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Author Topic: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.  (Read 10309 times)

llwynog

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Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« on: May 27, 2014, 11:50:14 am »
I entered this forum to find help with understanding what my pre-Christian ancestors believed in. I was already aware that the answer was not going to be easy and I what I have found so far suggests that is an understatement. The problem that I have learned so far in this forum is how we view religions from the past. Please correct me but it seems that religious beliefs in the past were blends of beliefs. Shortly after the conversion of Western Europe to Christianity we have people who call themselves Christian but whose belief system is a blend if the pre-Christian religion with the adopted Christian religion. This may be less so in the educated circles but in the less educated who did not no Latin or had no access to a priest for education, their belief retained pre-Christian rituals adapted to the new Christian elements. How have other people trying to understand their pre-Christian ancestry approach this problem?

Juni

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2014, 06:18:44 pm »
Quote from: llwynog;148650
How have other people trying to understand their pre-Christian ancestry approach this problem?

 
I don't try to understand my pre-Christian ancestors' beliefs because I don't have a damned clue what they were. I know the general areas where my pre-American ancestors resided, but that was well into the Christian era, and people can move significant distances in one lifetime, much less over generations. I have no way of knowing what belief systems my ancestors may have been exposed to or participated in.

I think the question you're really asking, based on your posts in other threads, is how to figure out what the pre-Christian Celts believed, how to take texts recorded during the Christian era and sift out the Christian influence to distill some sort of pure Celtic belief. We can't. We can make educated guesses based on Roman and Christian sources, the archaeological record, but they're still educated guesses. And even if some lost, straight from the horse's mouth record were to appear- which is unlikely, given that the Celts were not much for records- it would still only represent a moment in time, from a single or small pool of perspectives. The Celts were a diverse bunch, and no belief system remains stagnant.
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Materialist

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2014, 12:06:23 pm »
Quote from: Juni;148675

I think the question you're really asking, based on your posts in other threads, is how to figure out what the pre-Christian Celts believed, how to take texts recorded during the Christian era and sift out the Christian influence to distill some sort of pure Celtic belief.


Expanding on this for llwynog's sake, with my 2 cents worth of researching pagan remains to reconstruct rituals: Pagan religions were not orthodox. People could believe whatever they wanted so long as they performed rituals correctly.

Another thing to understand is that pagan Europe had a tribal-based social organization. Each tribe had its own gods and rituals that went along with them. The anglicized demonym Neo-pagans keep using, "Celts," only actually applies to either the Celtici or Keltoi tribes from Portugal, France and Germany.

The existence of "Celtic Religion," "Celtic Culture" or anything else "Celtic" is a modern invention, and the archaeologist Simon James once described the concept of "The Celts" as completely "bogus." (Saxons, Vikings and Celts, Bryan Sykes, p.48, W. W. Norton & Company, 2006)

 Using the adjective "Celtic" falsely dichotomizes what were once cultural continuums throughout ancient Europe. A more accurate paradigm to think with is the "Religions of Northern Europe." What is best to do, is focus on a county/department/canton-however the country you're looking at divides itself-and look at the archaeological remains there and in surrounding areas to see if anything of the long lost tribe can be reconstructed from them.

For the debate about whether threads of paganism survive in Christianity and modern folklore, having studied the first millennium of Christianity in the British Isles and read some books of folktales, I would have to say no, Christianizing earlier religions did not happen. And I suggest to respect your ancestors' decision in converting to Christianity, or sticking to the faith if born into it, and not try to paganize Christian rituals and the folklore of Christian peoples.

Reconstruct the rituals that have left some remains, and believe whatever you want/need to about what they're for, and why you're doing it.

llwynog

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2014, 03:15:27 pm »
Quote from: Juni;148675

I think the question you're really asking, based on your posts in other threads, is how to figure out what the pre-Christian Celts believed, how to take texts recorded during the Christian era and sift out the Christian influence to distill some sort of pure Celtic belief. We can't. We can make educated guesses based on Roman and Christian sources, the archaeological record, but they're still educated guesses. And even if some lost, straight from the horse's mouth record were to appear- which is unlikely, given that the Celts were not much for records- it would still only represent a moment in time, from a single or small pool of perspectives. The Celts were a diverse bunch, and no belief system remains stagnant.

