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Author Topic: Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices  (Read 10216 times)

Nomad of Nowhere

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Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices
« on: August 05, 2011, 02:39:49 am »
This is a bit of a continuation of a previous thread on the old forum. I would like to talk about Slavic paganism in general, but also to what extent local pre-Christian beliefs and traditions can be teased out from what remains of eastern European lore. Even when it comes to fairy tales, I think there are some remnants of this. It can't be denied that there are certain themes that show up all over the region, and as such, are probably quite old. I also think that to a degree, looking at Baltic paganism can be of help.

For instance, in one story I discussed with Kayah is the Glass Mountain. In it, the hero climbs up a glass mountain with a lynx's claws. There, he discovers a tree bearing golden apples (which are another motif showing up in multiple eastern European tales. They show up in stories all over Europe, but particularly in Slavic folklore) and a number of other supernatural things. This echoes a myth written of by Gintaras Beresnevicius, for the Lithuanian Institute of Culture and Arts.

"The cosmic mountain, on the top of which Dievas or Perkunas lives, is the centre of the afterlife. The heavenly abode of the dead is right behind it or at its top, where it is warm and light, a wonderful garden. Sometimes it is believed that in climbing that mountain souls have to use their own nails and those of predatory animals that are burnt in the funeral pyre."

Does anyone agree with this method of analysis? There are obviously pitfalls, but at the same time, there is a huge treasure trove of folklore that is no less pagan for being difficult to interpret. Few deny that it contains pre-Christian elements.

There are also many interesting practices. For instance, the Russian church prohibited praying to fire and calling it "Svarogich", and this practice seems to have survived even up to the 1700's, in the form of Russian spells invoking "Tsar Flame" and worshiping friction fire. It also seems to have been common to keep a snake in the house for good luck in countless Slavic countries, and even Romania. I've been studying this stuff forever it seems, and if anyone's interested, I'd welcome any feedback or other opinions. In my own opinion, there is plenty of Slavic paganism left over, it's just not in the mythological format that many people are used to studying, and most people who write on the subject don't have the patience for combing through this stuff. Thank you.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 02:45:40 am by Nomad of Nowhere »

Nomad of Nowhere

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Re: Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2011, 04:14:54 am »
Quote from: Nomad of Nowhere;10743
This echoes a myth written of by Gintaras Beresnevicius, for the Lithuanian Institute of Culture and Arts.

"The cosmic mountain, on the top of which Dievas or Perkunas lives, is the centre of the afterlife. The heavenly abode of the dead is right behind it or at its top, where it is warm and light, a wonderful garden. Sometimes it is believed that in climbing that mountain souls have to use their own nails and those of predatory animals that are burnt in the funeral pyre."

Regarding the claws of "predatory animals", the lynx is actually specified. According to "Foreword to the past: a cultural history of the Baltic people By Endre Bojtár" When Grand Duke Sventaragis of Lithuania died in 1271, he was cremated with the claws of a lynx so that he could climb the steep mountain upon which "God sits in his throne" in the afterlife... although it seems bears were also used.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 04:16:16 am by Nomad of Nowhere »

Karhunvatukka

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Re: Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2011, 09:51:43 am »
Quote from: Nomad of Nowhere;10743
I would like to talk about Slavic paganism in general, but also to what extent local pre-Christian beliefs and traditions can be teased out from what remains of eastern European lore.

 
I have no data to add, but I think this is fascinating . . . please continue.

catja6

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Re: Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2011, 12:20:47 pm »
Quote from: Nomad of Nowhere;10743
***


There is actually a ton of scholarship on Slavic paganism and folk belief; most of it is in Russian, however. The best and most accessible source for information is Russian Folk Belief, by Linda Ivanits.  There's also Andreas Johns' book on Baba Yaga, which has some good information, but is too psychoanalytic for my taste -- Johns was a student of Alan Dundes, who was basically the only folklorist who could consistently get away with psychoanalysis; Johns isn't nearly as careful.  But with that caveat in mind, it's still got a lot of useful material.  I also love Ryan's The Bathhouse at Midnight, on Russian folk magic, but that's definitely advanced reading -- don't tackle it until you've properly digested the Ivanits, at the very least.

