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Author Topic: Other: women can't win when it comes to dating  (Read 10146 times)

PrincessKLS

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women can't win when it comes to dating
« on: May 02, 2014, 01:38:49 am »
Why is it, that if a woman is single and not going out or making "extra efforts" to meet a person (typically a guy since this double standard seems to apply to straight women) then they "must not really want it" or if they do make extra efforts and/or are forward with their dating advances they are called desperate, or even slutty? I mean even in the world of online dating, things haven't changed much in this perspective. So are we supposed to just sit around and wait for him? Or...wait that's not correct either (sarcasm)....

In my life, I've gone through so much "shaming" of what has come natural to me that it seems like I personally never win. Maybe perhaps some of you know the feeling. What's up with all these weird double standards, women have?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 03:07:15 pm by RandallS »
PrincessKLS

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Re: women can't win when it comes to dating
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2014, 09:09:56 am »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;146562
Why is it, that if a woman is single and not going out or making "extra efforts" to meet a person (typically a guy since this double standard seems to apply to straight women) then they "must not really want it" or if they do make extra efforts and/or are forward with their dating advances they are called desperate, or even slutty? I mean even in the world of online dating, things haven't changed much in this perspective. So are we supposed to just sit around and wait for him? Or...wait that's not correct either (sarcasm)....

In my life, I've gone through so much "shaming" of what has come natural to me that it seems like I personally never win. Maybe perhaps some of you know the feeling. What's up with all these weird double standards, women have?

 
Sexism, and your oblivious gender implications.
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stephyjh

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Re: women can't win when it comes to dating
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2014, 01:05:49 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;146562
Why is it, that if a woman is single and not going out or making "extra efforts" to meet a person (typically a guy since this double standard seems to apply to straight women) then they "must not really want it" or if they do make extra efforts and/or are forward with their dating advances they are called desperate, or even slutty? I mean even in the world of online dating, things haven't changed much in this perspective. So are we supposed to just sit around and wait for him? Or...wait that's not correct either (sarcasm)....

In my life, I've gone through so much "shaming" of what has come natural to me that it seems like I personally never win. Maybe perhaps some of you know the feeling. What's up with all these weird double standards, women have?

My mama used to say that a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle. If a person didn't get it, or asked what a fish would need with a bicycle, she'd just stare until it dawned on the person that that's the point.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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Redfaery

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Re: women can't win when it comes to dating
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2014, 01:20:57 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;146562
Why is it, that if a woman is single and not going out or making "extra efforts" to meet a person (typically a guy since this double standard seems to apply to straight women) then they "must not really want it" or if they do make extra efforts and/or are forward with their dating advances they are called desperate, or even slutty? I mean even in the world of online dating, things haven't changed much in this perspective. So are we supposed to just sit around and wait for him? Or...wait that's not correct either (sarcasm)....

In my life, I've gone through so much "shaming" of what has come natural to me that it seems like I personally never win. Maybe perhaps some of you know the feeling. What's up with all these weird double standards, women have?


I honestly think US society has a really fucked up (no pun intended) attitude towards sex and relationships. It's not just the gender roles, it's the heavily hetero-normative and cis-normative (dammit, spellcheck, if that's not a word, it SHOULD BE) values that saturate not just the media, but the entire system.

So if you want to talk about "shaming" what comes naturally....

Did you know that there's no federal law against discriminating against LGBTQ individuals? I live in North Carolina, and I actually have a pretty tough ride, legally. It would be perfectly legal for any employer to fire me if they find out I'm a lesbian - or if they just begin to suspect that I am.

Currently, it's illegal for me to get married in this state. If I go to another state and get married, my marriage won't be recognized. I'm not allowed to adopt children jointly with another woman.

I should also mention that there's still a lovely anti-sodomy law on the books here in North Carolina, even though it is technically unconstitutional. Yep. Can't be enforced, but nice to know that my government thinks me having sex is a "Crime Against Nature."

