The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

Before I continue, I'd like to note that I'm still very much a newbie when it comes to Heathenry, and most of these questions are based off of what I've read in other forums.

First, ancestry - I know it's a very integral part of Asatru to honor your ancestors, but what about those ancestors who were not so honorable? For example, my father used to lock me in a room, alone, when I was a toddler for hours so that he could go drink at the bar. My grandmother's mother abandoned her for a week when she was only five, leaving her to take care of her younger siblings. And from the research I've done, apparently I have an ancestor, a soldier, who sold information to both sides during the Civil War. I know I wouldn't exist without them, but they're not the sort of people I'd want to praise.

The next thing I wanted to know was over distant family relations. I've read on other forums that you should put family before everything else, and that we should all live near each other. However, what if I a family member wanted to pursue a career that took them far away? My cousin wanted to become a chef and attend a college multiple states away, while I still wish to become an animator. Would it be wrong of me to leave? The job market for animation isn't good in my hometown, and I'd have to move to the other side of the country.

My last question involves children. I read that it was a heathens duty to have not just a few, but many children. Where would this leave people who did not wish to have children, or who couldn't? My uterus may be damaged, and I might not be able to have kids. Even if I could, I would only have as many that I knew I could take care of.

I'll be on vacation from tomorrow till the 15th, and my family there doesn't have internet, so I won't be able to respond until then.

Hi! I'll take a stab at your questions here with my opinions.

Sounds to me like you've got, frankly, some less than honorable ancestors in there. It may behoove you to distance yourself from their luck. We aren't all about blindly worshipping those who came before. There are times when you want as little to do as possible with some or all of them. A public disavowal of your ties to them may help to break your chain of luck from theirs.

Do keep in mind, that if you choose to break yourself from them, you will be losing any contact with the good ones that are in your past as well. I would suggest before you take such drastic measures that perhaps you should do some more genealogical research and see what else there is to offer.

As for the children thing... uh, where the hell did you read THAT? While many of us believe that children are wonderful, there are those that don't share the same opinion. That doesnt make me a better heathen because I have kids and they don't, it just is. Also, a key aspect of heathenry is responsibility. How responsible would it be for a person to pop out kids with no regard to how they will be supported? How much of a strain this will place on their community?

First, ancestry - I know it's a very integral part of Asatru to honor your ancestors, but what about those ancestors who were not so honorable? For example, my father used to lock me in a room, alone, when I was a toddler for hours so that he could go drink at the bar. My grandmother's mother abandoned her for a week when she was only five, leaving her to take care of her younger siblings. And from the research I've done, apparently I have an ancestor, a soldier, who sold information to both sides during the Civil War. I know I wouldn't exist without them, but they're not the sort of people I'd want to praise.

You outlaw them. From your heart and life.

The next thing I wanted to know was over distant family relations. I've read on other forums that you should put family before everything else, and that we should all live near each other. However, what if I a family member wanted to pursue a career that took them far away? My cousin wanted to become a chef and attend a college multiple states away, while I still wish to become an animator. Would it be wrong of me to leave? The job market for animation isn't good in my hometown, and I'd have to move to the other side of the country.

My last question involves children. I read that it was a heathens duty to have not just a few, but many children. Where would this leave people who did not wish to have children, or who couldn't? My uterus may be damaged, and I might not be able to have kids. Even if I could, I would only have as many that I knew I could take care of.

Forget everything from the above quote. Don't listen to people who tell you "how" you should be doing things as a heathen- there aren't rules. Listen to the underlying "why" of the things that are heathen and figure out how that applies to you.

=Raganhildis;9753]..First, ancestry - I know it's a very integral part of Asatru to honor your ancestors, but what about those ancestors who were not so honorable?

Honor is driven and defined by the times one lives in and the reasons one did what they did.  I was always told that part of honoring is look to the totality of the life not just some fragment of it.  My grandfather drank like a fish and was a pisspoor husband according to stories yet it is only fond memories we have of him.  I have one ancestor who sold goods to both North and South yet his actions ensured his family survived in the middle of a battlefield and when the battle was over his property was the only one not destroyed.  Sure he made a profit but he also cared for his neighbors afterwards.