Bugscuttle

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Re: Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2011, 09:33:26 pm »
Quote from: catja6;10789
There is actually a ton of scholarship on Slavic paganism and folk belief; most of it is in Russian, however. The best and most accessible source for information is Russian Folk Belief, by Linda Ivanits.  There's also Andreas Johns' book on Baba Yaga, which has some good information, but is too psychoanalytic for my taste -- Johns was a student of Alan Dundes, who was basically the only folklorist who could consistently get away with psychoanalysis; Johns isn't nearly as careful.  But with that caveat in mind, it's still got a lot of useful material.  I also love Ryan's The Bathhouse at Midnight, on Russian folk magic, but that's definitely advanced reading -- don't tackle it until you've properly digested the Ivanits, at the very least.

 
I would love to learn more about the Paganism of the Slavs!  I am of Polish/Bohemian ancestry and know next to nothing about it.  I have only what little information available online - and most of that is about the Russians' ancient practices.  There was a site on Polish Paganism, but I don't remember seeing much documentation...I've lost the link since then.
     I'd be very interested in whatever you posted.  I'd also be interested in a reading list of Englsh language books on the subject.

Nomad of Nowhere

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Re: Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2011, 02:18:25 am »
Quote from: catja6;10789
There is actually a ton of scholarship on Slavic paganism and folk belief; most of it is in Russian, however. The best and most accessible source for information is Russian Folk Belief, by Linda Ivanits.  There's also Andreas Johns' book on Baba Yaga, which has some good information, but is too psychoanalytic for my taste -- Johns was a student of Alan Dundes, who was basically the only folklorist who could consistently get away with psychoanalysis; Johns isn't nearly as careful.  But with that caveat in mind, it's still got a lot of useful material.  I also love Ryan's The Bathhouse at Midnight, on Russian folk magic, but that's definitely advanced reading -- don't tackle it until you've properly digested the Ivanits, at the very least.

I picked up Bathhouse at Midnight about a year ago, and I enjoyed it quite a bit. I also recall agreeing very much with the methodology of Russian Folk Belief, although I have not had it on hand for some time like some of my other books. However, given the size of the material to sift through, I'm rarely fully satisfied. I really do recommend combing through the folklore yourself to some degree, and just seeing if you find anything interesting or familiar, just because there is so much folklore from the countless Slavic countries. (that is, after you've read up on other stuff to compare it too.) I also liked Bulgarian Folk Customs, my Mercia Mcdermott, and Forests of the Vampire- a thin, easy read that contains more substance than you'd think just by glancing at it.  I also agree with many of the writings by Roman Zaroff, or at least he shows more sense than many others.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 02:25:58 am by Nomad of Nowhere »

Storie

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Re: Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2011, 10:57:53 pm »
Quote from: Bugscuttle;10871
I would love to learn more about the Paganism of the Slavs!  I am of Polish/Bohemian ancestry and know next to nothing about it.


I'm new here, but thought I'd chime in. :)
 
I was born in Poland. Slavic paganism, specifically in Poland, is an interest of mine too. I have not been able to discover much either. I think, part of the problem, is that Poland accepted Christianity sometime in 966 (this is a very general date, I forgot the specific one). On top of that, Poland has been through quite a few wars. WWII pretty much destroyed most pagan sites, statues, artifacts. Then, of course, at one point in history, Poland wasn't even on the map as other countries divided it up between them.

These are the bits I have (excuse the lack of Polish accent marks; I don't know how to make them on this computer):

Kleczanow Wood in Poland has burial mounds. 36 or 37 of them, I believe. It's the only one of its kind in Poland, and it was probably a sacred place in pagan times.

