Author Topic: Being a Pagan without believing in Pagan deities (Read 21140 times)

Kyndyl · « **Reply #30 on:** August 10, 2014, 03:28:14 pm »

Quote from: broomstick;61018

Thanks mooncrone! All of you have given very helpful answers but I really enjoyed reading this. In the past when I became interested in Paganism, I felt that I was a Pantheist, and still do. It is my understanding that Pantheists simply consider the universe and nature and all in it to be connected and one. I wouldn't consider that a God, but I guess if you really wanted to call it that you could. The more I learn about the Pagan religion the more I like. You can pretty much mold it into what ever fits you. My library has no books on Paganism (but seem to have it one every other religion lol), and I can't really buy any right now for a few reasons (I live in a Christian home, you know the story). Does anoyone know of some good articles or pages online about Neopaganism and what it's like, what they do, etc? Thanks!

reading this reminded me of one of my favorite quotes" We all believe in something greater than ourselves, even if it’s just the blind forces of chance."-G'kar, Babylon 5. *and yes, almost everything reminds me of quotes from babylon 5**

when you really think about it.. pagan at it's simplest= non-christian. it was a term to slam the people who lived outside the cities and weren't as "developed" as the good christians in the cities. So yeah you can be pagan and not believe in Gods or Goddesses.. As for the difference between Pantheist, polytheist, animist or any other terms.. that's a swamp I'm not treading into

veggiewolf · « **Reply #31 on:** August 12, 2014, 12:27:52 pm »

Quote from: Atehequa;155298

Crossed wires or crossing paths?

Could be both?

I also, on my eternal Words Mean Things path, probably should have replaced 'religions' with either 'beliefs' or 'practices'...or even both. That would make my statement more accurate:

Keep in mind that Paganism is not one religion; it is made up of a group of beliefs and/or practices that may or may not have anything in common with one another.

Yeah, I like that better.

PrincessKLS · « **Reply #32 on:** September 10, 2014, 01:00:33 pm »

Quote from: broomstick;60948

Hi all,

I really need to post here more, I've just been a little busy lately. Any way, I might as well jump in my question. I have been somewhere between an atheist and agnostic for the past few years now. I'm very skeptical on sunjects like gods, the paranormal, etc. To be honest, I do not really believe in any Pagan deities. I don't believe in any gods/goddesses really. I don't know if this would make me a Pantheist or what, but I have been drawn to the Pagan religion for the past year but am still learing. Is it possible to be a Pagan without the belief in any deities? Deos anyone share these beliefs? Also, if I didn't believe in any deities, would that simply make it a philosophy?

I was basically like that for a long time, I am a Christopagan after all.
To me, paganism was about free will, true free will. But I've sense learned differently.

LumberingLumberjack · « **Reply #33 on:** September 24, 2014, 10:04:10 am »

Quote from: broomstick;60948

Hi all,

I really need to post here more, I've just been a little busy lately. Any way, I might as well jump in my question. I have been somewhere between an atheist and agnostic for the past few years now. I'm very skeptical on sunjects like gods, the paranormal, etc. To be honest, I do not really believe in any Pagan deities. I don't believe in any gods/goddesses really. I don't know if this would make me a Pantheist or what, but I have been drawn to the Pagan religion for the past year but am still learing. Is it possible to be a Pagan without the belief in any deities? Deos anyone share these beliefs? Also, if I didn't believe in any deities, would that simply make it a philosophy?

I would say that in many ways "Pagan" is a term with give ourselves, it doesn't really imply a belief in a particular path, of even a belief in deity. One of the things that surprised me at my first OBOD gathering was the number of people who identified as Agnostic or Atheist, but still looked at their worldview as a distinctly Pagan one.

Maponos · « **Reply #34 on:** October 12, 2014, 03:03:54 pm »

Quote from: broomstick;60948

Hi all,

I really need to post here more, I've just been a little busy lately. Any way, I might as well jump in my question. I have been somewhere between an atheist and agnostic for the past few years now. I'm very skeptical on sunjects like gods, the paranormal, etc. To be honest, I do not really believe in any Pagan deities. I don't believe in any gods/goddesses really. I don't know if this would make me a Pantheist or what, but I have been drawn to the Pagan religion for the past year but am still learing. Is it possible to be a Pagan without the belief in any deities? Deos anyone share these beliefs? Also, if I didn't believe in any deities, would that simply make it a philosophy?

Being a pagan (following one of the old faiths of Pre-Christian Europe or elsewhere) generally requires you believe in the paranormal/supernatural because the people who followed those faiths at the time were very connected to the supernatural.

