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Author Topic: Old Man Winter = Odin?  (Read 8714 times)

Thorson

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Old Man Winter = Odin?
« on: April 03, 2013, 03:48:55 pm »
Hi, first I'd like to apologize if this question has been asked before. I'm a total Noob.:ashamed:

Is Old Man Winter another name for Odin/Woden? Opinion, from what I can gather with my Google Fu, is mixed. The Wikipedia page on Old Man Winter seems to cast doubt on a connection between the two. Other sites state that Old Man Winter is just another of Odin's names and that he eventually morphed into Father Xmas.

So I figured I'd ask the experts here.:D:

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 03:53:33 pm by Thorson »

MadZealot

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Re: Old Man Winter = Odin?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2013, 03:59:56 pm »
Quote from: Thorson;104219
...

Not in response to the OP, but a comment on the user's avatar.

"CHRISTIANITY
My god has a hammer, your god was nailed to a cross.
Any questions?"  

Might that not be considered a tad disrespectful?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 04:01:56 pm by MadZealot »
You have my sword
And my shield
And my... um... slacks.

Thorson

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Re: Old Man Winter = Odin?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2013, 04:18:48 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;104222
Not in response to the OP, but a comment on the user's avatar.

"CHRISTIANITY
My god has a hammer, your god was nailed to a cross.
Any questions?"  

Might that not be considered a tad disrespectful?

 
That was certainly not my intention, but to avoid offending anyone, I will change it.

Jack

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Old Man Winter = Odin?
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2013, 12:13:08 am »
Quote from: Thorson;104219
Hi, first I'd like to apologize if this question has been asked before. I'm a total Noob.:ashamed:

Is Old Man Winter another name for Odin/Woden? Opinion, from what I can gather with my Google Fu, is mixed. The Wikipedia page on Old Man Winter seems to cast doubt on a connection between the two. Other sites state that Old Man Winter is just another of Odin's names and that he eventually morphed into Father Xmas.

So I figured I'd ask the experts here.:D:

Thanks in advance.

I've seen discussion of Father Christmas descending from Odin, but I don't recall anything specifically mentioning Old Man Winter. Where have you seen it mentioned? I'd like to read about it before drawing conclusions.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Laveth

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Re: Old Man Winter = Odin?
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2013, 12:27:50 am »
Quote from: Jack;104246
I've seen discussion of Father Christmas descending from Odin, but I don't recall anything specifically mentioning Old Man Winter. Where have you seen it mentioned? I'd like to read about it before drawing conclusions.

 
Russia has a Father Winter entity that isn't like Odin. Food for thought. :)

Nachtigall

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Re: Old Man Winter = Odin?
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2013, 04:54:44 am »
Quote from: Laveth;104249
Russia has a Father Winter entity that isn't like Odin. Food for thought. :)

 
He is often compared to Veles though (buth mostly by Pagans, as I recall, not by academics), who in turn is indeed compared to Odin.

Thorson

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Re: Old Man Winter = Odin?
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2013, 05:19:19 am »
Quote from: Jack;104246
I've seen discussion of Father Christmas descending from Odin, but I don't recall anything specifically mentioning Old Man Winter. Where have you seen it mentioned? I'd like to read about it before drawing conclusions.

 
The Old Man Winter Wikipedia page, although that now seems to be in question.

hlewagastir

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Re: Old Man Winter = Odin?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2013, 05:36:26 am »
Quote from: Thorson;104219
Hi, first I'd like to apologize if this question has been asked before. I'm a total Noob.:ashamed:

Is Old Man Winter another name for Odin/Woden? Opinion, from what I can gather with my Google Fu, is mixed. The Wikipedia page on Old Man Winter seems to cast doubt on a connection between the two. Other sites state that Old Man Winter is just another of Odin's names and that he eventually morphed into Father Xmas.

So I figured I'd ask the experts here.:D:

Thanks in advance.

Hey there,

Welcome, no shame in being new ;)

Not heard of it before, but I would wager that it is an offspring of the good ol´ "Odin/Jólnir is Father Christmas" debate... An idea which is pretty much unsupported by the source material.

IOW, I think it´s a modern invention (probably 19th or 20th century).
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 05:37:05 am by hlewagastir »

Thorson

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Re: Old Man Winter = Odin?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2013, 07:49:46 am »
Quote from: hlewagastir;104266
Hey there,

Welcome, no shame in being new ;)

Not heard of it before, but I would wager that it is an offspring of the good ol´ "Odin/Jólnir is Father Christmas" debate... An idea which is pretty much unsupported by the source material.

IOW, I think it´s a modern invention (probably 19th or 20th century).

 
Thanks for replying. To be honest, until very recently, I wasn't even aware there was any possible connection between Odin and Old Man Winter/Father Christmas.