And...at least you can discuss your relationship problems openly. When I was still in the process of coming out, my mom dragged her heels. She discouraged me from telling my grandmother. "You wouldn't come out as straight, would you?" she kept telling me that, and acted as if it would be this huge deal. It still hurts when I think about it, especially considering what happened when I finally *did* come out to my Grandmother.

You know what? GMM actually took it better than my mom ever did. She didn't do the "You're in a phase" shit. MY OWN MOM DID THAT FOR 10 YEARS. She didn't blame my Asperger's for somehow making me not-straight. (Yeah, my mom had this idea that Aspies were all pansexual, though I don't think that's what she would have called it.) And you know what else my mom did? She forbade me from coming out to my dad, because she said I shouldn't talk to him about who I liked to sleep with. All of that really hurt. It still hurts.

But I'm just glad that I never had to go to a "therapist" to be "cured." I'm just glad that I didn't have parents who disowned me. I'm glad that my mom finally looked at me and said "you never did like boys." She got it. Plenty of gays and lesbians, not to even get started on trans* individuals, will never be so lucky.

I'm not trying to come across as bashing you. You're right. Women do face a double standard. But so often when that double standard is discussed, it's only STRAIGHT women who are discussed. Specifically, only straight, cis-women.

So...I hope I haven't offended anyone. I don't want to come across as an angry lesbian or anything, but this is just what I feel.
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baduhmtisss

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Re: women can't win when it comes to dating
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2014, 04:20:14 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;146583
I honestly think US society has a really fucked up (no pun intended) attitude towards sex and relationships. It's not just the gender roles, it's the heavily hetero-normative and cis-normative (dammit, spellcheck, if that's not a word, it SHOULD BE) values that saturate not just the media, but the entire system.

So if you want to talk about "shaming" what comes naturally....

Did you know that there's no federal law against discriminating against LGBTQ individuals? I live in North Carolina, and I actually have a pretty tough ride, legally. It would be perfectly legal for any employer to fire me if they find out I'm a lesbian - or if they just begin to suspect that I am.

Currently, it's illegal for me to get married in this state. If I go to another state and get married, my marriage won't be recognized. I'm not allowed to adopt children jointly with another woman.

I should also mention that there's still a lovely anti-sodomy law on the books here in North Carolina, even though it is technically unconstitutional. Yep. Can't be enforced, but nice to know that my government thinks me having sex is a "Crime Against Nature."

And...at least you can discuss your relationship problems openly. When I was still in the process of coming out, my mom dragged her heels. She discouraged me from telling my grandmother. "You wouldn't come out as straight, would you?" she kept telling me that, and acted as if it would be this huge deal. It still hurts when I think about it, especially considering what happened when I finally *did* come out to my Grandmother.

You know what? GMM actually took it better than my mom ever did. She didn't do the "You're in a phase" shit. MY OWN MOM DID THAT FOR 10 YEARS. She didn't blame my Asperger's for somehow making me not-straight. (Yeah, my mom had this idea that Aspies were all pansexual, though I don't think that's what she would have called it.) And you know what else my mom did? She forbade me from coming out to my dad, because she said I shouldn't talk to him about who I liked to sleep with. All of that really hurt. It still hurts.

But I'm just glad that I never had to go to a "therapist" to be "cured." I'm just glad that I didn't have parents who disowned me. I'm glad that my mom finally looked at me and said "you never did like boys." She got it. Plenty of gays and lesbians, not to even get started on trans* individuals, will never be so lucky.

I'm not trying to come across as bashing you. You're right. Women do face a double standard. But so often when that double standard is discussed, it's only STRAIGHT women who are discussed. Specifically, only straight, cis-women.

So...I hope I haven't offended anyone. I don't want to come across as an angry lesbian or anything, but this is just what I feel.

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Re: women can't win when it comes to dating
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2014, 04:20:23 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;146583
So...I hope I haven't offended anyone. I don't want to come across as an angry lesbian or anything, but this is just what I feel.

That's ok. Be angry. I think everyone should be angry about how our culture views sex and gender because it's so fucked up. And then we get to use that anger to change what we can, when we can.

