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Author Topic: Veles  (Read 7475 times)

Tom

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Veles
« on: December 22, 2013, 06:41:57 pm »
I was told recently that there's now a Baltic and Slavic Paganism SIG and since I've been working with what seems to be Veles relatively recently (though I only realized it was him several months after I first started), I thought I'd come here and ask if any of you guys have any good resources on him.

Most of what I have that isn't UPG is from various websites which may or may not be the most reliable (I know wikipedia can be problematic) and I would like to be directed to sources.

Also I'm interested in talking with others who have worked with him.

I've also been doing stuff in relation to Russian folklore, primarily with the figure Koschei, which actually is partly how I ended up working with Veles.

savveir

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Re: Veles
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2013, 08:49:29 pm »
Quote from: Tom;133675
I was told recently that there's now a Baltic and Slavic Paganism SIG and since I've been working with what seems to be Veles relatively recently (though I only realized it was him several months after I first started), I thought I'd come here and ask if any of you guys have any good resources on him.

Most of what I have that isn't UPG is from various websites which may or may not be the most reliable (I know wikipedia can be problematic) and I would like to be directed to sources.

Also I'm interested in talking with others who have worked with him.

I've also been doing stuff in relation to Russian folklore, primarily with the figure Koschei, which actually is partly how I ended up working with Veles.

 

I might have some sources kicking around, I'll need to dig them up later since I can't remember what was decent and what wasn't and what was UPG :P

I can relate to doing things in relation to Russian folklore, that has highly informed my practice. Though I work with Baba Yaga(and their relation to Veles), rather than Koschei currently.

I hope this makes sense, still early for me.
"I give myself very good advice, but I very seldom follow it."
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Tom

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Re: Veles
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2013, 04:40:17 am »
Quote from: savvy;133688
I might have some sources kicking around, I'll need to dig them up later since I can't remember what was decent and what wasn't and what was UPG :P

I can relate to doing things in relation to Russian folklore, that has highly informed my practice. Though I work with Baba Yaga(and their relation to Veles), rather than Koschei currently.

I hope this makes sense, still early for me.

 
Yeah, that's a lot of the problem I'm having. I'm not sure what's actually pulled from sources and what's basically UPG. The lack of primary sources makes the academic in me more than a bit annoyed, though at least I'm not the kind who feels the need to be a recon.

Baba Yaga is pretty awesome in my books. I just seem to have a thing for undead sorcerers rather than witches.

Laveth

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Re: Veles
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2013, 10:47:47 pm »
Quote from: Tom;133675
I was told recently that there's now a Baltic and Slavic Paganism SIG and since I've been working with what seems to be Veles relatively recently (though I only realized it was him several months after I first started), I thought I'd come here and ask if any of you guys have any good resources on him.

Most of what I have that isn't UPG is from various websites which may or may not be the most reliable (I know wikipedia can be problematic) and I would like to be directed to sources.

Also I'm interested in talking with others who have worked with him.

I've also been doing stuff in relation to Russian folklore, primarily with the figure Koschei, which actually is partly how I ended up working with Veles.

 
There's another thread in this same SIG that lists a fair few online references, that could be a good place to start.

Could you maybe share a bit of what you already know? Have you dug into any of the folklore? Is it a general overview you're looking for or something specific? :)

Laveth

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Re: Veles
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2013, 09:51:23 pm »
Quote from: Tom;133711
Yeah, that's a lot of the problem I'm having. I'm not sure what's actually pulled from sources and what's basically UPG. The lack of primary sources makes the academic in me more than a bit annoyed, though at least I'm not the kind who feels the need to be a recon.

Baba Yaga is pretty awesome in my books. I just seem to have a thing for undead sorcerers rather than witches.

I actually am the type who has that recon bend. :P

So here's the skinny. Veles is not in my pantheon, but I do have some notes and some references saved that include him because there is a lot of crossover with certain references and territories (and lazy scholars who just slap Polish and Russian lore over the entirety of the Slavic regions and consider them identical).

So here's a bit of what I've been able to dig out of my archives.

