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Author Topic: Silence  (Read 3091 times)

Stardancer

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Silence
« on: July 19, 2011, 01:24:03 pm »
"To know, to will, to dare and to be silent." I've seen this come up in several different systems of thought and magic. The first three are usually explained easily (though the difference between willing and daring seems slight), but the last one I don't really grok.

On the one hand - talking too much tends to squander energy. I talked and talked and talked about the shop I wanted to open last year. Result: there is no shop. On the other hand - communicating what you want can help open doors. Such as someone in your network can give you a tip about the kind of job you're looking for.

What are your thoughts on this?
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DomesticWitch

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Re: Silence
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2011, 01:49:17 pm »
Quote from: Stardancer;6210
"To know, to will, to dare and to be silent." I've seen this come up in several different systems of thought and magic. The first three are usually explained easily (though the difference between willing and daring seems slight), but the last one I don't really grok.

On the one hand - talking too much tends to squander energy. I talked and talked and talked about the shop I wanted to open last year. Result: there is no shop. On the other hand - communicating what you want can help open doors. Such as someone in your network can give you a tip about the kind of job you're looking for.

What are your thoughts on this?

I dislike the entire "to be silent" concept, in respect to magic at least. But then again it can be quite complicated - bring in aspects such as the Law of Attraction and even things such as Tulpas (tibetan thoughtform). I suppose it all depends on how powerful you view the mind and/or the collective mind to be.

To me, talking about magical practices (specific ones that you have done) can potentially have two influences on the actual practices - one, the negative or positive thoughts/energies the person being told has towards it and two, the negative or positive thoughts/energies that the conversation/s can result in you having towards your working. But what sort of power do the thoughts of a random person who you've told about a particular spell you've done have? Very little in my opinion. Your own doubts, however, could have quite a large effect (again, just my opinion), certainly in respect to on going workings (for example, a protection charm for your home).

Just to add - I dont think anyone should boast, brag or generally shout about their magical workings, I believe that they are very personal and to shout about them would lessen the intimacy. I rarely tell anyone about any magical workings I do, mostly because I rarely see the need to share.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 01:58:36 pm by DomesticWitch »

Katefox

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Re: Silence
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2011, 01:56:12 pm »
Quote from: Stardancer;6210
"To know, to will, to dare and to be silent." I've seen this come up in several different systems of thought and magic. The first three are usually explained easily (though the difference between willing and daring seems slight), but the last one I don't really grok.

On the one hand - talking too much tends to squander energy. I talked and talked and talked about the shop I wanted to open last year. Result: there is no shop. On the other hand - communicating what you want can help open doors. Such as someone in your network can give you a tip about the kind of job you're looking for.

What are your thoughts on this?

 
I always thought that was to do with not revealing oathbound material, as I'm sure I've seen that quote in reference to the Golden Dawn?  But I also think it is an admonishment against boasting and bragging.  The Golden Dawn and the like were secret societies, and it's not terribly secretive if you're constantly talking about all the magic spells you can do, and all the ancient wisdom you have learned.

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Re: Silence
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2011, 01:59:25 pm »
Quote from: Stardancer;6210
"To know, to will, to dare and to be silent."


I think those are rather good points.
To will and to dare is not the same. One can dare to undertake a task, but if the will is not behind it fails. Same the other way around, you can will all you like, but if you don't dare to do it, it does no good.

To be silent.
There are things one does not talk about.
Or with very few people. IME at least.

The longer I am on my path, the less desire I feel to talk about some things.
Funny enough, but true.

There are experiences that you can't put into words.
You might talk about them, with others who shared them - but that's not really talk about. It is more a: 'y'a know this or when that happens?' and the other would only go nodding and 'oh yes.'

So talking about what makes the difference.
I see no problem in explaining how I do a spell, or discussing something like this.
Also it depends on who you talk to. Like-minded people are a totally different matter than folks who don't believe in the same. *shrugs*

Everybody should do it like they think.
Personally I tend to like silence more and more the older I get.
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Stardancer

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Re: Silence
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2011, 02:43:10 pm »
Quote from: Tana;6217
I think those are rather good points.
To will and to dare is not the same. One can dare to undertake a task, but if the will is not behind it fails. Same the other way around, you can will all you like, but if you don't dare to do it, it does no good.


From the play 'Peer Gynt' by Ibsen: "To think it, to wish it, to will it even - but to do it, no..."

Quote

There are experiences that you can't put into words.
You might talk about them, with others who shared them - but that's not really talk about. It is more a: 'y'a know this or when that happens?' and the other would only go nodding and 'oh yes.'

 
Oh, that I get. But I find that to mostly be in respect to mystical experiences. If you*'ve had one I'm preaching to the choir, if not no matter how much I talk and explain - you* (* general you in both cases) still won't understand.
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Re: Silence
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2011, 02:46:14 pm »
Quote from: Tana;6217
The longer I am on my path, the less desire I feel to talk about some things.
Funny enough, but true.