I can't quite understand how one could follow a pagan faith and be atheist. They're mutually exclusive. There really aren't any pagan philosophies (unless you count the classical philosophers of antiquity) in the organised religion sense either.

carillion · « **Reply #35 on:** October 12, 2014, 04:16:28 pm »

Quote from: Maponos;161996

Being a pagan (following one of the old faiths of Pre-Christian Europe or elsewhere) generally requires you believe in the paranormal/supernatural because the people who followed those faiths at the time were very connected to the supernatural.

I can't quite understand how one could follow a pagan faith and be atheist. They're mutually exclusive. There really aren't any pagan philosophies (unless you count the classical philosophers of antiquity) in the organised religion sense either.

And why can't an atheist believe in the paranormal or be interested in the supernatural? Inquiry knows ( or should know) no religious boundries.

I'd be interested in what you think counts as 'philosophy' if you can so easily despense with those of the pre-Christian era. Theologians today still have to study them as so much of 'Western' thought and education was/is based on them.

And atheists aren't interested in philosophies that depend on organized religion (as I think you mean it) to inform them. They are easily despensed with if one does not consider deity as existing . That does not leave one impoverished for ideas or fundamental core beliefs.

The term 'paganism' does not connote religion as far as I know.

NightQueen · « **Reply #36 on:** October 12, 2014, 04:51:45 pm »

Quote from: Maponos;161996

Being a pagan (following one of the old faiths of Pre-Christian Europe or elsewhere) generally requires you believe in the paranormal/supernatural because the people who followed those faiths at the time were very connected to the supernatural.

I can't quite understand how one could follow a pagan faith and be atheist. They're mutually exclusive. There really aren't any pagan philosophies (unless you count the classical philosophers of antiquity) in the organised religion sense either.

Being pagan does not equal practicing a pre-Christian faith. It equals practicing a faith that is not Judeo-Christian and self-identifying as pagan. Wicca is a (neo)pagan religion and it is certainly not pre-Christian.

I'm not an atheist, but I am a bit ambivalent about what I believe about gods(desses). I certainly believe in the supernatural. Atheists reject a belief in any gods it doesn't mean they don't believe in anything else supernatural.

Maponos · « **Reply #37 on:** October 12, 2014, 06:02:09 pm »

Quote from: carillion;162017

And why can't an atheist believe in the paranormal or be interested in the supernatural? Inquiry knows ( or should know) no religious boundries.

As you should know, gods of ancient faiths are heavily linked to the supernatural. Questioning how a god exists isn't bad, but believing they don't exist would be highly insulting to them and the given tradition.

Quote

I'd be interested in what you think counts as 'philosophy' if you can so easily despense with those of the pre-Christian era. Theologians today still have to study them as so much of 'Western' thought and education was/is based on them.

Well, when most people think of philosophy or ancient philosophers, they usually think of ancient Greek and other classical philosophers. Not many of them did any actual thinking of religious matters (though some certainly did). It's like saying a person who was a philosopher was a Christian philosopher just because his religion was Chrsitianity.

The closest thing I can come to as a sort of pagan philosopher is a druid, if the Roman historians are correct in their writings.

Quote

And atheists aren't interested in philosophies that depend on organized religion (as I think you mean it) to inform them. They are easily despensed with if one does not consider deity as existing . That does not leave one impoverished for ideas or fundamental core beliefs.

The thing about most pagan religions, though, is that they didn't have a set moral standard based on the religion. Most, if not all, pagan (or non-Christian) societies had a utilitarian morality/philosophy that may have been influenced by religion, but not heavily so.

Quote

The term 'paganism' does not connote religion as far as I know.

If it doesn't refer pre-Christian religions, then what does it refer to?

Quote from: NightQueen;162024

Being pagan does not equal practicing a pre-Christian faith. It equals practicing a faith that is not Judeo-Christian and self-identifying as pagan. Wicca is a (neo)pagan religion and it is certainly not pre-Christian.

Most non European, non Christian faiths probably wouldn't take to being called pagan, so that's why most people use it to refer to pre-Christian European religions exclusively. It's just a matter of respect.

Still- it's about a faith and faiths have god(s).

Quote

I'm not an atheist, but I am a bit ambivalent about what I believe about gods(desses). I certainly believe in the supernatural. Atheists reject a belief in any gods it doesn't mean they don't believe in anything else supernatural.

But gods are supernatural.

NightQueen · « **Reply #38 on:** October 12, 2014, 06:59:47 pm »

Quote from: Maponos;162030

Most non European, non Christian faiths probably wouldn't take to being called pagan, so that's why most people use it to refer to pre-Christian European religions exclusively. It's just a matter of respect.

Still- it's about a faith and faiths have god(s).

But gods are supernatural.

Hence why I said a pagan is someone who practices a non Judeo-Christian religion AND self identifies as pagan. If someone doesn't consider themselves pagan, I don't call them that.

Not all religions have gods. Buddhism (depending on what form and the person practicing it) can be non-theistic. Is it not a religion?

