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Author Topic: Just out of curiosity  (Read 6041 times)

PrincessKLS

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Just out of curiosity
« on: April 16, 2014, 10:28:18 pm »
What's Hoodoo's stance and rules casting love spells or spells in general? Is it similar to Wicca or neo-pagan (fluffy bunny) rules?
PrincessKLS

stephyjh

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Re: Just out of curiosity....
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2014, 11:25:32 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;145396
What's Hoodoo's stance and rules casting love spells or spells in general? Is it similar to Wicca or neo-pagan (fluffy bunny) rules?


What's your definition of neopagan, and how are you defining fluffy bunny?
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That what is no sense must be nonsense.

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Re: Just out of curiosity....
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2014, 11:55:21 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;145396
What's Hoodoo's stance and rules casting love spells or spells in general? Is it similar to Wicca or neo-pagan (fluffy bunny) rules?

 
What Stephy said in terms of questions.

It'd also be helpful to know why you're asking. Your question - since it's so brief - comes across (especially in light of some of your other posts) as trying to find a system that won't have issue with what you want to do.

Which is complicated.

Because on one hand, people should absolutely find a path that suits them and their needs.

But on the other hand, specific paths are specific paths for a reason - and picking the techniques out of one path and the ethics  you like out of another path can sometimes work, and sometimes get you in a great deal of difficulty - not because some cosmic force is going to come down and scold you, but because making some kinds of choices change how you act in the world, or how people react to you, or what options you have.
 
In the case of Hoodoo, the basic concept is that you can do whatever you see fit - *but* that that opens you up for other people to do the same to you, and that if you're not really good at keeping your own protections and magical resources up to dealing with that, you can end up rather deep in complex situations you don't really understand and can't get yourself out of. (Both magically and personally.)
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Re: Just out of curiosity....
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2014, 12:35:54 am »
Quote from: Jenett;145410
But on the other hand, specific paths are specific paths for a reason - and picking the techniques out of one path and the ethics  you like out of another path can sometimes work, and sometimes get you in a great deal of difficulty - not because some cosmic force is going to come down and scold you, but because making some kinds of choices change how you act in the world, or how people react to you, or what options you have.
 
In the case of Hoodoo, the basic concept is that you can do whatever you see fit - *but* that that opens you up for other people to do the same to you, and that if you're not really good at keeping your own protections and magical resources up to dealing with that, you can end up rather deep in complex situations you don't really understand and can't get yourself out of. (Both magically and personally.)

 
Quoting the last reply because you should re-read what Jenett wrote, poster. She is bang on.

I tend to be pretty free with information when it comes to magic - I'll point people at love spells, curses, whatever, because in this day and age it's easy to get such information. I don't often bother with ethical warnings because ethics are quite personal... and more so because if someone has made up their mind to do something, they're gonna do it. They'll just twist their world view until they feel okay about doing it, and watching people do that gives me a headache.

So. Is that what you're trying to do, OP? Give yourself permission to be naughty?

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Re: Just out of curiosity....
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2014, 02:17:42 am »
Quote from: Mama Fortuna;145413
Quoting the last reply because you should re-read what Jenett wrote, poster. She is bang on.

I tend to be pretty free with information when it comes to magic - I'll point people at love spells, curses, whatever, because in this day and age it's easy to get such information. I don't often bother with ethical warnings because ethics are quite personal... and more so because if someone has made up their mind to do something, they're gonna do it. They'll just twist their world view until they feel okay about doing it, and watching people do that gives me a headache.

So. Is that what you're trying to do, OP? Give yourself permission to be naughty?

For me, the ethics of hoodoo have a lot to do with cultural appropriation. OP, it's true that a lot of rootworkers will throw jinxes when there's a need - but I personally believe that, before you do anything with hoodoo, you need to have at least a basic understanding of its cultural setting and, therefore, some of the reasons why a rootworker might have a need to throw for someone*. We're talking about a (living) set of practices that often came about as a result of a lot of social oppression. We're (mostly) not just talking cursing someone because you don't like them. Appropriating the occasional 'spell' or jinx without understanding the living tradition they come from is, in my opinion, acting like a very poor guest in someone else's house. I recommend the Lucky Mojo site for reading about the cultural background of hoodoo, although there are lots of good sources - and if you live in America, you also have the advantage of being able to talk to people-sources who actually practice this stuff within its cultural background.

Also seconding Jenett's assessment of the issues with cursing in hoodoo.

Ultimately, of course, it's as much about your personal ethics as any other way to curse/jinx. I've done the occasional vinegar jar when I've been angry, and I don't like how I end up feeling as a result. I don't have any basic problem with jinxing - but in the same way as I wouldn't throw a punch at someone in the physical world because I couldn't square it with my integrity and general compassion afterwards, I wouldn't throw for someone much in hoodoo. It would make me feel too awful about throwing for someone, even when they've done some fairly awful  And I'd need a LOT of hyssop baths each time to clear myself of that. At the same time, hoodoo developed in situations of oppression, and people with less privilege than others always have reasons to need to redress the balance in other ways. I've been walked over enough that I know when I've had enough. But it has to have gone a long way, for me, and I have to have tried other, more 'mundane' ways of dealing with the problem. Those are my personal ethics, anyway. Just in case you were interested.