I think one also has to look at family.  In many ways family stopped at the borders of ones village or secluded region.  So anything done to an outsider was not seen as being unhonorable or dishonorable.

When you start looking at family and seeking to determine what is honor it gets difficult.  Honor is a person keeping thier word and having a word that holds value.  Honor is being there when needed and standing alongside until the end.  Many times honor is ignoring the faults and accepting the person for who and what they were and what they brough to the table.  Many times honor was a thing jaded by time and memory and corruption in the minds of outsiders.

The next thing I wanted to know was over distant family relations.

I know for the US it wasn't until the 1870's time frame that you really see lots of movement in family groupings based upon census records.  Prior to that there was movement but it many times entailed groups of people moving as one vice individual families moving.

Now my family is a mountain family of Scotish / Irish descent, so while its member's move about it was never forgotten that they were still family.  I have cousins I've never met and probably never will but they are still my family and I know who they are to a degree.  As the genealogist of the family I've encountered more than I ever though possible and know more stories of thier lives and such than seems possible.

My last question involves children. I read that it was a heathens duty to have not just a few, but many children.

I was once told that a woman has X number of biological children and Y number of children.  A man will father X number of offspring but be a father image to Y number of children.  In that capacity every adult in the community was mother & father and every elder was a grand-mother & grand-father.

NOw I realize that sense of community and family is dated now and most people do not even know thier neighbors any more.  But that was the understanding I had of a persons duty to family, kith and kin and kindred.

The next thing I wanted to know was over distant family relations. I've read on other forums that you should put family before everything else, and that we should all live near each other.



My last question involves children. I read that it was a heathens duty to have not just a few, but many children. Where would this leave people who did not wish to have children, or who couldn't? My uterus may be damaged, and I might not be able to have kids. Even if I could, I would only have as many that I knew I could take care of.

These two things sound just a little ridiculous!

Yes, in an ideal world, I would LOVE to live and work close to my family. Like Juniper said though, it's knowing the reason why that's important, not just doing it because you're "supposed" to. If the work I love and am committed to requires me to move to do the very best I can at it, be happy in myself, and provide for myself/family, that's what I will do.

As for kids, I'm a heathen who is pretty sure I don't want biological children. As a teacher, my students are my "kids" and I look forward to serving as a role model for them all.

..

Just a note or observation here but just how do you know who these ancestors are that are not worthy of being honored by your position?  I've seen disown them, disavowel them, various things yet I have to wonder.  I know in my own family any that would warrant such a disownment would not only be disowned but never again mentioned.  As such any generation coming behind us would never know of them or would only know they are dead but not the how, why or when.

Granted by today's standards its a little easier to find those people that shook the foundations of our family tree.  Yet it also implies that one had to go looking for them, then dig to find the family connections and who begot who in the scenario.

So I suppose I just wonder what would warrant being disowned.  I have one cousin who was disowned for marrying a black man.  By todays standards a pretty poor excuse to disown a person, but done neverless by her immediate family.  Have one cousin who disowned herself from the family because her parents didn't give her all she desired, today she seek's to reconnect those ties but encounters difficulty from many of the family.

We have our murders and such in the tree but I can't think of any of them that were disowned because of it.  Heck more were chastised for not doing something to defend thier honor and family.  However, that was and is mountain honor and fueds were not uncommon and the slightest slight was enough to kill for.

Which makes me ask, just what justifies being disowned?

In the context of this tread (i.e. heathens honouring dead ancestors), I would say that would be a matter for the individual person or family group honouring their dead. The group or individual determines what is “inner” and “outer” for them. In a heathen context there are no universal rules that everyone must agree to in this regard. It's a family matter.

I agree with this. There are families today who disown their children for being gay. I think their children in that case have every right not to honour them, and I'd think I wouldn't want to be honoured by someone I'd kicked out of my house, so it works out nicely. There's a bit in Gisli Sursson's Saga where mention is made of someone who chains his retarded son to the outside of his house, and, I'll be honest, as a disabled person, stuff like that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Although, to be fair, the book where I got that reference (A Brief History of the Vikings by Jonathan Clements) points out that everyone did things that we moderns would find reprehensible, Christian and Heathen alike, those were the times, you know?