Veles

Veles is a horned god who is sometimes depicted as having a snake tail or as appearing in the form of a serpent/dragon. He is associated with cattle, herders, horses, and the underground (the underworld-caves, wells, and other cracks in the earth were thought to be a direct route to the underworld). He is also the god of wealth, poets, art, and witchcraft (Veles was the first to learn magic from the witch). On the tree of life, Veles is the serpent who winds around the roots as a serpent (whereas Perun is the falcon in the branches-myth dating back to at least 1700-1100 BC).

While Perun gave us the gift of language, Veles is responsible for teaching us to write.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sure you are aware of the Veles v. Perun myth. But if not, it's something I would strongly encourage you to look into (I'm also mentioning it in case anyone else curious about Veles visits this thread).

He is also called Volos. Sometimes appears as, or is associated with, the bull.

Here are some more links:


http://www.pantheon.org/articles/v/veles.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20040923043708/http://www.sunbirds.com/readings/index.shtml

http://www.zeluna.net/russian-fairy-tale-bozalosc.html

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31996325/Encyclopedia-of-Russian-and-Slavic-Myth-and-Legend

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/sfs/index.htm

http://epika.org/house-of-mythology/15-veles

http://www.dumka.us/Brownie.html


Hope it helps a bit. :)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey I found my non-Slovene deity folder! :D

Here you go.

Volos/Veles

Associations:
•   Underworld
•   Earth
•   Water
•   Dragons
•   Protector of flocks & (horned) cattle
•   Patron of trade, divination, the arts, & poetry
•   Music, musicians, wealth, trickery
•   magic
•   Patron of the people (vs. the prince and soldiers)
•   Patron of poetry and eloquence.
•   Associated with the chthonic forces and the Other (sepulchral) world.

AKA: Volos, Walgino, Weles

Miscellaneous:
•    Oaths were sworn in his name.
•   The wolf-headed
•   The huge serpent who dwells in the water
•   An enemy of Perun
•   God of Druids
•   God of secret
•   Keeper of the passageway from the world of yav (middle world where we live) to the Prav (righteous higher world of spirits) and Nav (lower world).
•   Beef is not eaten on Feb 12 due to the ritual fight of Veles & Marena.
•   Is somewhat speculated to have had a partially serpentine form with the horns of a bull/ram or other domesticated herbivore, and having a long beard.
•   Often depicted as a huge serpent coiling around the roots of the living world tree, ruling the world of the dead.
•   Festivals in honor of him were held in winter, when the time was coming to the very end of world order and chaos was growing stronger with the borders between the worlds of the living and dead fading- ancestral spirits would return amongst the living. This marked the celebration of Velja noc (Great Night), now called Koleda (mix of carnival and Halloween, occurs between xmas to the end of February).
•   . Young men, known as koledari or vucari would dress long coats of sheep's wool and don grotesque masks, roaming around villages in groups and raising a lot of noise. They sang songs saying they travelled a long way, and they are all wet and muddy, an allusion of the wet underworld of Veles from which they came as ghosts of dead. The master of any house they visited would welcome them warmly and presented them with gifts. This is an example of Slavic shamanism, which also indicates Veles was a god of magic and wealth. The gifts given to koledari were probably believed to be passed onto him (which makes him very much like a dragon hoarding treasure), thus ensuring good fortune and wealth for the house and family through entire year.
•   Regularly sent spirits of the dead into the living world as his heralds.
•   As seen in descriptions from the Primary Chronicle, by angering Veles one would be stricken by diseases.
•   He punishes oath breakers with diseases.
•   Worship of Veles must be kept separate from Perun.
•   Respect is necessary, even amongst fire.
•   Leads people through the winter hardships, protects cattle, chases away illness, and gives people the strength to fight through the coming frost.

Croatians celebrating Veles:







Sorry if the text is a little hard to follow, I tend to shorten my notes to the bare essentials to save on time and space. :)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 12:17:57 am by Laveth »

Tom

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Re: Veles
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2013, 07:11:20 pm »
Quote from: Laveth;134008
I actually am the type who has that recon bend. :P


I worded that poorly. I have no problem with recons, it's just that while I would love to be one, I would get all tied up with trying to be right and worrying about getting things wrong to the point that it would stop being uncomfortable for me. At least that's what I discovered when I got into Heathenry.

But I like to know what the recon side of things are because usually that's what first informs my practice because I don't like doing things without thinking them through first.

