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Author Topic: The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens  (Read 3927 times)

NibbleKat

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The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens
« on: September 13, 2012, 05:58:24 pm »
Ok, so all my life I've read about the fae in their various shapes and forms, Victorian and pre-Victorian, etc.  I've heard, as many of you might have, that they were once gods before the Christians came along and sort of "corrupted" them or "lessened" them, not in a power sort of way, but in the way that they were explained to those who were converted and those who came after.

As in, where once you'd have had a mountain/hill deity, Christianity came along, and several generations later, because the Pagan gods were taboo in the culture, these hill deities were explained to folks as fairies instead.

And yet, there are many folks today who believe in fairies, who make offerings to them, and experience them in their daily lives.

Which are they experiencing? Are there both deities that have been forgotten because of time and cultural changes, and are "seen" now by people as being fae, even if they are still gods?

Were there fae alongside the ancient gods?

Or something different?

(Or am I not making myself clear?)
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Re: The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2012, 06:25:25 pm »
Quote from: NibbleKat;73829
Ok, so all my life I've read about the fae in their various shapes and forms, Victorian and pre-Victorian, etc.  I've heard, as many of you might have, that they were once gods before the Christians came along and sort of "corrupted" them or "lessened" them, not in a power sort of way, but in the way that they were explained to those who were converted and those who came after.

As in, where once you'd have had a mountain/hill deity, Christianity came along, and several generations later, because the Pagan gods were taboo in the culture, these hill deities were explained to folks as fairies instead.

And yet, there are many folks today who believe in fairies, who make offerings to them, and experience them in their daily lives.

Which are they experiencing? Are there both deities that have been forgotten because of time and cultural changes, and are "seen" now by people as being fae, even if they are still gods?

Were there fae alongside the ancient gods?

Or something different?

(Or am I not making myself clear?)

 

Personally, I find 'deities' to be more powerful (leader) faeries... essentially. Those leaders weren't considered 'gods' or 'goddesses' until much later than when they were initially identified. It makes more sense to me to have various nature spirits which vary in ability and power than it does to have dozens of random individuals popping out of the ether with no connection to each other.

That may have looked like gibberish, I'm pretty tired tonight. If it's confusing, poke me and I'll rephrase. :p

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Re: The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2012, 06:48:15 pm »
Quote from: NibbleKat;73829
Which are they experiencing? Are there both deities that have been forgotten because of time and cultural changes, and are "seen" now by people as being fae, even if they are still gods?

Were there fae alongside the ancient gods?

Or something different?

(Or am I not making myself clear?)

 
(This is all UPG.)

Kiya posted a quote somewhere (I believe it was TC, but it may have been one of her blogs) that talked about humanity and divinity being like stalagmites and stalactites. Humanity reaches up from the ground; divinity reaches down from the sky. Sometimes they connect- the most divine of humanity, the most human of divinity.

People like to make neat little lists and categories and boxes- and they are useful, but only to a point. I have only ever been able to find two categories of use: those entities which had human lives, and those that didn't. Some entities are human and after death become something more than human- they reach up and touch divinity, and become as gods. Others remain beloved, and eventually forgotten, ancestors. The beautiful dead. Some entities start out- well, for lack of a better word, "small", like a single human life- and in whatever way they push past that and become greater.

Parsing out the dead from the gods is often easier, obviously, than parsing out the spirits from the gods; many mythologies state that gods cannot die, and thus could not have been human- but some explicitly make gods of fallen humans. It's messy stuff. And furthermore- aside from a thought experiment- parsing out that difference isn't much use, except on an individual, case-by-case basis, where it has an effect on worship.

I'm not trying to dismiss the conversation or question, by the way- I'm just trying to explain why it's not something that I think about.
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Re: The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2012, 02:10:33 am »
Quote from: NibbleKat;73829


Which are they experiencing? Are there both deities that have been forgotten because of time and cultural changes, and are "seen" now by people as being fae, even if they are still gods?

Were there fae alongside the ancient gods?

Or something different?



Which fairies? Where? At what point? As with all things related to the fairies, the folklore is a massive jumble of stuff. With *some* fairies, it's reasonable to say that they were probably pre-Christian gods who got demoted in the oral/literary tradition (the Tuatha de Danaan are the oft-cited examples of this). But in some times and places, fairies were elided with the dead; in others, they were linked to the popular Victorian-survivalist theory of "ancestral memories of conquered Picts" or whatever; in still others, they were fallen angels; and to top it all off, many folklorists today point out that modern stories of space-alien abductions contain many of the same motifs and follow the same narrative logic as fairy-abduction stories.  You're never going to be able to pin down a singular category definition of what fairies "are," because the answer to that is highly variable within the folklore record.