 
First of all I am not looking for pure pagan Celtic belief which does not exist. I am interested in what my ancestors did believe in to the best that can be determined.  Now this is my perspective but for me but how can I want to believe in  Morríghan, Epona, Rhiannon or Cernunnos without knowing something about the beliefs surrounding these gods/goddesses. How can you isolate out the name with some nebulous list of characteristics without having some understanding about how the people who believed in that god or goddess perceived their spiritual world. Yes we will never have a complete understanding but some understanding seems indicated. From my perspective at this point the answer lies in learning from as many different aspect as I can - mythology, archeology, folklore, ancient writings, art, and comparative anthropology. While any one may have many faults, consistencies between different media increase the validity.

llwynog

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2014, 03:59:19 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;148709
.

For the debate about whether threads of paganism survive in Christianity and modern folklore, having studied the first millennium of Christianity in the British Isles and read some books of folktales, I would have to say no, Christianizing earlier religions did not happen. And I suggest to respect your ancestors' decision in converting to Christianity, or sticking to the faith if born into it, and not try to paganize Christian rituals and the folklore of Christian peoples.

Reconstruct the rituals that have left some remains, and believe whatever you want/need to about what they're for, and why you're doing it.

 
I have never meant disrespect to my anscestor's nor am I trying to deny their faith. My point is in the nature of the religion that developed. The way I understand what I know so far(and I am willing to change that opinion if convinced) is that concepts of Christianity were merged with the rituals of paganism. If those people called themselves Christian I have no problem with that but the way they practiced from what I have read does not match the Jewish traditions and what we know about Christ's teachings. The land in the British Isles and Ireland continued to have sacred places. Whether they renaimed it as a saint spring, saint tree, or saint mound with a new church placed on top of the previous sacred site, the land continued to be the connection to the gods/goddesses now symbolized by Christ, Mary and saints. What I believe for someone wanting to understand pagan past is the importance placed on the land/water/trees itself. The Christ/jewish tradition placed a temple as the center for worship and not in a grove, mound, spring or lake.

Megatherium

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2014, 04:36:55 pm »
Quote from: Juni;148675
I don't try to understand my pre-Christian ancestors' beliefs because I don't have a damned clue what they were. I know the general areas where my pre-American ancestors resided, but that was well into the Christian era, and people can move significant distances in one lifetime, much less over generations. I have no way of knowing what belief systems my ancestors may have been exposed to or participated in.


I think that you make some good points here, but the paragraph has been worded a bit too strongly. I specifically disagree with the assertion that we have “no way of knowing” what types of beliefs our ancestors participated in. While it may be true that people “can move significant distances in one lifetime”, agricultural peoples in the pre-modern era generally did not move around a whole lot.

But the ultimate crux of the matter is the sheer number of direct ancestors we all have from the period of conversion to the present day.  (Millions!) It’s quite reasonable to say that if your pre-american ancestors were Irish that it does not mean you are 100% Irish all the way back to the post-glacial human occupation of the island. However, at the same time, I don’t think there is any coherent reason why a person whose pre-american ancestors came from Ireland would have absolutely no pagan Irish ancestors at all.
 
Quote from: llwynog;148719
Yes we will never have a complete understanding but some understanding seems indicated. From my perspective at this point the answer lies in learning from as many different aspect as I can - mythology, archeology, folklore, ancient writings, art, and comparative anthropology. While any one may have many faults, consistencies between different media increase the validity.

 
I agree. Given the lack of material, we will never be able to fully understand the “True Pagan Religions of the Irish”! and anything we do discover will have to be adapted to our modern circumstances.

But that doesn’t mean that we can’t use what we are able to learn about our ancestors traditions from forming the basis of a fully functional religious practice for the present day.
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Darkhawk

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2014, 05:01:36 pm »
Quote from: Megatherium;148817
I think that you make some good points here, but the paragraph has been worded a bit too strongly. I specifically disagree with the assertion that we have “no way of knowing” what types of beliefs our ancestors participated in. While it may be true that people “can move significant distances in one lifetime”, agricultural peoples in the pre-modern era generally did not move around a whole lot.