Quote from: Laveth;134008
So here's the skinny. Veles is not in my pantheon, but I do have some notes and some references saved that include him because there is a lot of crossover with certain references and territories (and lazy scholars who just slap Polish and Russian lore over the entirety of the Slavic regions and consider them identical).

So here's a bit of what I've been able to dig out of my archives.

Veles

Veles is a horned god who is sometimes depicted as having a snake tail or as appearing in the form of a serpent/dragon. He is associated with cattle, herders, horses, and the underground (the underworld-caves, wells, and other cracks in the earth were thought to be a direct route to the underworld). He is also the god of wealth, poets, art, and witchcraft (Veles was the first to learn magic from the witch). On the tree of life, Veles is the serpent who winds around the roots as a serpent (whereas Perun is the falcon in the branches-myth dating back to at least 1700-1100 BC).

While Perun gave us the gift of language, Veles is responsible for teaching us to write.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sure you are aware of the Veles v. Perun myth. But if not, it's something I would strongly encourage you to look into (I'm also mentioning it in case anyone else curious about Veles visits this thread).

He is also called Volos. Sometimes appears as, or is associated with, the bull.

Here are some more links:


http://www.pantheon.org/articles/v/veles.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20040923043708/http://www.sunbirds.com/readings/index.shtml

http://www.zeluna.net/russian-fairy-tale-bozalosc.html

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31996325/Encyclopedia-of-Russian-and-Slavic-Myth-and-Legend

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/sfs/index.htm

http://epika.org/house-of-mythology/15-veles

http://www.dumka.us/Brownie.html


Hope it helps a bit. :)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey I found my non-Slovene deity folder! :D

Here you go.

Volos/Veles

Associations:
•   Underworld
•   Earth
•   Water
•   Dragons
•   Protector of flocks & (horned) cattle
•   Patron of trade, divination, the arts, & poetry
•   Music, musicians, wealth, trickery
•   magic
•   Patron of the people (vs. the prince and soldiers)
•   Patron of poetry and eloquence.
•   Associated with the chthonic forces and the Other (sepulchral) world.

AKA: Volos, Walgino, Weles

Miscellaneous:
•    Oaths were sworn in his name.
•   The wolf-headed
•   The huge serpent who dwells in the water
•   An enemy of Perun
•   God of Druids
•   God of secret
•   Keeper of the passageway from the world of yav (middle world where we live) to the Prav (righteous higher world of spirits) and Nav (lower world).
•   Beef is not eaten on Feb 12 due to the ritual fight of Veles & Marena.
•   Is somewhat speculated to have had a partially serpentine form with the horns of a bull/ram or other domesticated herbivore, and having a long beard.
•   Often depicted as a huge serpent coiling around the roots of the living world tree, ruling the world of the dead.
•   Festivals in honor of him were held in winter, when the time was coming to the very end of world order and chaos was growing stronger with the borders between the worlds of the living and dead fading- ancestral spirits would return amongst the living. This marked the celebration of Velja noc (Great Night), now called Koleda (mix of carnival and Halloween, occurs between xmas to the end of February).
•   . Young men, known as koledari or vucari would dress long coats of sheep's wool and don grotesque masks, roaming around villages in groups and raising a lot of noise. They sang songs saying they travelled a long way, and they are all wet and muddy, an allusion of the wet underworld of Veles from which they came as ghosts of dead. The master of any house they visited would welcome them warmly and presented them with gifts. This is an example of Slavic shamanism, which also indicates Veles was a god of magic and wealth. The gifts given to koledari were probably believed to be passed onto him (which makes him very much like a dragon hoarding treasure), thus ensuring good fortune and wealth for the house and family through entire year.
•   Regularly sent spirits of the dead into the living world as his heralds.
•   As seen in descriptions from the Primary Chronicle, by angering Veles one would be stricken by diseases.
•   He punishes oath breakers with diseases.
•   Worship of Veles must be kept separate from Perun.
•   Respect is necessary, even amongst fire.
•   Leads people through the winter hardships, protects cattle, chases away illness, and gives people the strength to fight through the coming frost.

...

Sorry if the text is a little hard to follow, I tend to shorten my notes to the bare essentials to save on time and space. :)

 
Thanks for the notes! It really helps!