There is a town in Poland called Poganowo, which (according to some) was a place of pagan worship. It's abandoned now, but digging has unearthed a few pagan elements (stone circles, a few statues).

There is a statue of Swietowit in Poland, as well as several smaller ones in museums.

There are a few rituals/superstitions still current in Poland. A black cat crossing one's path is considered unlucky. To ward of the bad luck, people take their index finger and middle finger, and point them at the ground. Letting the bad luck be absorbed into the ground, as opposed to into their lives. My Catholic family still does this!

Young girls in the country will drip candle wax in a glass of water for divination. Same with herbs thrown into a fire - see what shapes the smoke makes.

There are pisanki at Easter.

There is the celebration "Zielone Swiatki. Which is, essentially, a celebration of Spring, even a worship of spring. In rituals, this translates to a worship of trees or tree spirits. Tree branches budding were one of the first signs of spring, so there is an association of power, fertility, virility, etc.

There is something called "the magic belt of Poland." It sounds kind of cheesy in English. It was a belt that had symbols on it. Some of the symbols were, apparently, supposed to be from folk practices. Another theory is that some of the symbols were, supposedly, the same ones as on the key of Solomon. This belt could have been Christian magic. Or, it could have had had symbols much older. However, this belt hasn't been seen since WWII. It was on display in a museum in Warsaw, but disappeared during the war. Probably burned or otherwise destroyed. The belt was supposed to confer protection on the wearer.

Poland, of course, has the Baba Yaga stories.

Nomad of Nowhere: I am going to check my Polish fairy tales book now. Your ideas have me intrigued. I've never tried to read the fairy tales through such an interpretive lens. I'll come back to post more once I've done this.

Wonderful thread, by the way. I'm glad I found it!

diana_rajchel

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Re: Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2011, 04:44:19 pm »
Quote from: Storie;12966
I'm new here, but thought I'd chime in. :)
 
I was born in Poland. Slavic paganism, specifically in Poland, is an interest of mine too. I have not been able to discover much either. I think, part of the problem, is that Poland accepted Christianity sometime in 966 (this is a very general date, I forgot the specific one). On top of that, Poland has been through quite a few wars. WWII pretty much destroyed most pagan sites, statues, artifacts. Then, of course, at one point in history, Poland wasn't even on the map as other countries divided it up between them.

These are the bits I have (excuse the lack of Polish accent marks; I don't know how to make them on this computer):

Kleczanow Wood in Poland has burial mounds. 36 or 37 of them, I believe. It's the only one of its kind in Poland, and it was probably a sacred place in pagan times.

There is a town in Poland called Poganowo, which (according to some) was a place of pagan worship. It's abandoned now, but digging has unearthed a few pagan elements (stone circles, a few statues).

There is a statue of Swietowit in Poland, as well as several smaller ones in museums.

There are a few rituals/superstitions still current in Poland. A black cat crossing one's path is considered unlucky. To ward of the bad luck, people take their index finger and middle finger, and point them at the ground. Letting the bad luck be absorbed into the ground, as opposed to into their lives. My Catholic family still does this!

Young girls in the country will drip candle wax in a glass of water for divination. Same with herbs thrown into a fire - see what shapes the smoke makes.

There are pisanki at Easter.

There is the celebration "Zielone Swiatki. Which is, essentially, a celebration of Spring, even a worship of spring. In rituals, this translates to a worship of trees or tree spirits. Tree branches budding were one of the first signs of spring, so there is an association of power, fertility, virility, etc.

There is something called "the magic belt of Poland." It sounds kind of cheesy in English. It was a belt that had symbols on it. Some of the symbols were, apparently, supposed to be from folk practices. Another theory is that some of the symbols were, supposedly, the same ones as on the key of Solomon. This belt could have been Christian magic. Or, it could have had had symbols much older. However, this belt hasn't been seen since WWII. It was on display in a museum in Warsaw, but disappeared during the war. Probably burned or otherwise destroyed. The belt was supposed to confer protection on the wearer.