I personally get a little tired of being the "straight cis-woman in a monogamous marriage" in my circles. People need to stop being so surprised when they find someone so "normal" who doesn't really give a rat's ass what your sexual, gender, or relationship preferences are so long as (a) everyone's consenting and (b) you realize "no means no" when you hit on me.

But I put up with it for people I like. And I probably whined a little when I was single, too, for various reasons, starting with "I'm smart and fat, therefore most men don't want me."

So I think the real question is "What can we realistically do, on a day-to-day basis, to combat the stupidity and bigotry?"

Karen

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Re: women can't win when it comes to dating
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2014, 06:26:10 pm »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;146593
So I think the real question is "What can we realistically do, on a day-to-day basis, to combat the stupidity and bigotry?"


*A quick note beforehand: All of my friends, myself included, are cisgendered and heterosexual*
 
In my friends circle, I'm one of the ONLY girls. And because most of my friends are guys and single, they're always on sites/apps like Plenty of Fish and Tinder. Therefore they MUST make fun of every woman they come across, whether she's hot (then she's crazy) or she's overweight even a little (then she's a whale).

My boyfriend won't let me "pick fights"--meaning I mention that what they're doing is fucked up--with them for whatever reason, so I've taken to leaving the room when they pull out their phones for that crap. Gods forbid I speak my mind about something that really matters to me.
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veggiewolf

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Re: women can't win when it comes to dating
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2014, 06:39:07 pm »
Quote from: missgraceless;146598
...

My boyfriend won't let me "pick fights"--meaning I mention that what they're doing is fucked up--with them for whatever reason, so I've taken to leaving the room when they pull out their phones for that crap. Gods forbid I speak my mind about something that really matters to me.

 
This is probably a silly couple of questions, but what do you mean by "won't let you", and why would you want to be around someone (let alone date someone) who tries to control how you behave?
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stephyjh

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Re: women can't win when it comes to dating
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2014, 06:51:55 pm »
Quote from: missgraceless;146598
In my friends circle, I'm one of the ONLY girls. And because most of my friends are guys and single, they're always on sites/apps like Plenty of Fish and Tinder. Therefore they MUST make fun of every woman they come across, whether she's hot (then she's crazy) or she's overweight even a little (then she's a whale).

Um, none of those have a causal relationship. Your friends are just being assholes. Most of my social circle, with the exception of my pagan group, is straight, single guys, too, and there's only one in the group who has a habit of acting that way, which is why he's rarely invited to hang out with us--because the guys can't stand his disrespect and crudeness. Men are people, just like women are people, just like gender-non-binary individuals are people, and they aren't all jerks. You just happen to be hanging around with ones who are.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 06:52:38 pm by stephyjh »
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
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veggiewolf

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Re: women can't win when it comes to dating
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2014, 06:56:39 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;146562
Why is it, that if a woman is single and not going out or making "extra efforts" to meet a person (typically a guy since this double standard seems to apply to straight women) then they "must not really want it" or if they do make extra efforts and/or are forward with their dating advances they are called desperate, or even slutty? I mean even in the world of online dating, things haven't changed much in this perspective. So are we supposed to just sit around and wait for him? Or...wait that's not correct either (sarcasm)....

In my life, I've gone through so much "shaming" of what has come natural to me that it seems like I personally never win. Maybe perhaps some of you know the feeling. What's up with all these weird double standards, women have?

 
I call bullshit on the whole "men are pigs" thing you seem to be heading toward.  There are plenty of people out there of ALL genders that have difficulties when dating, just as there are plenty of people who don't.

Why do the opinions of the shamers matter to you, anyway?
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veggiewolf

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Re: women can't win when it comes to dating
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2014, 07:09:36 pm »
Quote from: dragonfaerie;146593
...

So I think the real question is "What can we realistically do, on a day-to-day basis, to combat the stupidity and bigotry?"

Karen

 
It's a bit of a platitude, but we can be the change we want to see.

(Ugh - I hate that statement...even though it stands true.)