What's here matches up with what I have read and have gotten in my dealings with him. I was worrying because most of the things I found online seemed to only really talk about his association with cattle and wealth and didn't speak about the other things you mention here because I had come across him first via his patronage of magicians.

I have been wondering a lot more about the festivals associated with him too.

And I do find it interesting that people associate him with writing as I found him through my fiction writing in the first place.

I was also aware of the Veles vs. Perun myth.

Sorry that I didn't get around to replying to the first post right away. I was having trouble finding the words to reply for some reason. I'll definitely have to check out those links over the weekend.

Thank you again!

savveir

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Re: Veles
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2013, 09:26:16 pm »
Quote from: Laveth;134008
snip
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey I found my non-Slovene deity folder! :D

Here you go.

Volos/Veles

Associations:
•   Underworld
•   Earth
•   Water
•   Dragons
•   Protector of flocks & (horned) cattle
•   Patron of trade, divination, the arts, & poetry
•   Music, musicians, wealth, trickery
•   magic
•   Patron of the people (vs. the prince and soldiers)
•   Patron of poetry and eloquence.
•   Associated with the chthonic forces and the Other (sepulchral) world.

AKA: Volos, Walgino, Weles

Miscellaneous:
•    Oaths were sworn in his name.
•   The wolf-headed
•   The huge serpent who dwells in the water
•   An enemy of Perun
•   God of Druids
•   God of secret
•   Keeper of the passageway from the world of yav (middle world where we live) to the Prav (righteous higher world of spirits) and Nav (lower world).
•   Beef is not eaten on Feb 12 due to the ritual fight of Veles & Marena.
•   Is somewhat speculated to have had a partially serpentine form with the horns of a bull/ram or other domesticated herbivore, and having a long beard.
•   Often depicted as a huge serpent coiling around the roots of the living world tree, ruling the world of the dead.
•   Festivals in honor of him were held in winter, when the time was coming to the very end of world order and chaos was growing stronger with the borders between the worlds of the living and dead fading- ancestral spirits would return amongst the living. This marked the celebration of Velja noc (Great Night), now called Koleda (mix of carnival and Halloween, occurs between xmas to the end of February).
•   . Young men, known as koledari or vucari would dress long coats of sheep's wool and don grotesque masks, roaming around villages in groups and raising a lot of noise. They sang songs saying they travelled a long way, and they are all wet and muddy, an allusion of the wet underworld of Veles from which they came as ghosts of dead. The master of any house they visited would welcome them warmly and presented them with gifts. This is an example of Slavic shamanism, which also indicates Veles was a god of magic and wealth. The gifts given to koledari were probably believed to be passed onto him (which makes him very much like a dragon hoarding treasure), thus ensuring good fortune and wealth for the house and family through entire year.
•   Regularly sent spirits of the dead into the living world as his heralds.
•   As seen in descriptions from the Primary Chronicle, by angering Veles one would be stricken by diseases.
•   He punishes oath breakers with diseases.
•   Worship of Veles must be kept separate from Perun.
•   Respect is necessary, even amongst fire.
•   Leads people through the winter hardships, protects cattle, chases away illness, and gives people the strength to fight through the coming frost.


Sorry if the text is a little hard to follow, I tend to shorten my notes to the bare essentials to save on time and space. :)


Out of curiosity, what is this info based on? UPG? other sources? I guess I just like to know all the things :)
"I give myself very good advice, but I very seldom follow it."
-Lewis Carroll

Tom

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Veles
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2013, 07:01:50 am »
Quote from: savvy;134124
Out of curiosity, what is this info based on? UPG? other sources? I guess I just like to know all the things :)

Actually,  I'm curious too. Particularly since while Veles's association with writing intrigues me, I also know that historically, writing was introduced, at least to places that use Cyrillic, by Greek monks.

Laveth

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Re: Veles
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2013, 11:54:48 pm »
Quote from: Tom;134107
I worded that poorly. I have no problem with recons, it's just that while I would love to be one, I would get all tied up with trying to be right and worrying about getting things wrong to the point that it would stop being uncomfortable for me. At least that's what I discovered when I got into Heathenry.

I have been wondering a lot more about the festivals associated with him too.