Poland, of course, has the Baba Yaga stories.

Nomad of Nowhere: I am going to check my Polish fairy tales book now. Your ideas have me intrigued. I've never tried to read the fairy tales through such an interpretive lens. I'll come back to post more once I've done this.

Wonderful thread, by the way. I'm glad I found it!

 
I just want to chime in that I'm glad this thread is around. I have Polish ancestry, but I'm the product of post WWII New World US Polish relocation - much is lost, as modern Polish see American Polish as a bit... quaint, I think is the polite word.

I've read Slavic Sorcery by Kenneth Johnson, but I have no sense as to its accuracy at all. I also have the benefit of a Russian art museum in my town; it has clues, in its way, but they're Russian clues, not Polish. I get a vague sense of animism, that water spirits were hugely important, and that if they really wanted to, the religious Pagans of the day could have easily syncretized their beliefs with whatever the church demanded. But it's all vague and non-academic. I just know that putting sheets on the mirrors when somebody died was a first order of business in my house.

Nomad of Nowhere

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Re: Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2011, 06:21:27 pm »
Quote from: diana_rajchel;13866
I just want to chime in that I'm glad this thread is around. I have Polish ancestry, but I'm the product of post WWII New World US Polish relocation - much is lost, as modern Polish see American Polish as a bit... quaint, I think is the polite word.

I've read Slavic Sorcery by Kenneth Johnson, but I have no sense as to its accuracy at all. I also have the benefit of a Russian art museum in my town; it has clues, in its way, but they're Russian clues, not Polish. I get a vague sense of animism, that water spirits were hugely important, and that if they really wanted to, the religious Pagans of the day could have easily syncretized their beliefs with whatever the church demanded. But it's all vague and non-academic. I just know that putting sheets on the mirrors when somebody died was a first order of business in my house.

 It seems that we have a lot of people interested in Polish paganism in particular. I can relate- my entire father's side of the family is Polish, at least as far as I can verify. It's worth pointing out though, that Poland was Christianized earlier, and much more thoroughly than Russia was for a long time. Most written records on pre-Christian Slavs speak generally of either Kievan Rus, or the Wends, and almost nothing on the Poles. Arguably Wendish paganism would be closer to Polish, but even that is speculative. However, Poland and Russia do certain have pagan traditions in common, such as Kupala celebrations and the drowning of Marzanna dolls. Personally, I don't have a problem focusing on what traditions the Slavic countries share in common, rather than just one country, but maybe that's partially because my ancestry is from more than one Slavic country.

Also, for the record, from what I have read of "Slavic Sorcery" on Google books, it's to be taken with a grain of salt.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 06:24:35 pm by Nomad of Nowhere »

Kayah

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Re: Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2011, 01:13:06 am »
Quote from: Nomad of Nowhere;10743

For instance, in one story I discussed with Kayah is the Glass Mountain. In it, the hero climbs up a glass mountain with a lynx's claws. There, he discovers a tree bearing golden apples (which are another motif showing up in multiple eastern European tales. They show up in stories all over Europe, but particularly in Slavic folklore) and a number of other supernatural things. This echoes a myth written of by Gintaras Beresnevicius, for the Lithuanian Institute of Culture and Arts.

"The cosmic mountain, on the top of which Dievas or Perkunas lives, is the centre of the afterlife. The heavenly abode of the dead is right behind it or at its top, where it is warm and light, a wonderful garden. Sometimes it is believed that in climbing that mountain souls have to use their own nails and those of predatory animals that are burnt in the funeral pyre."

Does anyone agree with this method of analysis? There are obviously pitfalls, but at the same time, there is a huge treasure trove of folklore that is no less pagan for being difficult to interpret. Few deny that it contains pre-Christian elements.

 
I dug up a recent edition of folktales and re-read The Glass Mountain. Interestingly - it had very little in common with what you describe!

