The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

Koi did a much better version of this, but I don't have the link handy at the moment. So you get my significantly condensed version! (Sorry.)

There is no evidence that the date of Christmas was chosen to deliberately coincide with any pagan holidays. While there is no evidence of Jesus being born in December, the 25th does line up very neatly with his proposed date of conception, making his perfect gestational period yet another perfect thing about him. It's not until the 600s, under Pope Gregory the Great, that we have any evidence of deliberate supplantation of pagan practice, and Christmas was already being celebrated in December at that point.

The date of Easter is based on the date of Pesach/Passover, which is a Jewish holiday. The name Easter may have connection with Oestara, but not the date itself.

Halloween is a secular holiday, derived from the Christian holiday of All Hallow's Eve, which is the night before All Hallow's Day/All Saints Day. The holiday was originally in May but was moved to November 1 by Pope Gregory IV, but there is no consensus as to his reasoning.

It is very important to note that life, and therefore religion, does not exist in a vacuum nor in tidy little boxes. The traditions of a community hold fast, and as many conversations on this very forum demonstrate, people are inclined to reinterpret or apply additional meaning to symbols and ideas that they have long held in the face of change. Just because a group adds a new gloss to something important to them doesn't make it institutionally sanctioned or deliberately malicious.

 
Ok, thank you!  I suppose it makes at least as much sense that pagans or former pagans incorporated their symbology into Christian holidays, as that Christians did it.  If I understand  your final paragraph correctly.

Ok, thank you!  I suppose it makes at least as much sense that pagans or former pagans incorporated their symbology into Christian holidays, as that Christians did it.  If I understand  your final paragraph correctly.

 
I would just like to note that my post is massively simplified on the detail end, and there are much better explanations out there but I don't have the links or the spoons to go link digging. But yes, you did understand it correctly.

This is a thing I see a lot in Wicca/wiccish 101 books; this idea that similarities are stolen! and maliciously so. Like there was some group of cackling Christians, rubbing their hands together Mr. Burns-style, gleefully stamping out paganism and then stealing and co-opting whatever wouldn't crush under their feet. (It also seems to come with a free membership to the Persecution Club.)

Snark aside, this very black and white idea ignores two very important things. One, as I mentioned, is the natural course of cultural exchange. Yes, in some cases it was expedited, perhaps by the overzealous or the malicious. But it's mostly because people adapt to change, and think critically, and apply their extant knowledge base in a new and useful way.

The other thing it ignores is that these symbols, these days on a calendar, are utterly arbitrary on their own. Yes, someone can get bent out of shape about Christians "stealing" a practice or a holy day date. It doesn't make the practice or date less holy for the Christians. The original form of something is not the only valid one; if it were, we'd all be screwed, because words are nothing more than sounds and marks on a page representing something else, and those words have changed over and over and over through the course of human history.

We adapt, we borrow, we expand, we grow. To think that this is valid, acceptable, desirable in every aspect of our lives except our religions is just... incomprehensible to me, really.

The date of Easter is based on the date of Pesach/Passover, which is a Jewish holiday. The name Easter may have connection with Oestara, but not the date itself.

 
And 'Easter' in basically almost every language OTHER THAN ENGLISH has a name referring to Passover, which means it is harder for pagans to be ignorant about the whole actual relevance of Judaism to Christianity in other languages.

Conveniently, last time this came up, I did the uncondensed version, including link to Koi's original, and a bunch additional data.

It's on my website over here: http://gleewood.org/seeking/broader-questions/holidays-history-and-calendars/

It's also in a slightly less edited form in the most recent thread on this on the forum (the link is to a few posts before that, which has some additional info of possible interest - the whole thread has useful tidbits.)

Great article!  Downloading it for future reference.  I admit I gave up reading the thread after it devolved into repetitive argument.

I am impressed and awed by the overall scholarship of members of this board.  Y'all make me feel dumb . . . which is fine, because I won't stay dumb!

I would just like to note that my post is massively simplified on the detail end, and there are much better explanations out there but I don't have the links or the spoons to go link digging...

But it is "Excellent" nonetheless.

Halloween is a secular holiday, derived from the Christian holiday of All Hallow's Eve, which is the night before All Hallow's Day/All Saints Day. The holiday was originally in May but was moved to November 1 by Pope Gregory IV, but there is no consensus as to his reasoning.

Interestingly, and I cannot recall where exactly I originally found it, I've heard a hypothesis that the day-of-the-dead aspects we ascribe to All Hallow's Eve and its associated holidays, i.e. modern Samhain, are mostly original to Christianity and aren't necessarily a continuation of ancient Samhain.