Sorry that I didn't get around to replying to the first post right away. I was having trouble finding the words to reply for some reason. I'll definitely have to check out those links over the weekend.

Thank you again!

 
Oh I never interpreted it as you having a problem with recons. More like... "omg finally a reason for my obsessive need of documenting and combining all the info I've ever been able to get my hands on." :D I'm glad it was useful. :)


And for the other question, this info is not UPG based. As aforementioned, Veles isn't in my personal pantheon and I do what I can to make sure that my references are as scholarly as possible. Granted, internet searches aren't always reliable in that way but I do make sure that I can cross-reference everything I've picked up to make sure it's at least reflected in other sources as well.

Jack

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Re: Veles
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2013, 12:23:56 am »
Quote from: Laveth;134250
And for the other question, this info is not UPG based. As aforementioned, Veles isn't in my personal pantheon and I do what I can to make sure that my references are as scholarly as possible. Granted, internet searches aren't always reliable in that way but I do make sure that I can cross-reference everything I've picked up to make sure it's at least reflected in other sources as well.

 
It would be super helpful if you actually listed what came from which sources so we can go ahead and do our own digging to complement your work. Do you know which of the info you posted came from where?
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Laveth

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Re: Veles
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2013, 12:27:10 am »
Quote from: Jack;134259
It would be super helpful if you actually listed what came from which sources so we can go ahead and do our own digging to complement your work. Do you know which of the info you posted came from where?

As I said, it's a compilation of my notes. I already linked a few resources, the rest are scattered about across 3 different computers, some printings, and about 100 odd favorites that may or may not be in English. :)

Otherwise *points at big list of references in reference thread* dig away. :)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 12:37:53 am by Laveth »

savveir

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Re: Veles
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2013, 12:40:03 am »
Quote from: Laveth;134261
As I said, it's a compilation of my notes. I already linked a few resources, the rest are scattered about across 3 different computers, some printings, and about 100 odd favorites that may or may not be in English. :)

Otherwise *points at big list of references in reference thread* dig away. :)

 
oh well, that's unfortunate. Maybe I'll come across the relevant information in my own digging, I'll post if I find anything.
"I give myself very good advice, but I very seldom follow it."
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Laveth

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Re: Veles
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2013, 12:43:53 am »
Quote from: savvy;134262
oh well, that's unfortunate. Maybe I'll come across the relevant information in my own digging, I'll post if I find anything.

 
Sorry dear, I don't write research papers for my own benefit anymore. :) Unfortunately, keeping tabs on the places that I find interesting is the extent of my bibliographies these days. If I pick up anymore resources I'll add them to the reference thread. Been meaning to bulk up that reading list anyway when I get some down-time.

savveir

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Re: Veles
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2013, 01:40:43 am »
Quote from: Laveth;134008

snip

 
I forgot I had this sitting in my bookmarks, it's a complete PDF of The Encyclopedia of Russian and Slavic Myth and Legend
http://www.bridgetorussian.com/files/Encyclopedia_Russian___Slavic_Myth_Legend.pdf
"I give myself very good advice, but I very seldom follow it."
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Jack

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Re: Veles
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2013, 01:59:59 am »
Quote from: Laveth;134261
As I said, it's a compilation of my notes. I already linked a few resources, the rest are scattered about across 3 different computers, some printings, and about 100 odd favorites that may or may not be in English. :)

Otherwise *points at big list of references in reference thread* dig away. :)

 
The reason I asked is because I'm having trouble with some of your links

http://web.archive.org/web/20040923043708/http://www.sunbirds.com/readings/index.shtml and http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/sfs/index.htm are both collections of links - the latter is a full book. None of the chapter/story headings mention Veles or Volos by name, so it's very hard to figure out where I should be looking. I was hoping you might be able to point me in the right direction.

http://www.zeluna.net/russian-fairy-tale-bozalosc.html - this is an article about the Bozalosc, about a paragraph long, and I'm not understanding the connection, so any insight you can give me would be helpful.

http://epika.org/house-of-mythology/15-veles - this one refers to a fight between Veles and Marena, rather than Perun. Have you heard much reference to that elsewhere? It's a comparatively new one on me and Google's turning up very little help.
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