We can combat ignorance with information, and stop tolerating the stupidity and bigotry by speaking up.  I was just saying, in chat, that I no longer have friends that slut shame me because I've cut the ones that did out of my life.  Even with family, and all the drama it entails, there are lines I've put in place that they know not to cross because I'll walk out.

It isn't easy, but we're not going to get anywhere if we sit back and allow it to happen.

*climbs down from soapbox*
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Redfaery

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Re: women can't win when it comes to dating
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2014, 05:37:32 am »
Quote from: RainbowSnake;146592
If I wasn't on tapatalk, you'd be getting rep right now.

 

LOL....that's OK. I just checked my settings page. It looks like that rant just garnered me more rep than all my other 147 posts COMBINED.

The moral of the story seems to be that I shouldn't be afraid of speaking my mind? I'm so used to having my opinions shot down, and not feeling confident in my own beliefs. It's great to feel validated like this.

Quote
It's a bit of a platitude, but we can be the change we want to see.


It also used to be my college's motto, until they found out it was taken. That's my Guilford! I love my Quaker school.:D:

I don't know how helpful this is, but I also think that people who don't fit into the societal norm - who aren't straight, white, cisgendered, Protestant Christian (or Catholic, whichever is more predominant in the area) - can have a positive impact on stereotypes by just being VISIBLE and showing people that they are REAL.

I think a large part of my parents' religious and political shift from social conservatism to being pretty much center-left liberals and (in my mom's case, at least) all-embracing religious Universalists had to do with how my sister and I turned out.

(and I've rewritten this section a couple of times, because I keep going off on long tangents. It's really interesting to me how my parents' views have evolved, and I'd love to talk about it, but I'm sure it'd be boring to just about everyone else but me....still. If anyone wants to hear, just shoot me a PM.)

My parents used to be very conservative. Registered Republicans, anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage. To be fair, they were also very much social-justice activists, even when they were telling me, "no, it's just a phase, you're really straight. I'm sure." But I think being confronted with the fact that my sister and I had come to believe so differently, and yet that they knew they had given us the best educations and done nothing wrong in raising us, and that we were wonderful girls...that really changed their minds on so much.
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yewberry

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Re: women can't win when it comes to dating
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2014, 09:50:30 am »
Quote from: missgraceless;146598
In my friends circle, I'm one of the ONLY girls. And because most of my friends are guys and single, they're always on sites/apps like Plenty of Fish and Tinder. Therefore they MUST make fun of every woman they come across, whether she's hot (then she's crazy) or she's overweight even a little (then she's a whale).


You need better friends, yo.  Like, the actual kind who respect other human beings (and only mock them for their preferences in condiments--WTF, mayonnaise?!).

Quote
My boyfriend won't let me "pick fights"--meaning I mention that what they're doing is fucked up--with them for whatever reason, so I've taken to leaving the room when they pull out their phones for that crap. Gods forbid I speak my mind about something that really matters to me.

 
A better boyfriend too, I see.

Brina

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Re: women can't win when it comes to dating
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2014, 12:59:18 pm »
Quote from: yewberry;146617
You need better friends, yo.  Like, the actual kind who respect other human beings (and only mock them for their preferences in condiments--WTF, mayonnaise?!).


 
A better boyfriend too, I see.

Brina

Trust me, if I could pick my friends, I would. But considering all of my friends are originally my boyfriends, and I'm a complete hermit when I'm not working full time, it's kinda difficult to find new ones.

My boyfriend really isn't the problem; he's the lynch pin of the group, making sure everyone gets along. Even if it means telling me to shut up once in a while.

And no, telling me to shut up isn't bad or abusive or controlling between us. I have a chronic case of word vomit and just don't know when to stop rambling.
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PrincessKLS

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Re: women can't win when it comes to dating
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2014, 06:33:31 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;146601
I call bullshit on the whole "men are pigs" thing you seem to be heading toward.  There are plenty of people out there of ALL genders that have difficulties when dating, just as there are plenty of people who don't.

Why do the opinions of the shamers matter to you, anyway?

 
Actually I'm not trying to say all men are pigs. I have to say, ironically most of the issues I've had with people judging me are other women. They can be so critical.
PrincessKLS

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