From a more abstract perspective on human/divine/space between, I love Juni's take on it.

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The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2012, 05:20:58 am »
Quote from: catja6;73878
Which fairies? Where? At what point? As with all things related to the fairies, the folklore is a massive jumble of stuff. With *some* fairies, it's reasonable to say that they were probably pre-Christian gods who got demoted in the oral/literary tradition (the Tuatha de Danaan are the oft-cited examples of this). But in some times and places, fairies were elided with the dead; in others, they were linked to the popular Victorian-survivalist theory of "ancestral memories of conquered Picts" or whatever; in still others, they were fallen angels; and to top it all off, many folklorists today point out that modern stories of space-alien abductions contain many of the same motifs and follow the same narrative logic as fairy-abduction stories.  You're never going to be able to pin down a singular category definition of what fairies "are," because the answer to that is highly variable within the folklore record.

From a more abstract perspective on human/divine/space between, I love Juni's take on it.

I think this is exactly the problem - there's such a jumble of ideas about the 'good folk'. Being from Britain and having an Irish background, I tend to listen to the bits of folklore about keeping away from them as much as possible, but making offerings in acknowledgement (and in a 'you stay in your space, I'll stay in mine' kind of agreement). But that's not how I think of the gods at all. I do think that there are spirits out there with negative intent, or that are so different from us that we experience them negatively, whereas I also experience a lot of land spirits who seem less affronted by my presence (along with some who are affronted).

There are a LOT of legends around here (the Midlands of the UK) of female 'ghosts' in the vicinity of rivers and wells. There's also the legend of Black Annis round these parts. I could believe that some of these legends began as the Church's attempt to demote pagan gods ('your goddess is only a demon/fairy'), but there's a more mystical part of my thinking that wonders if there's something 'else' in these places. There are some places that just feel like they're full of the fae, and they feel very different from gods. Somerset, where there are legends about pixies fighting wars with faeries, is one of those places.
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Re: The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2012, 11:45:19 am »
Quote from: Juni;73841
(This is all UPG.)

Kiya posted a quote somewhere (I believe it was TC, but it may have been one of her blogs) that talked about humanity and divinity being like stalagmites and stalactites. Humanity reaches up from the ground; divinity reaches down from the sky. Sometimes they connect- the most divine of humanity, the most human of divinity.

People like to make neat little lists and categories and boxes- and they are useful, but only to a point. I have only ever been able to find two categories of use: those entities which had human lives, and those that didn't. Some entities are human and after death become something more than human- they reach up and touch divinity, and become as gods. Others remain beloved, and eventually forgotten, ancestors. The beautiful dead. Some entities start out- well, for lack of a better word, "small", like a single human life- and in whatever way they push past that and become greater.

Parsing out the dead from the gods is often easier, obviously, than parsing out the spirits from the gods; many mythologies state that gods cannot die, and thus could not have been human- but some explicitly make gods of fallen humans. It's messy stuff. And furthermore- aside from a thought experiment- parsing out that difference isn't much use, except on an individual, case-by-case basis, where it has an effect on worship.

I'm not trying to dismiss the conversation or question, by the way- I'm just trying to explain why it's not something that I think about.


No, I absolutely didn't think you were dismissing the conversation at all;  I wanted different opinions and outlooks on this topic, since it's... well. Very hard to pin down.   I like the stalactite/stalagmite view, by the way, as well.
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Re: The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2012, 11:49:40 am »
Quote from: catja6;73878
Which fairies? Where? At what point? As with all things related to the fairies, the folklore is a massive jumble of stuff. With *some* fairies, it's reasonable to say that they were probably pre-Christian gods who got demoted in the oral/literary tradition (the Tuatha de Danaan are the oft-cited examples of this). But in some times and places, fairies were elided with the dead; in others, they were linked to the popular Victorian-survivalist theory of "ancestral memories of conquered Picts" or whatever; in still others, they were fallen angels; and to top it all off, many folklorists today point out that modern stories of space-alien abductions contain many of the same motifs and follow the same narrative logic as fairy-abduction stories.  You're never going to be able to pin down a singular category definition of what fairies "are," because the answer to that is highly variable within the folklore record.

From a more abstract perspective on human/divine/space between, I love Juni's take on it.


 No, I don't expect entirely to pin down what they are-- if that were possible, then it would have been done by now.  :(  However, for me, having other folks bounce their ideas off of me, having people who might have a little shred of historical reference/evidence for this, that, or the other... well.  That's clarifying, and in some cases, of course, muddying, my idea of the fae (and I suppose I should have stated more clearly the more popular British/Euro fae, which it seems that many people I have known have talked about).   I am trying to figure them out myself, and threads like this, and people like you help immensely.

