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Author Topic: Open-System Objectivism (Randian)  (Read 9609 times)

StudiodeKadent

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Open-System Objectivism (Randian)
« on: June 12, 2012, 02:34:58 am »
[Mod Note: I've moved this thread from the Introductions board to the Philosophy and Metaphysics board. It started as an introduction, but quickly focused on discussing Open-System Objectivist (Randian) philosophy. -- Randall]

Hi,

Well, as stated, I'm not a practicioner of any form of Pagan religion. I'm an Open-System Objectivist (Randian, but of the non-cultish variety). So I'm an atheist, at least as I understand the term.

But I have Pagan friends and have discussed Pagan spirituality. Anton LaVey once claimed his version of Satanism was "Ayn Rand with trappings" (I strongly disagree.. the Seventh Satanic Statement completely contradicts Objectivist theories of human nature and proper human relations). What I've read about the Temple of Set, at least in terms of its philosophy, seems absolutely akin to Rand's ideas about certain religions (present companies excepted) being based on a hatred of human intellect. I also respect the work of Eric S. Raymond, a Pagan and founder of the open-source movement (he's also a free-market anarchist and I found his essay "The Myth Of Man The Killer" to be one of the most amazing things I have ever read).

Finally, I read an Asatru prayer... the Asatru vision of the relationship between man and the divine is something I find quite beautiful. Compared to the self-debasing "grovel-spirituality" we get out of the Abrahamic Monotheisms (I apologize if this is considered offensive, but, well, is there really any inoffensive way to say you find Abrahamic Monotheistic spirituality to be self-debasing?), that prayer was truly inspirational. The idea that human strength, greatness and worthiness is encouraged by rather than punished by the divine is not just beautiful, but utterly revolutionary (it spits in the face of the Abrahamic view... as well as IIRC the classical Hellenic view (with the whole myth of Prometheus, Hubris-Nemesis etc)).

So as a result I started reading up on various kinds of what are loosely called Neo-Pagan belief systems. I found plenty of interesting material, some stuff I agree with, some stuff I disagree with.

Hence me coming here for, well, discussion and conversation. I hope nothing offensive happens and hopefully we can all learn something from talking with each other, etc. etc.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 05:17:15 pm by RandallS »

Aster Breo

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Open-System Objectivism (Randian)
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2012, 02:47:11 am »
Quote from: StudiodeKadent;59607
The idea that human strength, greatness and worthiness is encouraged by rather than punished by the divine is not just beautiful, but utterly revolutionary

I think you'll find that this idea is hardly revolutionary among the people who post here regularly.

My personal experience with Deity has been very much about helping me to develop my own strengths, overcome my weaknesses and challenges, and just be a better and more effective tool.  I know that's pretty common around here at TC, although probably not common among the general population.  ;)

~ Aster
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StudiodeKadent

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Re: Non-Pagan Interested In Discussion
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2012, 02:52:53 am »
Quote from: Aster Breo;59609
I think you'll find that this idea is hardly revolutionary among the people who post here regularly.

My personal experience with Deity has been very much about helping me to develop my own strengths, overcome my weaknesses and challenges, and just be a better and more effective tool.  I know that's pretty common around here at TC, although probably not common among the general population.  ;)

~ Aster


Aster,

Thanks! Yeah, I meant within the general population and the most prominent and influential religious traditions. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

I'm glad to hear a pro-pride, non-grovel attitude is common around here :)

Elani Temperance

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Re: Non-Pagan Interested In Discussion
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2012, 03:32:39 am »
Quote from: StudiodeKadent;59607
Hi,

Well, as stated, I'm not a practicioner of any form of Pagan religion. I'm an Open-System Objectivist (Randian, but of the non-cultish variety). So I'm an atheist, at least as I understand the term.

But I have Pagan friends and have discussed Pagan spirituality. Anton LaVey once claimed his version of Satanism was "Ayn Rand with trappings" (I strongly disagree.. the Seventh Satanic Statement completely contradicts Objectivist theories of human nature and proper human relations). What I've read about the Temple of Set, at least in terms of its philosophy, seems absolutely akin to Rand's ideas about certain religions (present companies excepted) being based on a hatred of human intellect. I also respect the work of Eric S. Raymond, a Pagan and founder of the open-source movement (he's also a free-market anarchist and I found his essay "The Myth Of Man The Killer" to be one of the most amazing things I have ever read).

