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Author Topic: Spirit Workers  (Read 2409 times)

BoneKeeper

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Spirit Workers
« on: December 19, 2012, 10:07:06 pm »
I've been kind of in a bind lately, at least in my brainbox, and was hoping to find a little bit of help or a new way to look at it.

I've been branching out as of late delving more into "alternative" magic (alternative to the mainstream neopaganism, etc.) and have been drawing deeper into and towards practices such as those that are more folk-sy, things with bones, shaman-like practices, animism, etc. In doing this and reading a couple different blogs of people with similar practices I have begun to come across terms for different 'workers', becoming to feel not sure personally about the term "witch" or "witchcraft", along with getting a bit confused about this shamanism stuff.

(I believe personally that across the board there are people in indigenous cultures past and present who practiced similar 'workings' that can be all lumped under the scholarly term "shamanism", and that each culture respectively had it's own "versions" of "shamanism", and their own names for this practice/these practices and the people who performed them.) I guess where I'm getting wrapped up at is the different kinds of spirit-workers, hell, different magic practitioners in general; and the use or non-use of the word "shaman" that everyone seems afraid to utter, even though I think it works, being a scholarly word, to generally describe someone who practices shamanic arts or the arts themselves in a non-culturally-specific manner without being ethnocentric, but almost everyone I've seen thinks that using it that way IS being ethnocentric, when I think it would be worse to claim to be "term in their language" and claim "all of that traditions specific shaman-like practices, not just the [I guess this would be core shamanistic] practices without ever being apart of said specific culture or trained with them".... am I wrong in thinking this way? (Oh, and I also think that undergoing La Petite Mort, the Little Death, is essential in being a "shaman" regardless, but I know other people who say that other "spirit workers", who aren't considered "shamans", also must undergo the Little Death journey and return.... and I have no qualms about saying "shamanic practices" when referring to doing things such as psychic surgery or journeying.)

Anyway, maybe some people can shed some light on what a Spirit Worker does, the different kinds of spirit workers, some other magical practitioners (think anything other than witch, like spaewife) and what makes them different, maybe bring something enlightening to the table about this "shamanism" mess... Hope I made some sort of sense in there >.< [And please forgive me if I seem ignorant.]
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 10:09:28 pm by BoneKeeper »

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Re: Spirit Workers
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2012, 11:40:32 pm »
Quote from: BoneKeeper;85759
I believe personally that across the board there are people in indigenous cultures past and present who practiced similar 'workings' that can be all lumped under the scholarly term "shamanism" (...) but almost everyone I've seen thinks that using it that way IS being ethnocentric, when I think it would be worse to claim to be "term in their language" and claim "all of that traditions specific shaman-like practices, not just the [ I guess this would be core shamanistic ] practices without ever being apart of said specific culture or trained with them".... am I wrong in thinking this way?

Scholars are children of the times, too. The scholarly use of the term "shaman" has shown to be faulty. It's not just ethnocentric, it's actively misappropriative-- even if you see similarities, personal beliefs are all well and good, but you'd have to really ignore the mantle of political clout (that the scholars were ignorant of as well) to claim it. Not using the word "shaman" is just an effort to be good allies to oppressed people, and respect the boundaries of the culture around that spirituality.

Now, I've never met a North Asian Shaman who said, "Please stand up for the proper and correct terms of my practice," and I take it that you've probably never met an actual Shaman who told you, "You're not allowed to call yourself that because you haven't been trained by me or anyone like me, and that's disrespectful." One of my favorite (self-identified) Shamans acknowledges this problem with the political filter of Core Shamanism and calls their own practice Grassroots Shamanism.

So, if you like the sound and the associations of the word because it just fits, then, you can probably get away with it. If you understand the arguments against the use of the term, and still choose it, then... at least you didn't just brush aside the detractors and pick up the mantle of "shaman" willy-nilly. As long as it's an informed and conscious choice, is all I'm saying.

Quote
(Oh, and I also think that undergoing La Petite Mort, the Little Death, is essential in being a "shaman" regardless, but I know other people who say that other "spirit workers", who aren't considered "shamans", also must undergo the Little Death journey and return.... and I have no qualms about saying "shamanic practices" when referring to doing things such as psychic surgery or journeying.)


