The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

This is a moderately petty quibble, so consign to the bottom of the to-do list for as long as possible.

Using flag images to represent someone's home nation and language on posts is an awesome idea. Yet...it's not that I'm ashamed of being English or anything, but I am a little embarassed of the English flag (white background + St George Cross). With the exception of international sporting events, the only people who regularly use it are the extreme right wing. England-For-The-Ethnically-English types use it to represent their obnoxious ideology; and as a consequence my first reaction on seeing it next to my name was not "hurrah the flag!" but scary white folk beating up non-whites, throwing rocks through shop windows or generally peddling hateful ideas and language.

It's kinda sad that a bunch of nutters can co-opt a national symbol and turn it into something ugly. Nevertheless, seeing it makes me uncomfortable.

I changed my location to UK, favouring the Union Jack by my name. So as I said, this is not an emergency concern in any way - I'm satisfied. And I wouldn't go so far to say I find it offensive (in the way that a Swastika flag would be completely inappropriate). I just get suspicious of people connected to it outside of the World Cup*.

So - no real complaints here. I just wanted to flag it as, I guess, feedback I had on forum-things-in-general. And to add my perspective on what the English flag tends to represent in England - I wouldn't expect anyone living outside to be aware of this. I guess in extreme cases, British victims of racism could find it triggering; and it could be adopted by racist members of eCauldron - but I don't think either of these is likely enough to demand getting rid of it entirely at once. It is still the only symbol off the top of my head which represents England as a nation distinct from the UK.


I guess what I am trying to say is "eCauldron's staff seems to be predominantly US based, and this is culturally-specific information they should probably be aware of - in case they feel changes need to be made right now, or if there is ever a problem in future".

I'd also be interested to see what any other Brit folk passing through thought on this topic, in case I am just being oversensitive.


*not actually true - during World Cups, I simply get paranoid. Football fan or racist? How do you tell?! :ninja:

 
While I share your feelings about the way the St. George's cross is used by people I'm a bit confused as to what the Cauldron can do about it? Not give us the option to be 'English'? Not have a flag shown for the English nationality choice, or maybe have no flags at all? It seems a bit excessive to throw out a very useful tool, just because of a few racists, especially when racists are usually dealt with quite firmly here and don't tend to hang around for long.

If anything it seems to me us non-racists would be sensible to reclaim it and use it respectfully and well. On the other hand I consider myself British (as well as English) as I have a strong connection to Wales and at least one Irish ancestor which is why I prefer the Union Jack.

You've probably seen it on other boards because this is a standard set of flags used by country flag mods on SMF, vBulletin, phpbb, and other message boards. We've been using them since 2007 when we moved from Beehive to SMF. This is the first complaint I've seen about the English flag -- the usual complain is the lack of flags for Scotland and Wales. My answer to the latter is that if someone can give me flags for Scotland and Wales in the same style, size, and format I could add them).

 
Oddly, it didn't seem to get used when we were on SMF - it's only since the move to VB that I've been seeing it in people's profiles.

I find it a bit disturbing, given what Unmutual and others have said about its usage, that the flagset includes it but doesn't those of other components of the UK (it may be a Canadian thing, but I find Scotland's St Andrew's Cross to have far more recognizability; the St George's Cross by itself I have to mouse over every time to remember what it is).  It makes me wonder if, somewhere along the way, some of these racist types were either involved in developing the flagset, or spun a good yarn to the developers about why it ought to be included.

I may have a go at trying to track down, and tweak, suitable Scottish and Welsh (and does Northern Ireland have one that's unique to it?  Hmm, and Manx) ones for our use.  I feel quite strongly that either all should be available, or none.

Sunflower

Although I will be honest and say that I have no idea whether the Ulster banner has any connotations similar to St George's Cross.  I am aware of a variation, the Ulster Nation Flag, which has separatist connotations.

I suspect it might since it hasn't been used officially since the early 1970s.

Using flag images to represent someone's home nation and language on posts is an awesome idea.

 
I can see your concern. I just think it is a bit... odd... that there is an English flag as all the other flags available are strictly sovereign-state. England seems to be the only non-nationstate flag added.
(And it is a question how far you want to go with the non-state flags. Catalan? Flanders?)

Randall ea, just noticing:
- it lists "Yugoslavia" as a country, but that has ceased to exist. (I think that really shouldn't be listed any more)
- Sudan is split into two: North Sudan and South Sudan. I can see it not be very high up on the list of priorities, but if someone will hunt for flags anyway, I think South Sudan deserves one being a fully independent new sovereign state.

- it lists "Yugoslavia" as a country, but that has ceased to exist. (I think that really shouldn't be listed any more)
- Sudan is split into two: North Sudan and South Sudan. I can see it not be very high up on the list of priorities, but if someone will hunt for flags anyway, I think South Sudan deserves one being a fully independent new sovereign state.

This "Country Flag" mod is ancient. Yugoslavia still existed when it was created. Countries formed after 2004 or so probably aren't listed. Reality is that people aren't paying the original creator of this set of flags and its associated code to keep it up to date, so he doesn't.  There is a newer set of "flags" (with its own incompletenesses and "extra" flags -- plus they only so parts or some flags) but they are ANIMATED and you could not pay me enough to to have an animated image on every message on this board. (Okay, I'm lying, for two or three billion dollars a day, you probably could convince me... :rolleye:

Animated? :eek:

Oh my!  I can see why you've not updated it, under the circumstances!

We don't allow animated sigs or avatars because they take a while to load and are a pain for those with slow browsers.  Not to mention they are rather distracting and would divert attention away from the actual content of someone's post (which would be detrimental to a debate and discussion board such as this one).  It would make sense that animated country flags would be given the same treatment.

Oh my!  I can see why you've not updated it, under the circumstances!

The animated flags are more current (2-3 years old, I believe). But they have there own weird omissions and weird inclusions -- like the flag of the old USSR.