So.  Ideas! Thoughts! Mints! *gimme fists*

What's your take on the alien abduction line, anyway?
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Re: The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2012, 02:01:09 pm »
Quote from: NibbleKat;73899
No, I absolutely didn't think you were dismissing the conversation at all;  I wanted different opinions and outlooks on this topic, since it's... well. Very hard to pin down.   I like the stalactite/stalagmite view, by the way, as well.

 
I found it: Kiya's post Sacred Kings Just Ain’t What They Used To Be. The stalagmite/stalactite imagery/quote is from Kaldera’s Dealing with Deities: Practical Polytheistic Theology.
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Re: The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2012, 02:21:35 pm »
Quote from: Sophia Catherine;73884

There are a LOT of legends around here (the Midlands of the UK) of female 'ghosts' in the vicinity of rivers and wells. There's also the legend of Black Annis round these parts. I could believe that some of these legends began as the Church's attempt to demote pagan gods ('your goddess is only a demon/fairy'), but there's a more mystical part of my thinking that wonders if there's something 'else' in these places. There are some places that just feel like they're full of the fae, and they feel very different from gods. Somerset, where there are legends about pixies fighting wars with faeries, is one of those places.

 
This is the thing I am curious about; I know, as I said above, that there were many "demoted" pagan gods;  but they can't all be that, can they? Even if there were a plethora of deities for what it SEEMS like every hill, stream, and mountain.  

My husband is originally from the Midlands, and I wish I could talk to him about the fae, but he's an atheist, and just won't have any of it.

For the Somerset legends, have you read anything at all about what the origins of these tales would be?
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Re: The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 02:22:24 pm »
Quote from: Juni;73912
I found it: Kiya's post Sacred Kings Just Ain’t What They Used To Be. The stalagmite/stalactite imagery/quote is from Kaldera’s Dealing with Deities: Practical Polytheistic Theology.

 
THank you! *eats that quote*

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Re: The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2012, 02:28:01 pm »
Quote from: NibbleKat;73829
Ok, so all my life I've read about the fae in their various shapes and forms, Victorian and pre-Victorian, etc.  I've heard, as many of you might have, that they were once gods before the Christians came along and sort of "corrupted" them or "lessened" them, not in a power sort of way, but in the way that they were explained to those who were converted and those who came after.

As in, where once you'd have had a mountain/hill deity, Christianity came along, and several generations later, because the Pagan gods were taboo in the culture, these hill deities were explained to folks as fairies instead.

And yet, there are many folks today who believe in fairies, who make offerings to them, and experience them in their daily lives.

Which are they experiencing? Are there both deities that have been forgotten because of time and cultural changes, and are "seen" now by people as being fae, even if they are still gods?

Were there fae alongside the ancient gods?

Or something different?


In my UPG and in my interpretation of the myths, the Fair Folk/Aes Sidhe seem to have always been distinguished from the gods, even if they are very similar and intermarry. There are the Tuatha De Danaan, who are the Irish gods: The Tuatha De are tied to specific places, and often very human concepts. The Boyne River was created by Boann the goddess, and her son Aengus lives in the Brú na Bóinne; the Morrigan's "gardens" are battlefields; the Paps of Danu are reputed to be the silhouette of Danu; Ogma created the Ogham.

Compare that to the Fair Folk, who live in "smaller" places; one of the Aes Sidhe could live IN the Boyne, and receive offerings at the bend or pool that they live in. However, s/he would not protect the entire river, and certainly did not create it like Boann. The Folk are met in "forests" and dwell in "hills," many of which are unnamed aside from a general location.

It seems to me that they're a midway point between humans and gods, because while they can die, it's never of natural causes--always from battle or grief/loss.

And while the gods can understand human ways and thoughts, many of the Folk cannot. I refused to jump into the sea when some of the Fair Folk "called" me to do it, because I would have drowned. Some of them listened to my explanation, but they didn't stop another of their number from shooting me for turning them down. Aengus told me that "It doesn't matter why you refused--it's still an insult."

And I asked him, "What? WHY?" and he explained that the Folk can't grasp the idea of self-preservation because, well, they don't HAVE it in the first place. They don't have the fear of death or harm, because they can't die of natural causes, because they don't have physical bodies that they need to keep intact. And while the gods can understand self-preservation because they're "humans but bigger (with some differing points)," the Folk aren't human at all aside from their shape.
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Re: The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2012, 03:09:37 pm »
Quote from: NibbleKat;73917
For the Somerset legends, have you read anything at all about what the origins of these tales would be?