Finally, I read an Asatru prayer... the Asatru vision of the relationship between man and the divine is something I find quite beautiful. Compared to the self-debasing "grovel-spirituality" we get out of the Abrahamic Monotheisms (I apologize if this is considered offensive, but, well, is there really any inoffensive way to say you find Abrahamic Monotheistic spirituality to be self-debasing?), that prayer was truly inspirational. The idea that human strength, greatness and worthiness is encouraged by rather than punished by the divine is not just beautiful, but utterly revolutionary (it spits in the face of the Abrahamic view... as well as IIRC the classical Hellenic view (with the whole myth of Prometheus, Hubris-Nemesis etc)).

So as a result I started reading up on various kinds of what are loosely called Neo-Pagan belief systems. I found plenty of interesting material, some stuff I agree with, some stuff I disagree with.

Hence me coming here for, well, discussion and conversation. I hope nothing offensive happens and hopefully we can all learn something from talking with each other, etc. etc.

 
Woa... I read your introduction at least five times and I still only get about half you're going on about. Welcome to the Cauldron. If you have questions for us, feel free to post them about the boards or here. Else, I'm looking forward to hearing your side of things on existing boards.
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StudiodeKadent

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Re: Non-Pagan Interested In Discussion
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2012, 03:43:43 am »
Quote from: Elani Temperance;59617
Woa... I read your introduction at least five times and I still only get about half you're going on about. Welcome to the Cauldron. If you have questions for us, feel free to post them about the boards or here. Else, I'm looking forward to hearing your side of things on existing boards.

 
Thanks for the warm welcome! I'm sorry if I wasn't really clear. You can always send me a PM if you'd like to ask anything!

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Re: Non-Pagan Interested In Discussion
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2012, 04:10:21 am »
Quote from: StudiodeKadent;59618
Thanks for the warm welcome! I'm sorry if I wasn't really clear. You can always send me a PM if you'd like to ask anything!

 
I think you were completely clear, just not to me ;)

I know nothing of Satanism or the Temple of Set and much of the other things you spoke about. Honestly, if that was the width of your foray into (Neo-)Paganims, the Cauldron is going to blow your mind.  

Enjoy your stay here and I'm sure I'll have questions for you throughout your time here! Atheism is completely foreign to me.
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StudiodeKadent

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Re: Non-Pagan Interested In Discussion
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2012, 04:16:59 am »
Quote from: Elani Temperance;59621
I think you were completely clear, just not to me ;)

I know nothing of Satanism or the Temple of Set and much of the other things you spoke about. Honestly, if that was the width of your foray into (Neo-)Paganims, the Cauldron is going to blow your mind.  

Enjoy your stay here and I'm sure I'll have questions for you throughout your time here! Atheism is completely foreign to me.


Excellent! I look forward to any questions/comments/feedback from you. And again, my gratitude for your warm welcome.

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Re: Non-Pagan Interested In Discussion
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2012, 05:56:24 am »
Quote from: StudiodeKadent;59623
...

Greetings!
 
Quote
Finally, I read an Asatru prayer... the Asatru vision of the relationship between man and the divine is something I find quite beautiful.

Hmm.  :confused:  'Beautiful' is an odd term coming from a professed atheist.  Care to elaborate?  

Quote
Compared to the self-debasing "grovel-spirituality" we get out of the Abrahamic Monotheisms (I apologize if this is considered offensive, but, well, is there really any inoffensive way to say you find Abrahamic Monotheistic spirituality to be self-debasing?).

No offence taken here.  What you call 'grovelling' might otherwise be called 'humility' depending on POV.  Just to point that out.  

Quote
some stuff I agree with, some stuff I disagree with

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StudiodeKadent

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Re: Non-Pagan Interested In Discussion
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2012, 06:16:57 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;59641
Greetings!


Thank you!

Quote
Hmm.  :confused:  'Beautiful' is an odd term coming from a professed atheist.  Care to elaborate?


Odd? I don't think so. Atheism means you don't believe in gods (although there are problems over what kind of entity constitutes a "god" but yes, that's a different matter). Nothing in atheism prevents one from recognizing beauty. Even religious artwork... plenty of atheists find religious music beautiful (Christopher Hitchens, for one).

That said, I understand if you're surprised that I found the Asatru picture of the proper relationship between man and the divine beautiful. What I mean is that I like how it doesn't debase, demean or diminish humanity, nor does it demand humility or acceptance of inferiority. Rather, it encourages human greatness.

Quote
No offence taken here.  What you call 'grovelling' might otherwise be called 'humility' depending on POV.  Just to point that out.


You're correct. But my value system isn't particularly fond of humility.

MadZealot

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Re: Non-Pagan Interested In Discussion
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2012, 06:27:21 am »
Quote
Odd? I don't think so. Atheism means you don't believe in gods (although there are problems over what kind of entity constitutes a "god" but yes, that's a different matter). Nothing in atheism prevents one from recognizing beauty. Even religious artwork... plenty of atheists find religious music beautiful (Christopher Hitchens, for one).