 
Exactly.  Delving into in-depth work, especially Mystery work, turns up a bunch of stuff that's really only even worth talking about with people who actually already understand it.  It's not "Here, let me tell you these correspondences and we can go from there" conversation, it's "Okay, you've spent two years wrestling with this and now you're here" conversation.

Trying to talk about it outside that sort of context is like having a Tower of Babel conversation.  Lots of sound, no communication.  There's no point in wasting that energy - and trying can actually do harm.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
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Stardancer

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Re: Silence
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2011, 02:58:14 pm »
Quote from: Katefox;6214
I always thought that was to do with not revealing oathbound material, as I'm sure I've seen that quote in reference to the Golden Dawn?  But I also think it is an admonishment against boasting and bragging.  The Golden Dawn and the like were secret societies, and it's not terribly secretive if you're constantly talking about all the magic spells you can do, and all the ancient wisdom you have learned.

 
I've seen it there, I've seen it in derived orders, and I've seen it in books on witchcraft. In all cases it concerned magic, if I recall correctly. Admonishments about general secrecy usually turn up elsewhere in the material from the secret orders.

I agree that boasting is probably a bad idea. One thing is being proud of a spell that _worked_, another is bragging of a spell before it's even manifested - which then may or may not fail, thereby making an utter fool of yourself.
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Jenett

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Re: Silence
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2011, 03:55:59 pm »
Quote from: Stardancer;6210
"To know, to will, to dare and to be silent." I've seen this come up in several different systems of thought and magic. The first three are usually explained easily (though the difference between willing and daring seems slight), but the last one I don't really grok.


The way I had it explained to me (and tend to agree with) is that willing is about the conscious decision, and daring is about the emotional commitment to an idea. They're both connected, certainly, but our hearts and our heads sometimes pull in different directions.

(And also, if you're mapping it to the east-know, south-will, west-dare, north-silent direction model, will is about the choices we take in action, and choices is about the risks we take in emotion.)

Quote

What are your thoughts on this?

 
Beyond oathbound specifics (about which I have other comments over here, for the curious, at http://gleewood.org/seeking/broader-questions/oathbound-material/)

But in broader strokes:

- Silence encourages us to listen, from which we might learn something. (As I like to say, "I prefer to learn from other people's mistakes. Saves wear and tear on me.")

- Taking time to reflect on what we share means we can decide what really serves everyone involved. Are we bragging? Are we spoiling someone else's experience or chance to learn?

- Silence can allow for better focus - if we tell other people about an ongoing working, their energy comes into play.

I've actually got a good example from my recent job hunt. I was really open about the fact that I was looking for a job in my field, and that statistically speaking, that was likely to involve a move. Early on, I asked for help/support from various people, including one particular friend who was pretty openly conflicted about the idea of my moving.

I find it intriguing but persuasive that my job hunt got easier when I stopped telling her specifics about what I was applying for/asking for good wishes for a particular interview. Sometimes, telling people, even those who really do what what's best for us, can get in the way. (Fortunately, I have other friends who have been deeply supportive, even though it means I won't be local..)

I don't think this is true all the time, but we often don't know other people's particular quirks or sore spots. At the very least, thinking through before we tell them (and when we tell them) is probably a smart move, when a lot of different energies in a situation are in play. (For example, I can talk about generally job hunting, without being specific about where I'm interviewing, which gives a very direct focus of "Oh, let her get a job closer to here." or whatever.)

- And finally, there's a theory that we should do magic, and then put it out of our *own* mind (if it's a single-ritual working) and just go about our lives. The more we dwell on it, the more we can mess with the purity of focus and intention we created in ritual. If we're following that line of thought, then telling other people (while it's in progress) obviously also brings it to our attention, and weakens that focus.
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Malkin

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Re: Silence
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2011, 07:49:43 pm »
Quote from: Stardancer;6210
On the one hand - talking too much tends to squander energy. I talked and talked and talked about the shop I wanted to open last year. Result: there is no shop. On the other hand - communicating what you want can help open doors. Such as someone in your network can give you a tip about the kind of job you're looking for.

 
The admonition to be silent isn't really about polite behavior, energy, or anything like that.

It's about knowing what to keep to yourself. It's about not speaking of holy things to people who aren't worth explaining them to. There is a magic in silence that preserves things against the profane. It's a matter of mystery.

These admonitions were written by Eliphas Levi, who called them the Powers of the Sphinx. (That should give you a clue.) Here's a couple of things he says about it:

Quote
“When one does not know, one should will to learn. To the extent that one does not know it is foolhardy to dare, but it is always well to keep silent.”


Jenett already touched on the idea that silence helps us to listen, to watch and learn.

Quote
“In order to DARE we must KNOW; in order to WILL, we must DARE; we must WILL to possess empire and to reign we must BE SILENT.”

Nyktipolos

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Re: Silence
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2011, 08:30:59 pm »
Quote from: Stardancer;6239
I've seen it there, I've seen it in derived orders, and I've seen it in books on witchcraft. In all cases it concerned magic, if I recall correctly. Admonishments about general secrecy usually turn up elsewhere in the material from the secret orders.