Here's where I have some momentary confusion. Do you mean shamans have to physically sexually orgasm? (I mean, it's not something I heard about from osmosis, but it would fit in with what I know of how some chaotes sometimes reach gnosis, to activate sigils.) Or do you mean a Near Death Experience (that is, an actual death experience but "I got better") or Out-of-Body Experience? Or, do you mean pop-psychological Shadow Work like facing your flaws and wounds, and coming out the other side with a more full experience of life and understanding of your own psyche?

Quote
>.< [And please forgive me if I seem ignorant.]

 
Blind leading the blind here, really. My first real primer, identified itself as "direct magick" and called itself witchcraft because it defined a witch as, really, just a practitioner of magick-- any magick, magick as defined by Crowley, in fact, and yes the writer spelled it with a "k". But, eventually I just found that my practice of witchcraft had much less in common with witches who were European Pagan theurgists or-- I guess-- animists? With the crystals, herbs, and candles... that I wandered off into psi phenomena. I just looped back around to here, because I found Spirit(s) and that's actually not psi-onic.

So, I might identify as underfoot the Rokkr, which affiliates itself with Heathenry-- and, I might identify as working with Spirits and magick practice-- but I won't identify as a spákona.

I walk around the otherworld, and call it Astral Projection because of my psi roots. I've done some healing (on myself, but I feel inspired to eventually move on healing other people) but I call that Energy Work because of my psi roots. Animal spirit guides? I... don't know what to call that, but am in the camp of it being more psychological than astral. I wouldn't call my practice Shamanism, not because I'm trying to keep politically correct, but because it just doesn't fit. (And I'm glad that it doesn't, because I personally don't believe that it's politically correct. And my personal beliefs and practice don't need a name for it anyway, I only need something to refer to when I'm communicating to others about my practice and experience.)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 11:45:49 pm by Faemon »
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SkySamuelle

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Re: Spirit Workers
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2012, 04:35:05 am »
Quote from: BoneKeeper;85759
I've been kind of in a bind lately, at least in my brainbox, and was hoping to find a little bit of help or a new way to look at it.

I've been branching out as of late delving more into "alternative" magic (alternative to the mainstream neopaganism, etc.) and have been drawing deeper into and towards practices such as those that are more folk-sy, things with bones, shaman-like practices, animism, etc. In doing this and reading a couple different blogs of people with similar practices I have begun to come across terms for different 'workers', becoming to feel not sure personally about the term "witch" or "witchcraft", along with getting a bit confused about this shamanism stuff.

(I believe personally that across the board there are people in indigenous cultures past and present who practiced similar 'workings' that can be all lumped under the scholarly term "shamanism", and that each culture respectively had it's own "versions" of "shamanism", and their own names for this practice/these practices and the people who performed them.) I guess where I'm getting wrapped up at is the different kinds of spirit-workers, hell, different magic practitioners in general; and the use or non-use of the word "shaman" that everyone seems afraid to utter, even though I think it works, being a scholarly word, to generally describe someone who practices shamanic arts or the arts themselves in a non-culturally-specific manner without being ethnocentric, but almost everyone I've seen thinks that using it that way IS being ethnocentric, when I think it would be worse to claim to be "term in their language" and claim "all of that traditions specific shaman-like practices, not just the [I guess this would be core shamanistic] practices without ever being apart of said specific culture or trained with them".... am I wrong in thinking this way? (Oh, and I also think that undergoing La Petite Mort, the Little Death, is essential in being a "shaman" regardless, but I know other people who say that other "spirit workers", who aren't considered "shamans", also must undergo the Little Death journey and return.... and I have no qualms about saying "shamanic practices" when referring to doing things such as psychic surgery or journeying.)

Anyway, maybe some people can shed some light on what a Spirit Worker does, the different kinds of spirit workers, some other magical practitioners (think anything other than witch, like spaewife) and what makes them different, maybe bring something enlightening to the table about this "shamanism" mess... Hope I made some sort of sense in there >.< [And please forgive me if I seem ignorant.]

 
The fact is, magic-worker and spirit-worker is not the same thing.

The term spirit-worker essentially indicates a situation where the human party is 'spirit-employed' aka doing work for one or, more frequently, more spirits/deities in return for tutelage and protection, and that human's life is conditioned deeply from that contract.