 
Doesn't really matter whether or not they moved around: belief does not fossilise.  One can find evidence for practice and guess about belief, one can find occasional people who write belief down (usually an educated elite and thus a tiny minority of a culture), but one cannot find the actual beliefs with any certainty.
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Materialist

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2014, 05:16:52 pm »
Quote from: llwynog;148723
The way I understand what I know so far is that concepts of Christianity were merged with the rituals of paganism.  The way they practiced  does not match the Jewish traditions and what we know about Christ's teachings. The land in the British Isles and Ireland continued to have sacred places. Whether they renaimed it as a saint spring, saint tree, or saint mound with a new church placed on top of the previous sacred site, the land continued to be the connection to the gods/goddesses now symbolized by Christ, Mary and saints. What I believe for someone wanting to understand pagan past is the importance placed on the land/water/trees itself. The Christ/jewish tradition placed a temple as the center for worship and not in a grove, mound, spring or lake.


A thing to keep in mind is that the conversion to Christianity was originally one of belief, not culture. As the faith spread to different cultures the priests had to decide on individual cases what was inseparable from pagan religion and what was just general culture. The wearing of crowns at weddings was a contentious issue in the early centuries-some thought it was pagan, others just a wedding tradition.

As Christianity became established, rituals were made by priests based on passages of the New Testament, Old Testament, practices of monks, or new rituals could be invented at any time to meet the spiritual needs of the congregation. So it just naturally evolved away from Judaism. You'll have to research the history of each ritual to see how it developed (if you have particular rituals in mind), which is what I did, which is why I don't borrow anything from Christianity.

My studies focus on England, though I did read a book on Irish holy wells, and Christianizing pagan sites was extremely rare, I can only recall one nymphaeum in Chedworth, if I remember correctly, that looked at though it had been turned into a baptismal font. It's all about the history of the site. Is there any evidence of pre-Christian activity? How far back does its ritual use go? And pagans built temples and theaters (which were also important to religious functions) too.

That Paganism equaled nature reverence and Christianity did not is one of those false dichotomies, because it depended on the individual and the community.

Megatherium

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2014, 05:34:19 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;148818
Doesn't really matter whether or not they moved around: belief does not fossilise.  One can find evidence for practice and guess about belief, one can find occasional people who write belief down (usually an educated elite and thus a tiny minority of a culture), but one cannot find the actual beliefs with any certainty.

 
Yes, of course. However, I was simply pointing out that the general geographical location of one's ancestors can at least provide a starting point for further investigation, which, IMHO, a few small, but important steps up from "having no way of knowing".
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Juni

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2014, 06:04:59 pm »
Quote from: Megatherium;148823
Yes, of course. However, I was simply pointing out that the general geographical location of one's ancestors can at least provide a starting point for further investigation, which, IMHO, a few small, but important steps up from "having no way of knowing".

 
Not really, no. We can use a geographical location to determine what practices were common in the area, and based on practices we can infer belief; in some areas, we have records of specific individual's beliefs, and in some areas we have records of what people were taught to believe. These are starting points, but they're generalizations.

None of these things tell us what was in our actual ancestors' minds. None of these things tell us what religious activities our actual ancestors participated in. Look at the myriad of Christian denominations in the United States- do you think that every person in a single church has the same feelings and interpretations of the Bible? If someone from the future looked at a location and church records, how accurate do you think their assumptions would be about the beliefs and day-to-day practices of the whole congregation?

Maybe this all seems like semantics and hair splitting to you. I don't think this is an arbitrary distinction- I think making specific assertions based on generalized information is a really slippery slope, and is a danger that gets ignored all too often by historically-minded pagans. Our understanding of history is constantly changing, and is always affected by the biases of the present day.
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Megatherium

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2014, 09:04:12 pm »
Quote from: Juni;148831
Not really, no. We can use a geographical location to determine what practices were common in the area, and based on practices we can infer belief; in some areas, we have records of specific individual's beliefs, and in some areas we have records of what people were taught to believe. These are starting points, but they're generalizations.

None of these things tell us what was in our actual ancestors' minds. None of these things tell us what religious activities our actual ancestors participated in. Look at the myriad of Christian denominations in the United States- do you think that every person in a single church has the same feelings and interpretations of the Bible? If someone from the future looked at a location and church records, how accurate do you think their assumptions would be about the beliefs and day-to-day practices of the whole congregation?