Jack

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Old Man Winter = Odin?
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2013, 12:14:39 pm »
Quote from: Nachtigall;104261
He is often compared to Veles though (buth mostly by Pagans, as I recall, not by academics), who in turn is indeed compared to Odin.

That is not a comparison I would have made for Veles. Do you know the reasoning behind it?
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Nachtigall

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Re: Old Man Winter = Odin?
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2013, 12:40:07 pm »
Quote from: Jack;104315
That is not a comparison I would have made for Veles. Do you know the reasoning behind it?

Off the top of my head, Veles was most often syncretised with Saint Nicholas in post-conversion folk beliefs, who is, well, in turn is pretty much syncretised with Father Frost (or Santa Klaus on the West) figure. Other than that, I'm not sure; it may be just some efforts of Slavic Pagans to claim a popular folk character as their own.

Though I think there still are some connections between Veles and winter in Slavic beliefs as well, but I need to check my references for that.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 12:41:05 pm by Nachtigall »

hlewagastir

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Re: Old Man Winter = Odin?
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2013, 01:21:49 pm »
Quote from: Thorson;104274
Thanks for replying. To be honest, until very recently, I wasn't even aware there was any possible connection between Odin and Old Man Winter/Father Christmas.

My pleasure,

Yeah, well... The connection is so minuscule that not being aware of it is not really a loss.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 01:23:40 pm by hlewagastir »

Jack

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Re: Old Man Winter = Odin?
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2013, 01:49:22 pm »
Quote from: Nachtigall;104320
Off the top of my head, Veles was most often syncretised with Saint Nicholas in post-conversion folk beliefs, who is, well, in turn is pretty much syncretised with Father Frost (or Santa Klaus on the West) figure. Other than that, I'm not sure; it may be just some efforts of Slavic Pagans to claim a popular folk character as their own.

Though I think there still are some connections between Veles and winter in Slavic beliefs as well, but I need to check my references for that.

 
Oh, okay, that makes more sense. I was trying to draw a straight line between Veles and Odin and couldn't figure out how you'd do it. XD
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
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Laveth

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Re: Old Man Winter = Odin?
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2013, 02:01:56 pm »
Quote from: Nachtigall;104320
Off the top of my head, Veles was most often syncretised with Saint Nicholas in post-conversion folk beliefs, who is, well, in turn is pretty much syncretised with Father Frost (or Santa Klaus on the West) figure. Other than that, I'm not sure; it may be just some efforts of Slavic Pagans to claim a popular folk character as their own.

Though I think there still are some connections between Veles and winter in Slavic beliefs as well, but I need to check my references for that.

 


Veles was very Christianized when made into a saint, and he's not altogether associated with winter, per-say than the underworld in general. I could see the link, but it's pretty far twisted based on my sources (mind, I haven't read everything in the 'verse).

That being said, there is a deity in Slovenian lore called Vodin that dates back to 2000 BC and is virtually identical to Odin to the point where the point has been made that there were cultural crossovers and migration between the Nordic and Slavic groups. Because Slovenia is so small compared to Russia, a lot of the Slavic lore in general (even if it isn't Russian/Polish/whatever) gets sort of... forced into the Russian/Polish lore, even if it originally wasn't connected.

I can look into this further with some friends I have who specialize in the Russian/Polish end of Slavic lore if you want?

Laveth

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Re: Old Man Winter = Odin?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2013, 02:18:01 pm »
Quote from: Laveth;104339
Veles was very Christianized when made into a saint, and he's not altogether associated with winter, per-say than the underworld in general. I could see the link, but it's pretty far twisted based on my sources (mind, I haven't read everything in the 'verse).

That being said, there is a deity in Slovenian lore called Vodin that dates back to 2000 BC and is virtually identical to Odin to the point where the point has been made that there were cultural crossovers and migration between the Nordic and Slavic groups. Because Slovenia is so small compared to Russia, a lot of the Slavic lore in general (even if it isn't Russian/Polish/whatever) gets sort of... forced into the Russian/Polish lore, even if it originally wasn't connected.

I can look into this further with some friends I have who specialize in the Russian/Polish end of Slavic lore if you want?


Okie doke so I did a little poking (not much, a little).

http://www.ancientpoland.org/slavic-arkadia.php

Most of the info written there I've read in several other sources, so I'm giving it the benefit for now and it does state that (at least) in Poland, St. Nicholas is a descendant of Veles. So there's that link.

I've never seen, heard, nor does google show up with anything linking Veles with Father Winter.

Linking Veles with Odin... I really can't say I see it. It's shaman vs. serpent, sacrifice vs. underworld ruler, hanging on the life tree vs. curled up around the roots gnawing on Jav and stealing Perun's rain or cattle, thus resulting in a heated battle between Veles the water and underworld deity and Perun the lightning-throwing protectorate.

*shrugs*

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