 
Well, the words you list originally hail from the Order of the Golden Dawn with their workings with the Sphinx. This website may help if you're curious to read more where it came from: http://thelemicgoldendawn.net/zelator/sphinxinstruction.htm

You're right however that keeping silence is in many cases a universal thing when it comes to magic, and Mysteries. The Greeks has two terms when concerning silence on Mysteries: arrheton, which is something that is beyond description and unable to be spoken of, and aporrheton, a secret that isn't to be shared with others. In both cases, unless the other person you were talking to had undergone the same Mystery rites that you had, you couldn't really talk with them about what you had gone through.
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monsnoleedra

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Re: Silence
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2011, 08:44:17 pm »
Quote from: Stardancer;6210
"To know, to will, to dare and to be silent." I've seen this come up in several different systems of thought and magic. ..


To my pathway "To be silent is to hear!"  The hurricane is revealed by a change in sound and pitch that can be heard if one is silent.  The approach of the tornado can also be heard by the quiet that preceeds it many times.  A change in the subtle sounds of nature will reveal the presence of things if you listen.  Even a voice upon the wind, uttered in a whisper is a thundering crash if you listen.

Mankind tends to talk to simply hear itself speak.  But the deafening roar in the silence reveals all if you close the yap and open the mind and ones senses.

Vale

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Re: Silence
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2011, 07:39:11 am »
Quote from: Tana;6217


To be silent.
There are things one does not talk about.
Or with very few people. IME at least.

The longer I am on my path, the less desire I feel to talk about some things.
Funny enough, but true.

Personally I tend to like silence more and more the older I get.


Pretty much this - the more important something is to me the less I am likely to talk about it particularly on occult matters. Some things you need to just experience for yourself. Words just don't hack it and can be misunderstood.

AmberHeart

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Re: Silence
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2011, 08:24:03 am »
Quote from: Stardancer;6210
"To know, to will, to dare and to be silent." I've seen this come up in several different systems of thought and magic. The first three are usually explained easily (though the difference between willing and daring seems slight), but the last one I don't really grok.

On the one hand - talking too much tends to squander energy. I talked and talked and talked about the shop I wanted to open last year. Result: there is no shop. On the other hand - communicating what you want can help open doors. Such as someone in your network can give you a tip about the kind of job you're looking for.

What are your thoughts on this?


When I was learning (some decades back), to be silent meant that a Witch had to use his/her judgement 'at all times' as to what to share, when and with whom.

The roots of 'be silent' go back to the 20th century conception of modern Witchcraft as set against a mythic history of persecution and secrecy. This also refers to the oaths taken by lineaged Witches about speaking to  or sharing with anyone outside his/her Trad about what was oathbound within THAT Trad. It references to going through the experience of a Tradition's Mysteries, which cannot be articulated to others but which in trying, can warp both the experience itself in the mind of the participant as well as leave others with misleading information.

For non-lineaged Witches, to be silent can refer to sharing magical or spiritual knowledge and experience with those who were not trained(i.e. not Witches or magical practitioners), not ready or not far enough along in their own studies to NEED to know. In the former, there was no need for these folks to know this info period and the Witch needed to examine why he/she was considering sharing in the first place (ego for example). In the latter cases, magical and/or spiritual information is often preparatory. You can't understand or appreciate it properly without being prepared, without having the context in which to understand. To be silent means the Witch (with the knowledge) has the responsibility to assess whether the one wanting the information is prepared sufficiently and decide then if it should be shared.

Talking about mundane (though equally important) goals or dreams can as you say squander energy. It is like any magical working, you can shape the dream or goal with words but a Witch needs to anchor those words in actions. So talking about a mundane dream needs equal measures of talk and action at each step of the way to manifest.

Amber
(P.S. To will is about doing, walking one's wisdom walk, performing magical workings, making things happen as a Witch. To dare is to think outside the box (of society, unbringin, etc), to live one's life fully in the face of opposition (to witchcraft, to women etc) and to choose when truly needed to venture into those magical realms that a trained Witch learns to contact.)

Stardancer

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Re: Silence
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2011, 12:25:07 pm »
Quote from: Nyktipolos;6344
Well, the words you list originally hail from the Order of the Golden Dawn with their workings with the Sphinx. This website may help if you're curious to read more where it came from: http://thelemicgoldendawn.net/zelator/sphinxinstruction.htm



Interesting: "If you activate Fire you will vitalize and nourish the power to Dare and you will experience Light; if you activate Water you will vitalize and nourish the power to Keep Silent and you will experience Love; if you activate Air you will vitalize and nourish the power to Know and you will experience Liberty; if you activate Earth you will vitalize and nourish the power to Will and you will experience Life" quoted from that page. They map differently than what Jenett wrote, which is the one I'm familiar with. Bookmarking the page to read in depth. Thanks!

I've found everyone's posts to be very enlightening, and thoroughly enjoying reading through them. In particular, I never considered the listening aspect of silence before, but of course it seems obvious in hindsight..
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http://sidselh.livejournal.com/ Last update 25. oct \'11

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