Maybe this all seems like semantics and hair splitting to you. I don't think this is an arbitrary distinction- I think making specific assertions based on generalized information is a really slippery slope, and is a danger that gets ignored all too often by historically-minded pagans. Our understanding of history is constantly changing, and is always affected by the biases of the present day.

 
Oh, I don’t think what you’re saying is “hair-splitting” at all. I think you’ve made very good points. If anything, I’m the one being a bit pedantic.

I merely object to the statement that you have “no way of knowing which belief systems my ancestors may have been exposed to or participated in.” I agree that there is no certainty. I agree that any information we have is extremely limited, and not in any way reflective of the fully developed religious traditions that people participated in.

But what we have is still more than nothing. The fact that I can say with some degree of confidence that at least some pre-conversion Icelanders at some points in time worshipped a deity called “Thor” who associated in some way with thunder is far from a comprehensive description of those people’s beliefs.  But that is more than “nothing”. If we really had nothing whatsoever, then I would be unable to make a distinction between the relative validity of the statements that “pre-conversion Icelanders worshipped Thor”, and “pre-conversion Icelanders worshipped Shiva.” If we really had “nothing” then any attempts at reconstruction of any temperate European religious cultures would be an absolute waste of time.

We are extremely limited in our knowledge, and even what we can make assumptions about is far from a fully developed religious system. But at the same time, recons are not just making things up, either.
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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2014, 09:15:50 am »
Quote from: Megatherium;148843
I merely object to the statement that you have “no way of knowing which belief systems my ancestors may have been exposed to or participated in.” I agree that there is no certainty. I agree that any information we have is extremely limited, and not in any way reflective of the fully developed religious traditions that people participated in.

But what we have is still more than nothing.


That wasn't in question, really; from my perspective "knowing" requires certainty.  And people come in assuming that there is some way of getting certainty, and really, there is no certainty.

Thus, there is no way of knowing.

That doesn't mean there's no way of formulating theories, that there's no way of speaking about some things that have left evidence, that there are no names, no practices, no things that we guess, but none of these are knowing.

To me, this is an extremely important distinction.  (Unwarranted certainty is a severe failing.)
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
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we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Megatherium

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2014, 09:56:43 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;148894
That wasn't in question, really; from my perspective "knowing" requires certainty.  And people come in assuming that there is some way of getting certainty, and really, there is no certainty.

Thus, there is no way of knowing.

That doesn't mean there's no way of formulating theories, that there's no way of speaking about some things that have left evidence, that there are no names, no practices, no things that we guess, but none of these are knowing.

To me, this is an extremely important distinction.  (Unwarranted certainty is a severe failing.)

 
Well, when you put it that way, I completely agree. The only way to "know" someone's beliefs with certainty would be to talk to them (and then there would be questions of the degree of honesty, etc. that comes with eyewitness accounts). Since time machines don't exist, we have nothing but educated guesses. I quite like "unwarranted certainty is a severe failing". I wanna put it on a shirt.
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llwynog

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2014, 03:36:31 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;148894
That wasn't in question, really; from my perspective "knowing" requires certainty.  And people come in assuming that there is some way of getting certainty, and really, there is no certainty.

Thus, there is no way of knowing.

That doesn't mean there's no way of formulating theories, that there's no way of speaking about some things that have left evidence, that there are no names, no practices, no things that we guess, but none of these are knowing.

To me, this is an extremely important distinction.  (Unwarranted certainty is a severe failing.)

 
There is no way of knowing most of history. Even history well documented in writing does not give us a way of knowing exactly what happened. But that is not what is at question here. It is about what information we can use to help understand paganism of the past. I believe it is their. Yes I will agree there was no continuous pagan underground in western Europe. But traces of the faith persisted and when pieced together give us an understanding of what they believed and can be used to help anyone wanting to learn of our past in reflection to what we believe today.

llwynog

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Re: Findinig my ansestors pre-Christian beliefs.
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2014, 07:47:45 pm »
Quote from: Materialist;148820


As Christianity became established, rituals were made by priests based on passages of the New Testament, Old Testament, practices of monks, or new rituals could be invented at any time to meet the spiritual needs of the congregation. So it just naturally evolved away from Judaism. You'll have to research the history of each ritual to see how it developed (if you have particular rituals in mind), which is what I did, which is why I don't borrow anything from Christianity.