Shamanism on the other side... it's often a term claimed to indicate all types of energy-work or journey between realms work in ways that differ very much from the original meaning.

I feel the 'shaman' term is one that should be used and claimed only if spirits/deities ask you to as it implies a very specific path and work. It means that individual relinquishes a rather large portion of hir mortal life to the gods in service and it indicates a personal journey that involved isolation from the human comunity for a time, facing with the shaman's sickness and a return to the human community once the initiation came to be in the role of mediator between spirits and humans. One might say that the shaman today is really a culture-specific figure and more one archetype specific as the shaman figure came to represent a 'wounded healer' archetype even outside siberian tribes.  

Shamanism is tough, only one of many 'flavors' of spirit-work. You can be a witch without being a spiritworker as a witch doesn't necessarily need to have a spirit-employer to be effective, even if that can be useful and inspiring.
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Juniperberry

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Re: Spirit Workers
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2012, 10:08:20 am »
Quote from: BoneKeeper;85759
I've been kind of in a bind lately, at least in my brainbox, and was hoping to find a little bit of help or a new way to look at it.

 

Well... I think you should probably worry less about the terminology and instead focus on finding a cultural/spiritual/religious 'path' that feels right for you and then let things come as they may. It seems a bit like you're missing the forest for the trees here.

Also, you might have better luck asking about specific traditions/practices that you come across rather than asking us to pretty much explain everything about everything. :)
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

BoneKeeper

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Re: Spirit Workers
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2012, 07:22:27 pm »
Quote from: triple_entendre;85779
Scholars are children of the times, too. The scholarly use of the term "shaman" has shown to be faulty. It's not just ethnocentric, it's actively misappropriative-- even if you see similarities, personal beliefs are all well and good, but you'd have to really ignore the mantle of political clout (that the scholars were ignorant of as well) to claim it. Not using the word "shaman" is just an effort to be good allies to oppressed people, and respect the boundaries of the culture around that spirituality.

So, if you like the sound and the associations of the word because it just fits, then, you can probably get away with it. If you understand the arguments against the use of the term, and still choose it, then... at least you didn't just brush aside the detractors and pick up the mantle of "shaman" willy-nilly. As long as it's an informed and conscious choice, is all I'm saying.

I made a comment in another post somewhere around here that was talking about Shamanism that has to do with this.. I see a lot of people throwing around words like "ethnocentric" and "cultural appropriation" when it comes to people calling themselves "shaman". I understand that point of view, and my thinking was that if someone is in fact not trained in a particular culture's "kind" of "shamanism" (like the roots of shamanism+that cultures specific spirits/myths/methods), but they practice many kinds of "shamanic practices" (such as otherworld journeying, psychic surgery, etc.) that one would think that they could call themselves "shaman" without being cultural appropriating anyone. And if they were, in fact, trained in a specific culture's ways (Siberian or Mayan or what have you) that they could then, instead of calling themselves "shaman", would take up that culture's language-specific Title, does that make sense? Of course, maybe another word that could replace Shaman, in the not-culturally-specific sense that I mentioned, could be coined/used instead, but I don't know what that could be.



Quote
Here's where I have some momentary confusion. Do you mean shamans have to physically sexually orgasm? (I mean, it's not something I heard about from osmosis, but it would fit in with what I know of how some chaotes sometimes reach gnosis, to activate sigils.) Or do you mean a Near Death Experience (that is, an actual death experience but "I got better") or Out-of-Body Experience? Or, do you mean pop-psychological Shadow Work like facing your flaws and wounds, and coming out the other side with a more full experience of life and understanding of your own psyche?

Yes I mean the "shaman's death" or the "shaman's sickness", I just refer to it as that. Either a long-lasting sickness, a near-death experience, or some such thing. Shadow Work is involved regardless, I would think. Sorry for the confusion.

 
Quote from: SkySamuelle;85795
The fact is, magic-worker and spirit-worker is not the same thing.

The term spirit-worker essentially indicates a situation where the human party is 'spirit-employed' aka doing work for one or, more frequently, more spirits/deities in return for tutelage and protection, and that human's life is conditioned deeply from that contract.

Ok, that helps a bit. So you can be a magic-worker (like a witch, or root worker?) who may or may not work with Spirits, but don't need to in order to do magic. Then you have Spirit Workers, who commune and work with [and serve?] spirits/gods? (I know most 'witches' who worship/serve gods... wasn't sure that diety-work was included in spirit-work).