The story focused on three brothers, how their father died and the youngest did the entirety of the sitting-by-the-dead-for-three-nights thing. A dwarf would come out of a tree with a horse on each night, first night silver, second night gold, and third night a small shaggy pony that would do "whatever you asked it to".

When the part of the princess in the tower on a glass mountain came around, the first two brothers set out immediately - the third much later. There is a line describing how some of the knights that gathered under the mountain attempted to use eagle talons as climbing tools, but none succeeded.

I can only come to the conclusion that the tale has been reworked in a very major way from the version you have. I have several other books of legends and "klechdy" and will see if The Glass Mountain is in any of them. This is quite curious.

On another note - have you ever heard of the Legend of the Golden Duck, or the Warsaw Basilisk.. or.. the myth of the founding of Poland, Russia and Chech - I forget the title but it's the one with Lech, Chech and Rus, and how they all go in three different directions..

Just mentioning these as they are my favorite tales.

Kayah

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Re: Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2011, 01:18:53 am »
Quote from: diana_rajchel;13866
I get a vague sense of animism, that water spirits were hugely important, and that if they really wanted to, the religious Pagans of the day could have easily syncretized their beliefs with whatever the church demanded. But it's all vague and non-academic. I just know that putting sheets on the mirrors when somebody died was a first order of business in my house.

 
The animism - this is something I have noticed when I briefly looked into Polish Heraldry. It is completely different from any basis of heraldry in Western Europe. It doesn't follow the same rules. There are symbols unknown to anywhere else.

I haven't read up on this in a very long time, and would probably be very hard pressed to find any English sources, but I do remember reading that the heraldry was a very rigid system in its own right where it came to picking the animal that you would have.
If you came from a particular family that had, let's say, a bear - this was your animal. You couldn't choose a swan, or a horse. I think in this, Slavic tribes were closer to North America's natives, rather than any other Pagan religions in Europe or Middle Asia.

Nomad of Nowhere

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Re: Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2011, 02:43:59 am »
Quote from: Kayah;14699
I dug up a recent edition of folktales and re-read The Glass Mountain. Interestingly - it had very little in common with what you describe!

The story focused on three brothers, how their father died and the youngest did the entirety of the sitting-by-the-dead-for-three-nights thing. A dwarf would come out of a tree with a horse on each night, first night silver, second night gold, and third night a small shaggy pony that would do "whatever you asked it to".

When the part of the princess in the tower on a glass mountain came around, the first two brothers set out immediately - the third much later. There is a line describing how some of the knights that gathered under the mountain attempted to use eagle talons as climbing tools, but none succeeded.

I can only come to the conclusion that the tale has been reworked in a very major way from the version you have. I have several other books of legends and "klechdy" and will see if The Glass Mountain is in any of them. This is quite curious.

On another note - have you ever heard of the Legend of the Golden Duck, or the Warsaw Basilisk.. or.. the myth of the founding of Poland, Russia and Chech - I forget the title but it's the one with Lech, Chech and Rus, and how they all go in three different directions..

Just mentioning these as they are my favorite tales.

 
Well, that's disappointing. However, it wouldn't be the first time that I've discovered multiple versions of the same tale. In fact, my experience is that most Slavic fairy tales have some variation. It's interesting that your version mentions eagle talons. In the book that Catja6 mentions, Bathhouse at Midnight, there is a funerary tradition involving eagle talons. The book says that some Russians would bury people with eagle talons so that they could climb out of the grave on judgment day. It struck me as similar to the Lithuanian custom, except that it specified talons instead of claws. Just some food for thought.  

I like the story of Lech, Chech, and Rus. It shows that the Slavic people were aware of a kinship very early on.

Quote from: Kayah;14702
I think in this, Slavic tribes were closer to North America's natives, rather than any other Pagan religions in Europe or Middle Asia.