*Hoodoo workers don't often use words like 'curse' or 'magic'. These tend to be later, often Pagan-brought-in terms.
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beith

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Re: Just out of curiosity....
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2014, 09:43:36 am »
Quote from: Jenett;145410

It'd also be helpful to know why you're asking. Your question - since it's so brief - comes across (especially in light of some of your other posts) as trying to find a system that won't have issue with what you want to do.

Which is complicated.

Because on one hand, people should absolutely find a path that suits them and their needs.

But on the other hand, specific paths are specific paths for a reason - and picking the techniques out of one path and the ethics  you like out of another path can sometimes work, and sometimes get you in a great deal of difficulty - not because some cosmic force is going to come down and scold you, but because making some kinds of choices change how you act in the world, or how people react to you, or what options you have.

 
This.  All of this.

All the responses in this thread have been great and I suggest you read them carefully.

I'm also interested in your responses to Stephy's questions.  Are you equating neo-pagan with fluffy bunny?  Additionally, a lot of religions can fall under the neo-pagan umbrella.  Not everyone who identifies as a neo-pagan practices magic/casts spells, so an explanation of what you mean by neo-pagan is warranted.

PrincessKLS

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Re: Just out of curiosity....
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2014, 11:21:09 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;145410
What Stephy said in terms of questions.

It'd also be helpful to know why you're asking. Your question - since it's so brief - comes across (especially in light of some of your other posts) as trying to find a system that won't have issue with what you want to do.

Which is complicated.

Because on one hand, people should absolutely find a path that suits them and their needs.

But on the other hand, specific paths are specific paths for a reason - and picking the techniques out of one path and the ethics  you like out of another path can sometimes work, and sometimes get you in a great deal of difficulty - not because some cosmic force is going to come down and scold you, but because making some kinds of choices change how you act in the world, or how people react to you, or what options you have.
 
In the case of Hoodoo, the basic concept is that you can do whatever you see fit - *but* that that opens you up for other people to do the same to you, and that if you're not really good at keeping your own protections and magical resources up to dealing with that, you can end up rather deep in complex situations you don't really understand and can't get yourself out of. (Both magically and personally.)


Like I originally posted I'm currently questioning some of the "white magick" I was raised with in my teens. I don't consider Christianity a white magick path in all truth so I don't feel the need to give it up if I try Hoodoo but I just really don't identify with modern Wicca anymore. I'm not saying it's a bad religion but it's watered down and misused by "beginner pagan books" like Silver Raven Wolf that I don't really see any purity in it anymore. Plus I've tried generic love spells and I know what I want so why not try something new?
PrincessKLS

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Re: Just out of curiosity....
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2014, 01:49:31 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;145414
For me, the ethics of hoodoo have a lot to do with cultural appropriation. OP, it's true that a lot of rootworkers will throw jinxes when there's a need - but I personally believe that, before you do anything with hoodoo, you need to have at least a basic understanding of its cultural setting and, therefore, some of the reasons why a rootworker might have a need to throw for someone*. We're talking about a (living) set of practices that often came about as a result of a lot of social oppression. We're (mostly) not just talking cursing someone because you don't like them. Appropriating the occasional 'spell' or jinx without understanding the living tradition they come from is, in my opinion, acting like a very poor guest in someone else's house. I recommend the Lucky Mojo site for reading about the cultural background of hoodoo, although there are lots of good sources - and if you live in America, you also have the advantage of being able to talk to people-sources who actually practice this stuff within its cultural background.

 
Seconding all of this. Because it's right.


On  apersonal note... Like I said before, I'm pretty easy about saying, "there, go read Lucky Mojo" or what-have-you. This is equal parts hoping that the seeker will learn more and so come to respect traditions, and equal parts not giving a crap about them getting in over their heads.

Responses like yours, Naomi, remind me to care a little bit more. Thank you for that. It's something I've been needing this month, I think.

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Re: Just out of curiosity....
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2014, 02:06:32 am »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;145489
Like I originally posted I'm currently questioning some of the "white magick" I was raised with in my teens. I don't consider Christianity a white magick path in all truth so I don't feel the need to give it up if I try Hoodoo but I just really don't identify with modern Wicca anymore. I'm not saying it's a bad religion but it's watered down and misused by "beginner pagan books" like Silver Raven Wolf that I don't really see any purity in it anymore. Plus I've tried generic love spells and I know what I want so why not try something new?

 
So wait...let me see iff I got this right.

Silver Ravenwolf writes beginner books of questionable quality.
She uses the term Wicca to define the practice she is decribing in her books.
Therefore, Wicca itself is questionable rather than just SRW's interpretation of it.

Yeah, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that line of reasoning.
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beith

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Re: Just out of curiosity....
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2014, 11:23:57 am »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;145489
Like I originally posted I'm currently questioning some of the "white magick" I was raised with in my teens. I don't consider Christianity a white magick path in all truth so I don't feel the need to give it up if I try Hoodoo but I just really don't identify with modern Wicca anymore. I'm not saying it's a bad religion but it's watered down and misused by "beginner pagan books" like Silver Raven Wolf that I don't really see any purity in it anymore. Plus I've tried generic love spells and I know what I want so why not try something new?