Quote
I feel the 'shaman' term is one that should be used and claimed only if spirits/deities ask you to as it implies a very specific path and work. It means that individual relinquishes a rather large portion of hir mortal life to the gods in service and it indicates a personal journey that involved isolation from the human comunity for a time, facing with the shaman's sickness and a return to the human community once the initiation came to be in the role of mediator between spirits and humans. One might say that the shaman today is really a culture-specific figure and more one archetype specific as the shaman figure came to represent a 'wounded healer' archetype even outside siberian tribes.  

Yes, this. I agree.

 
Quote from: Juniperberry;85808
Well... I think you should probably worry less about the terminology and instead focus on finding a cultural/spiritual/religious 'path' that feels right for you and then let things come as they may. It seems a bit like you're missing the forest for the trees here.

This is what my partner, Frost, keeps telling me :P The way my brain works, I get hung up on labels, descriptions, "how EXACTLY did you do that??" kind of stuff, unfortunately :/

Quote
Also, you might have better luck asking about specific traditions/practices that you come across rather than asking us to pretty much explain everything about everything. :)

Well, recently I've come across these terms (forgive me if I misspell any):
-Cunningfolk (and the various words in non-english languages referring to pretty much the same thing)
-Spaewife
-Spakona
-Seidh
-Volva
-Noita

I don't know if there are others however, and if there are would like to learn about them as well (hence my generic, open-ended question in the beginning). Oh, and then trying to "define" and struggling with my thoughts on the terms "witch" and "shaman" and their use.

I'm also confused on the difference between Asatru and Heathenism (and I could throw in Northern Traditions Paganism too I suppose since I just came across that one). When I first got into new age-y stuff I saw the term heathen thrown around as just another term for a non-christian, lay-pagan country folk kinda thing. But then I began seeing it used alongside Asatru.

Thanks for the help, by the way :)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 07:25:09 pm by BoneKeeper »

Juniperberry

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Re: Spirit Workers
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2012, 08:46:21 pm »
Quote from: BoneKeeper;85873



Well, recently I've come across these terms (forgive me if I misspell any):
-Cunningfolk (and the various words in non-english languages referring to pretty much the same thing)
-Spaewife
-Spakona
-Seidh
-Volva
-Noita


I'm also confused on the difference between Asatru and Heathenism (and I could throw in Northern Traditions Paganism too I suppose since I just came across that one). When I first got into new age-y stuff I saw the term heathen thrown around as just another term for a non-christian, lay-pagan country folk kinda thing. But then I began seeing it used alongside Asatru.

Thanks for the help, by the way :)

I really only have a passing familiarity with a few of these since magic hasn't been my area of interest. Which is what spae and seidr are, for the most part.

Spaewife/kona: Pretty sure these are the same thing. It's household magic. Stitching charms into the clothes as you sew type thing. The PC version of seidr.

Seidr: sometimes considered "dark" magic. Manipulation, curses, stitching, seething. Sidhr is really  just the word for magic but had it's own stigma in its time (hence spaekona).

Volva: Prophet, seer, wise woman.

The Viking Answer Lady site has a more informative section on this that you'd probably like.

Asatru is mainly inspired by Icelandic traditions. Heathen is anything from Germanic/Norse tradition with a focus on reconstructionism. Northern Traditions is European inspired with a focus on personal spirituality. Vanatru is focused on the Vanir gods. Of course, this isn't exact but a general breakdown. All groups can focus on similar things. It's politics. ;)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 08:48:50 pm by Juniperberry »
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I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

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Re: Spirit Workers
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2012, 06:49:17 am »
Quote from: BoneKeeper;85873
And if they were, in fact, trained in a specific culture's ways (Siberian or Mayan or what have you) that they could then, instead of calling themselves "shaman", would take up that culture's language-specific Title, does that make sense? Of course, maybe another word that could replace Shaman, in the not-culturally-specific sense that I mentioned, could be coined/used instead, but I don't know what that could be.

 
Problem is that the word "shaman" is already language specific, specifically Siberian. It got grabbed up and assimilated willynilly to describe something in our language that it doesn't necessarily cover in the original language.
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