 
Animism is pretty common though. The belief in local spirits attached to bodies of water, trees, and various other features of the land is common to all of Europe, and has never been exclusive to polytheism.

The brief writings of the 6th century Byzantine scholar Procopius on the Slavic religion seem to support mixed animism and polytheism. He said they worshiped the creator of lightning, but also rivers and "nymphs"- practices which are animistic, but not necessarily un-European. Procopius himself was probably comparing the Slavic beliefs to Greek beliefs in nymphs inhabiting rivers, as well as other locations or parts of the land.

diana_rajchel

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Re: Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2011, 06:31:46 pm »
Quote from: Kayah;14702
The animism - this is something I have noticed when I briefly looked into Polish Heraldry. It is completely different from any basis of heraldry in Western Europe. It doesn't follow the same rules. There are symbols unknown to anywhere else.


FWIW, Wikimedia Commons has or had a collection of Polish heraldry images. I don't know much about them, but I was for awhile poking at making a personal divination deck from them, if I could ever link the historic meaning to the symbol.

Kayah

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Re: Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2011, 11:34:44 pm »
Quote from: Nomad of Nowhere;14718

Animism is pretty common though. The belief in local spirits attached to bodies of water, trees, and various other features of the land is common to all of Europe, and has never been exclusive to polytheism.

The brief writings of the 6th century Byzantine scholar Procopius on the Slavic religion seem to support mixed animism and polytheism. He said they worshiped the creator of lightning, but also rivers and "nymphs"- practices which are animistic, but not necessarily un-European. Procopius himself was probably comparing the Slavic beliefs to Greek beliefs in nymphs inhabiting rivers, as well as other locations or parts of the land.


To clarify - I meant that the type of tribal animism that seemed to be used by Slavic tribes even prior to any adoption of Christianity or even consolidation as any larger countries, were closer to Native American tribes than any other animism I know of. That is.. if your tribe had a bear as its totem. That was your totem also. It was what went on your shield, and even if you splintered away from your liege and your family name changed.. or you and your tribe became settlers somewhere else..  the animal on your coat of arms remained. It seems that you didn't get to pick whatever you liked as a representation as a general rule. I imagine it would have been useful in determining lineages, but I believe that a tribal animal totem was also strongly correlated.

I don't mean it in a way that ignores the other aspects of what was going on - the Gods were worshiped and honored, there were nature spirits, and other animal spirits, and a lot of stuff we don't know about. Just that, given its individuality it is likely that the coat of arms are not like western "pick a pun" type of symbolism.

Nomad of Nowhere

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Re: Remnants of Slavic Paganism in folklore or folk practices
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2011, 02:50:15 pm »
Quote from: Kayah;15446
To clarify - I meant that the type of tribal animism that seemed to be used by Slavic tribes even prior to any adoption of Christianity or even consolidation as any larger countries, were closer to Native American tribes than any other animism I know of. That is.. if your tribe had a bear as its totem. That was your totem also. It was what went on your shield, and even if you splintered away from your liege and your family name changed.. or you and your tribe became settlers somewhere else..  the animal on your coat of arms remained. It seems that you didn't get to pick whatever you liked as a representation as a general rule. I imagine it would have been useful in determining lineages, but I believe that a tribal animal totem was also strongly correlated.

I don't mean it in a way that ignores the other aspects of what was going on - the Gods were worshiped and honored, there were nature spirits, and other animal spirits, and a lot of stuff we don't know about. Just that, given its individuality it is likely that the coat of arms are not like western "pick a pun" type of symbolism.

 
I addressed nature spirits, because that is the sort of animism that is most prevalent in Eastern Europe. I have yet to hear of anything resembling animal totemism in Poland. A portion of my father's side of the family is associated with a clan that had a coat of arms, but it doesn't depict any animals. I didn't realize that animals were so common in Polish heraldry until I looked up the coat of arms for other clans. I wonder, are there are similar associations of families with animals outside of Poland?

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