My studies focus on England, though I did read a book on Irish holy wells, and Christianizing pagan sites was extremely rare, I can only recall one nymphaeum in Chedworth, if I remember correctly, that looked at though it had been turned into a baptismal font. It's all about the history of the site. Is there any evidence of pre-Christian activity? How far back does its ritual use go? And pagans built temples and theaters (which were also important to religious functions) too.

.

 
Holy wells and sacred springs as Christian symbols is an interesting problem to me. There is many references relating wells, springs, mounds, lakes, bogs and other natural phenomena to paganism. We have at evidence to support the pagans western Europe used these natural sites in their religious practice. In my understanding of Christianity water is certainly symbolic but the natural site for the water itself is not the sacred aspect. There is evidence that the church was very concerned about the use of these natural sites and other rituals.  Here are some examples of what I mean.

 From Burchard of Worms' Corrector (Decretum, Book XIX) (ca. 1008-1012 CE)
61. Hast thou observed the traditions of the pagans, which, as if by hereditary right, with the assistance of the devil, fathers have ever left to their sons even to these days, that is, that thou shouldst worship the elements, the moon or the sun or the course of the stars, the new moon or the eclipse of the moon; that thou shouldst be able by thy shouts or by thy aid to restore her splendor, or these elements [be able] to succor thee, or that thou shouldst have power with them--or hast thou observed the new moon for building a house or making marriages? If thou hast, thou shalt do penance for two years in the appointed fast days; for it is written, "All, whatsoever ye do in word and in work, do all in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" [Col. 3:17].
66. Hast thou come to any place to pray other than a church or other religious place which thy bishop or thy priest showed thee, that is, either to springs or to stones or to trees or to crossroads, and there in reverence for the place lighted a candle or a torch or carried thither bread or any offering or eaten there or sought there any healing of body or mind? If thou hast done or consented to such things, thou shalt do penance for three years on the appointed fast days.
94. Hast thou eaten anything offered to idols, that is, the offerings that are made in some places at the tombs of the dead or at springs or trees or at stones or at crossroads, or carried stones to a cairn, or wreaths for the crosses that are placed at crossroads? If thou hast, or hast given thy consent to any such things, thou shalt do penance for thirty days on bread and water
.99. Hast thou done anything like what the pagans did, and still do, on the first of January in the guise of a stag or a calf? If thou hast, thou shalt do penance for thirty days on bread and water.
104. Hast thou done what some do on the first of January (that is, on the eighth day after the Lord's Nativity)--who on that holy night wind magic skeins, spin, sew: all at the prompting of the devil beginning whatever task they can begin on account of the new year? If thou hast, thou shalt do penance for forty days on bread and water.

Pagan Survivals, Superstitions and Popular Cultures in Early Medieval Pastoral Literature By Bernadette Filotas includes these findings.
Rabanus Maurus (d. 856) compiled a long roll of vices and sins ending with “the entire cult of idols and demons, namely, omensand those who sacrifice to (or in the vicinity of–ad) stones, trees and springs, and who perform enchantments or divinations and so on, are all sacrilege.

He reports from every century and every region of the period and area covered in this work forbade the faithful in almost identical terms to offer vows to trees (vota ad arbores), without indicating the differences that must have existed from place to place and time to time as to the kinds of tree,vows and ritual involved. The monotonous reiteration of words and phrases createsa deceptively homogeneous appearance of an undifferentiated folk paganism stretching from the Mediterranean to the Irish Sea and the Rhine, from lat eAntiquity to the end of the Carolingian Empire.
Caesarius’ sermons, but also in civil law, letters and hagiography. the cult of trees and springs, singing and dancing around churches, and the rituals of the Calends


In another work E. L. Backman explained that the dancers chose the mountain chapel of St Vitus because of its Hohlenstein grotto. The saint was associated with cures through blessed water at this pre-christian shrine. Women had a custom of offering iron toads at this grotto, which they continued to do into modern times. An 18th century cardinal felt called upon to forbid the placing of these and “other superstitious images," including human forms.

Taken individually there could be objections about how well they support knowledge about pre Christian religions of Europe but as more and more are brought to light their meaning is clearer. Again someone giving an offering to a spring or well may well have seen themselves as performing an Christian act but the act of giving an offering to a well is more consistent with our understanding of the rituals of pagan Europe.

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* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

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