There are supernatural entities and occurrences that have nothing to do with gods. You can believe in them without believing in gods.

HeartShadow · « **Reply #39 on:** October 12, 2014, 07:13:36 pm »

Quote from: Maponos;162030

I've a few things here -

1) Pagan does not mean /a/ faith - it is an umbrella term for many different religions. Some are preChristian. some are not. There's a wide variety represented here. We don't exclude based on age of the religion!

2) Gods being supernatural - what do you mean by supernatural here? Personally, I see gods as /part/ of nature - not separate. Supernatural would be, like, a ghost or the monster under the bed.

3) Socrates talked about religion. That's off the top of my head, without actually hunting. If I can come up with one Greek religious philosopher without even trying, imagine how many I'd find if I hunted! Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they're not there.

Maponos · « **Reply #40 on:** October 12, 2014, 07:22:15 pm »

Quote from: NightQueen;162038

Not all religions have gods. Buddhism (depending on what form and the person practicing it) can be non-theistic. Is it not a religion?

It's rather debatable, I think. I know of a lot of Buddhists who swear up and down they follow a philosophy and not a religion.

Quote

There are supernatural entities and occurrences that have nothing to do with gods. You can believe in them without believing in gods.

Well, if you view the supernatural in a more primal sense (animistic, basically) then the line between god and supernatural is thin/non-existent.

carillion · « **Reply #41 on:** October 12, 2014, 07:32:42 pm »

Quote from: Maponos;162046

Well, if you view the supernatural in a more primal sense (animistic, basically) then the line between god and supernatural is thin/non-existent.

No, there is no line because one doesn't believe gods exist. If I don't believe in deity, why would I think things supernatural or paranormal are foundational to those beliefs?

carillion · « **Reply #42 on:** October 12, 2014, 07:46:50 pm »

Quote from: Maponos;162030

As you should know, gods of ancient faiths are heavily linked to the supernatural. Questioning how a god exists isn't bad, but believing they don't exist would be highly insulting to them and the given tradition.

Well, when most people think of philosophy or ancient philosophers, they usually think of ancient Greek and other classical philosophers. Not many of them did any actual thinking of religious matters (though some certainly did). It's like saying a person who was a philosopher was a Christian philosopher just because his religion was Chrsitianity.

The closest thing I can come to as a sort of pagan philosopher is a druid, if the Roman historians are correct in their writings.

The thing about most pagan religions, though, is that they didn't have a set moral standard based on the religion. Most, if not all, pagan (or non-Christian) societies had a utilitarian morality/philosophy that may have been influenced by religion, but not heavily so.

Most non European, non Christian faiths probably wouldn't take to being called pagan, so that's why most people use it to refer to pre-Christian European religions exclusively. It's just a matter of respect.

Still- it's about a faith and faiths have god(s).

But gods are supernatural.

I don't worry myself too much about insulting things I don't think exist. I'm sensing you are making a value judgement here since words such as 'insult' presuppose someone to receive the insult.

We have no idea what the Druid's philosophy might have been - they left no record. As for ancient philosophers, I really think you should read more if you don't think they considered religious subjects worthy of discourse.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'utilitarian'. Most of the laws of Europe (and those colonies based in European countries) were based on Roman and Greek laws . They dealt with highly nuanced ethical situations and were deemed robust enough to last a very long time indeed. Something that was strictly 'utilitarian' would not be flexible enough to be applied outside of a local situation as those laws were. These laws sprang from philosophical/ethical tenets and beliefs.

I have faith the sun will rise tomorrow, that doesn't require a god though some could decide it does. That doesn't change my beliefs.

The term supernatural may be a way of defining deity, but the supernatural does not require the inclusion of deity to be defined. It's a matter of choice, really.

NightQueen · « **Reply #43 on:** October 12, 2014, 07:47:27 pm »

Quote from: Maponos;162046

It's rather debatable, I think. I know of a lot of Buddhists who swear up and down they follow a philosophy and not a religion.

And some call it a religion, at this point it's rather splitting hairs. My point is there are non-theistic religions. God doesn't equal religion.

Quote from:

Well, if you view the supernatural in a more primal sense (animistic, basically) then the line between god and supernatural is thin/non-existent.

I know quite a few people who practice magic who consider themselves atheists. Would you not consider magic supernatural?

Darkhawk · « **Reply #44 on:** October 12, 2014, 07:51:10 pm »

Quote from: Maponos;161996

Being a pagan (following one of the old faiths of Pre-Christian Europe or elsewhere) generally requires you believe in the paranormal/supernatural because the people who followed those faiths at the time were very connected to the supernatural.

"Supernatural" is as far as I'm concerned one of those fancy words for "shit that doesn't exist".

The gods are not supernatural. They're right there, not removed into imaginaryland.

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Author Topic: Being a Pagan without believing in Pagan deities (Read 21140 times)

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