and described the experience of being in the car) and said I know Mom really pushed him but it upset him (he tried to hide it and I think he hadn't even thought of it in a long while, but this was when he said the police never even asked him about it).

Trying to make him feel better I tried to think of something we had in common that we could bond over and then it occurred to me since he had guns and I'd learned to shoot I asked him if he'd like to go plinking or even to a shooting range (one with guns to try so we could show each other our favorites), and there was a brief look of panic on his face (to be fair Mom did try to shoot him with a shotgun once) and it got awkward enough that we had to leave soon after. My friend with me said bringing up going shooting together almost immediately after reminding him of how he about killed me when I was a kid was not the best idea, but I swear that was innocent on my part.

:

But I've forgiven him for the past, and Mom. I don't trust either of them but it's water under the bridge for me and I even feel some cautious compassion for them both even with the realization they feel almost nothing for me.

MattyG · « **Reply #14 on:** July 19, 2014, 01:12:17 pm »

Quote from: Selenography;149788

I am not sure if I am leading up to a pointed question here, but I wanted to raise these subjects. To throw a few questions out there, how does your concept of justice differ because you are Pagan than it would otherwise? Do you think justice is a narcissistic human construction, or does it have deeper roots? How do you hold on to justice when you see so much injustice? Or do you give it up?

Nature is amoral. Not immoral, but amoral. The hurricane doesn't care if people deserve to have their homes destroyed. The lion doesn't care if the gazelle deserves to be eaten. The stars don't pick which planets burn or freeze based off of what they deserve. The concepts of deserving or good or evil simply have no objective basis in nature. There is a quote from Death in one of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books that I really like. Speaking to his apprentice about the fairness of certain people having to die, he says "There is no justice. Just us."

That said, that's not to say that justice doesn't exist. It may not have an objective basis, but I believe that subjective truths can be just as real as objective truths (I'm not sure if my religion makes me believe that, or believing that caused me to choose my religion. I don't remember which came first

). Humans, as a species of social animals, need to make rules to govern our interactions with each other. I imagine that if we were ants, or wolves, or snakes, or some other species, the rules that are most just would be quite different. I even believe that, to some extent, the rules about justice change based off of the circumstances that a group lives in. For example, I believe that the death penalty is unjust today, but if we were a hunter-gatherer society that couldn't afford to keep a criminal imprisoned and rehabilitate them, it might be an unfortunate necessity.

Ultimately, I consider myself a Utilitarian. The only objective measure of justice is whether or not a rule produces the greatest amount of happiness for society. This may vary from one society to the next, but I suspect that we all have certain basic standards that are universal throughout the human species.

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Selenography

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Ai

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