 
First, all of Wicca is modern, in the context of the history of religion, as it was developed early in the 20th century.

While there may be questionable interpretations of Wicca, as Allaya says that doesn't mean these questionable interpretations speak for all of Wicca.  To me, that's like saying the evangelical Christians spewing hateful rhetoric speak for all of Christianity.  They don't.  I can totally see that you may be experiencing this if you're seeking out Wiccans to meet up and practice with...perhaps you're only running into those who are your Silver Ravenwolf types.  But again, it's not fair to equate that with all of Wicca.

Moving on, if Wicca isn't for you it's obviously a good idea to seek an alternate path.  However, I'd advise that "I want to cast a love spell and Wicca says that's bad, so I'm going to try hoodoo now so that I can do what I want" isn't the best reasoning for choosing a new path.

Please read Naomi J's response again.  The cultural context of hoodoo is very important.

I recommend you study a variety of witchcraft and magic traditions to find something that suits your needs, and again I think you need a better reason than wanting to cast love spells to start following a particular path.  Begin exploring a path that may suit all aspects of your religious/spiritual life.  To find what that path is, you must keep studying.

IceAngie

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Re: Just out of curiosity....
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2014, 12:20:02 pm »
Quote from: beith;145518
Moving on, if Wicca isn't for you it's obviously a good idea to seek an alternate path.  However, I'd advise that "I want to cast a love spell and Wicca says that's bad, so I'm going to try hoodoo now so that I can do what I want" isn't the best reasoning for choosing a new path.

(...)

I recommend you study a variety of witchcraft and magic traditions to find something that suits your needs, and again I think you need a better reason than wanting to cast love spells to start following a particular path.  Begin exploring a path that may suit all aspects of your religious/spiritual life.  To find what that path is, you must keep studying.


This. If you're looking for a path that allows you to cast a particular spell, because what you want is to cast that particular spell, then cast the damn spell and stop looking for an excuse.

If you are genuinely interested in following a magical path or a religion, then stop worrying about the spell and start studying the history and foundations of those that call to you. And I mean the history and foundations, not the first thing that you can get your hands on and nothing more.
Angeles/IceAngie/Selegna.

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Re: Just out of curiosity....
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2014, 04:46:06 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;145499
So wait...let me see iff I got this right.

Silver Ravenwolf writes beginner books of questionable quality.
She uses the term Wicca to define the practice she is decribing in her books.
Therefore, Wicca itself is questionable rather than just SRW's interpretation of it.

Yeah, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that line of reasoning.

 
Not meaning to offend you or other Wiccans but that was like my first intro to Wicca. Although Wicca does have it's good points, I feel it has some flaws.
PrincessKLS

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Re: Just out of curiosity....
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2014, 08:59:28 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;167450
Not meaning to offend you or other Wiccans but that was like my first intro to Wicca. Although Wicca does have it's good points, I feel it has some flaws.

 
For starters, I am not Wiccan. Some of my practices may be wiccanate, but I am not Wiccan.

I was calling bullshit on that line of reasoning. I am not personally offended, as I do not have a horse in this race. I just don't like the incredibly faulty logic being used here.

Let us have a look at your previous statement:

Quote
*I'm not saying it's a bad religion but it's watered down and misused by "beginner pagan books" like Silver Raven Wolf that I don't really see any purity in it anymore.


Now lets see how shaky the logic itself is by taking the religion out of it.

I'm not saying (something) is a bad (thing) but it's watered down and misused by (someone) that I don't really see any purity in it anymore.

I'm not saying mushrooms are a bad pizza topping but it's watered down and misused by Dominos that I don't really see any purity in it anymore. Because of this, mushrooms are a flawed pizza topping and there is no point at all in going to try a mushroom pizza from Papa Johns, Pizza Hut, that awesome little pizza place on the corner, or by making my own pizza at home.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

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Re: Just out of curiosity....
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2014, 10:20:37 am »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;167450
Not meaning to offend you or other Wiccans but that was like my first intro to Wicca. Although Wicca does have it's good points, I feel it has some flaws.

Don't feel too bad, because SRW couldn't portray Wicca in that intro because she's not Wiccan. Anything you're able to read about Wicca is only a fraction of what it entails because it's traditionally an initiatory mystery tradition. Which flaws do you think it contains?
Semper Fidelis

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Re: Just out of curiosity....
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2014, 05:48:50 am »
Quote from: Micheál;167484
Don't feel too bad, because SRW couldn't portray Wicca in that intro because she's not Wiccan. Anything you're able to read about Wicca is only a fraction of what it entails because it's traditionally an initiatory mystery tradition. Which flaws do you think it contains?

This. Princess, I'd listen to Micheal. He's actually an initiated Wiccan 3rd Degree Priest in the Alexandrian Tradition, so he really does know stuff you won't find in any books. If you want to know real Wicca, you need to talk to someone like him.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 05:49:07 am by Redfaery »
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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