No, unfortunately. My interest in these legends is recent, so I've only recently heard about this kind of thing. My dad moved to Somerset a couple of years ago and that's when I first started hearing about it, but I haven't found any really good books on that kind of thing yet. I've run across some fun encyclopedias of legends from the UK, but they tend to be so chock-full of information that they don't go into depth on much. There are entries for piskies (Cornish) and pixies (from Somerset and other places) in Marc Alexander's 'A Companion to the Folklore, Myths and Customs of Britain', but both are quite brief (although really interesting - people were still asking favours of the piskies after the Second World War).

If you like Midlands legends, a good survey of very local (to me) stuff is 'Ghosts and Legends of Nottinghamshire' by David Haslem. There are similar books for lots of other local areas (I think Lincolnshire is where Black Annis is mainly attested). If I come across other good ones I'll let you know!
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 03:10:10 pm by Naomi J »
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Re: The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2012, 03:51:30 pm »
Quote from: Sharysa;73921



And while the gods can understand human ways and thoughts, many of the Folk cannot. I refused to jump into the sea when some of the Fair Folk "called" me to do it, because I would have drowned. Some of them listened to my explanation, but they didn't stop another of their number from shooting me for turning them down. Aengus told me that "It doesn't matter why you refused--it's still an insult."

And I asked him, "What? WHY?" and he explained that the Folk can't grasp the idea of self-preservation because, well, they don't HAVE it in the first place. They don't have the fear of death or harm, because they can't die of natural causes, because they don't have physical bodies that they need to keep intact. And while the gods can understand self-preservation because they're "humans but bigger (with some differing points)," the Folk aren't human at all aside from their shape.

 
I think that this is a very, very interesting point for you to have made.  It definitely is a good argument for the fae to be different from "demoted" gods, I think.  It's not to say that deities can't treat humans in a careless, unfeeling manner, but the fact that (at least from what I've read) your point about the fae is seen so much in stories with them than any stories about the gods (or UPG for that matter), that it does lend itself toward the separation of the two types of beings.
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Re: The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2012, 03:56:16 pm »
Quote from: Sophia Catherine;73922
No, unfortunately. My interest in these legends is recent, so I've only recently heard about this kind of thing. My dad moved to Somerset a couple of years ago and that's when I first started hearing about it, but I haven't found any really good books on that kind of thing yet. I've run across some fun encyclopedias of legends from the UK, but they tend to be so chock-full of information that they don't go into depth on much. There are entries for piskies (Cornish) and pixies (from Somerset and other places) in Marc Alexander's 'A Companion to the Folklore, Myths and Customs of Britain', but both are quite brief (although really interesting - people were still asking favours of the piskies after the Second World War).

If you like Midlands legends, a good survey of very local (to me) stuff is 'Ghosts and Legends of Nottinghamshire' by David Haslem. There are similar books for lots of other local areas (I think Lincolnshire is where Black Annis is mainly attested). If I come across other good ones I'll let you know!

 
I think it was catja6 (who posted in this thread earlier) who recommended this book to me:

The Lore of the Land: A Guide to England's Legends, from Spring-Heeled Jack to the Witches of Warboys by Jennifer Westwood

And it has been utterly amazing! I would say that if you can get it, go for it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0141021039/ref=fb_lfb_prodpg_10

It not only has info about the fae, but pretty much anything folklore related that you could possibly think of, and there's a lot of researched evidence from where these tales originated, the misleading "info" that's out there about them, etc.  It goes region by region, and the good thing about it is that you can start to see the patterns of one town's tale that's almost the same as the next town's tale that's almost the same as the next county over's tale which came from X bit of history.
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The Fae, The Gods, and the In-Betweens
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2012, 05:09:35 pm »
Quote from: NibbleKat;73925
I think it was catja6 (who posted in this thread earlier) who recommended this book to me:

The Lore of the Land: A Guide to England's Legends, from Spring-Heeled Jack to the Witches of Warboys by Jennifer Westwood

And it has been utterly amazing! I would say that if you can get it, go for it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0141021039/ref=fb_lfb_prodpg_10

It not only has info about the fae, but pretty much anything folklore related that you could possibly think of, and there's a lot of researched evidence from where these tales originated, the misleading "info" that's out there about them, etc.  It goes region by region, and the good thing about it is that you can start to see the patterns of one town's tale that's almost the same as the next town's tale that's almost the same as the next county over's tale which came from X bit of history.

Oh, that sounds fascinating - I'll have a look at it. Thank you!
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