Hi! I'll take a stab at your questions here with my opinions.

Thank you for the answers, they've helped a lot. I'm not so sure about outlawing them... from what I understand of your post, that would mean I would lose all connections on my fathers side, and a good chunk from my mothers side.

As for the children thing... uh, where the hell did you read THAT?

 
I think the forum was called Skadii, Skaldii or something like that. I closed out of that site after I read a post claiming that Obama was being controlled by the Jewish Hierarchy. [/conspiracy!] I was curious to see if this was a common thought amongst heathens.

Simply put, if they've been horrible to you, they don't deserve your honour. Now, depending on how intimate a relationship you have with your ancestors, maybe some of them would like to make amends, in which case I'd recommend you use your discretion. This assumes that you believe that one can have a two-sided relationship with the ancestors in that way, of course, but if you just want to honour them, I stand by my earlier advice.

At the moment, I believe a two-sided relationship would be possible. However, I didn't really know any of them save for my father, and he's still living as far as I know. If you were to honor your ancestors in a blot/ritual, would it just be assumed or 'standard' that the legitimately bad ancestors, who did more harm then good to your people, would be excluded?

You outlaw them. From your heart and life.

Forget everything from the above quote. Don't listen to people who tell you "how" you should be doing things as a heathen- there aren't rules. Listen to the underlying "why" of the things that are heathen and figure out how that applies to you.

Good advice, I'll keep this in mind.

Honor is driven and defined by the times one lives in and the reasons one did what they did. I was always told that part of honoring is look to the totality of the life not just some fragment of it. My grandfather drank like a fish and was a pisspoor husband according to stories yet it is only fond memories we have of him. I have one ancestor who sold goods to both North and South yet his actions ensured his family survived in the middle of a battlefield and when the battle was over his property was the only one not destroyed. Sure he made a profit but he also cared for his neighbors afterwards.

Nobody is perfect, I understand this. We all do bad things in our lives, and I don't mean to judge whether or not I should honor an ancestor based solely on one action.

Going back to my own ancestor in the Civil War, I was able to talk to my grandmother about him this past week, and, unfortunately, he was not a good man. He was my great uncle multiple times removed. When she was little, it was forbidden to talk about him by the family, with them even going so far as to stop a school project about the Civil War - I forgot the exact details. He was the sort who would go up to a farm and demand to sleep with the farmers wife. If they refused, he'd kill them and rape the wife anyway.

That's not the sort of actions I'd want to honor, but it would seem my family already outlawed him.

NOw I realize that sense of community and family is dated now and most people do not even know thier neighbors any more. But that was the understanding I had of a persons duty to family, kith and kin and kindred.

That would be ideal for me, a close community. Unfortunately, most folks distrust others for the smallest of differences.

Hey there Raganhildis.
Welcome to the SIG!

This is my opinion, but it is rooted in much of the literature I have read:

Since they are your ancesters their deeds and bad luck falls back on your family (which includes you). You can´t really "outlaw" them from your life since it´s a fact that they are your ancesters (you do not have to honor them at the blóts) and that they did what they did - Of cause if your family outlawed them/severed ties with them before their death the social impact in the community would be less significant.

What you can do is to improve/override the damaged luck and worth of your family (in the eyes of yourself and the community).

 
Thanks for the welcome, and I will keep this in mind. When you say their bad luck will fall back on me, this has to do with the 'Wyrd' concept, right?

snip

I'm starting to sound like a broken record now, but I will keep this in mind, and thanks for the input!

Just a note or observation here but just how do you know who these ancestors are that are not worthy of being honored by your position?

I know them by asking my family about them, or doing research on my own. For example, if I had never asked my grandmother about my many-times-great uncle, I would have only known him as that civil war guy who sold info to both sides. Now I know he was pretty much disowned from the family for other horrible things he had done. As for what justifies being disowned, I think that would be left up to the family. Frankly, I wouldn't want to have anything to do with my family if they disowned me for something petty like 'marrying outside your race' or being homosexual.