That said, I understand if you're surprised that I found the Asatru picture of the proper relationship between man and the divine beautiful. What I mean is that I like how it doesn't debase, demean or diminish humanity, nor does it demand humility or acceptance of inferiority. Rather, it encourages human greatness.
Quite.  In my experience Atheism equates antitheism which is a whole 'nuther ball o'yarn.  Not exactly what you're presenting I think.

Another thing than that I can say is  that belief systems don't always to exist with the intent to demean Man-- even the "Abrahamic" ones-- when viewed within proper context.  More like an observaion of the Natural Order... no different from your entrylevel Sciences in many ways.

Quote
You're correct. But my value system isn't particularly fond of humility.
Ooooo... now this is interestig.  Why not?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 06:28:05 am by MadZealot »
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Re: Non-Pagan Interested In Discussion
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2012, 06:42:14 am »
Quote from: StudiodeKadent;59644
That said, I understand if you're surprised that I found the Asatru picture of the proper relationship between man and the divine beautiful. What I mean is that I like how it doesn't debase, demean or diminish humanity, nor does it demand humility or acceptance of inferiority. Rather, it encourages human greatness.


Asatru in common practice has far less to do with one's relationship to the divine and far more to do with one's relationship to the land, the family and the community. It is based on a strongly communitarian ideal of mutual reciprocity and responsibility. Certain expressions of it, such as Theodism, have an authority structure.

Asatru in practice is pretty much the opposite of Randian Objectivism.

StudiodeKadent

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Re: Non-Pagan Interested In Discussion
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2012, 06:44:36 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;59645
Quite.  In my experience Atheism equates antitheism which is a whole 'nuther ball o'yarn.  Not exactly what you're presenting I think.


I am an anti-theist with respect to Christianity especially (I know more about various Christian theologies than other religions), and I guess against Yahweh/Jehovah generally. That said, there are some variants of Christianity I have little quarrel with.

Remember that most anti-theists implicitly understand "god" in a Christian-esque way, i.e. Omniscient/Omnipotent/etc. etc. Creator Ex Nihilo We All Know Where This Goes.

I think that the vast majority of anti-theists would be much less harsh towards religions with non-grovel views of the relationship between humanity and the divine than they are towards Christianity etcetera.

Quote
Ooooo... now this is interestig.  Why not?


I'm an Open-System Objectivist (i.e. non-cultish Ayn Randian). Our morality's three cardinal values are Reason, Purpose and Self-Esteem. Their corresponding virtues are Rationality, Productiveness and Pride.

As for WHY Pride is a good thing (according to my perspective), basically it is because pride (which Objectivism understands in terms of trusting the competence of one's judgment and realizing one is worthy of happiness and fulfillment) is considered necessary to live a properly human life and flourishing.

There's also a critique of humility; generally I'd argue that humility is used as a social control mechanism. Make someone doubt their competence and worthiness and they'll flee into the arms of authority to be relieved of the duty to think independently, etc.

This is only a brief statement though, the full explanations and theories are more detailed.

StudiodeKadent

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Re: Non-Pagan Interested In Discussion
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2012, 06:57:16 am »
Quote from: cigfran;59646
Asatru in common practice has far less to do with one's relationship to the divine and far more to do with one's relationship to the land, the family and the community. It is based on a strongly communitarian ideal of mutual reciprocity and responsibility. Certain expressions of it, such as Theodism, have an authority structure.

Asatru in practice is pretty much the opposite of Randian Objectivism.

I never said I agree with everything in Asatru. I said I like its vision of the relationship between man and the divine. That's scarcely the same as a blanket endorsement of the whole religion, and yes, I do have my disagreements with it.

Mutual reciprocity and responsibility (or community or family) are scarcely anti-Objectivist. You seem to implicitly believe that individualism is about being solitary and having no relationships. This is untrue. Indeed, Objectivist philosopher Dr. David Kelley has argued that social benevolence is a primary virtue in Objectivism (see his book Unrugged Individualism for more). The argument Kelley makes is that relationships with others are a value, and so it is in one's rational interests to nourish these relationships.

Objectivism is opposed to Comtean Altruism. Mutual reciprocity and responsibility aren't Comtean Altruism. Indeed, Objectivism supports the ethic of reciprocity (we call it "the Trader Principle"), which is by definition mutual.

Valuing the community, or relationships, or family, isn't necessarily anti-individualist at all.

I agree re. Theodism, by the way. Authority structures are not compatible with Objectivist ideas, in spite of the personality cult of the original NBI days (an unfortunate phenomenon to say the least).  

Still, "pretty much the opposite of Randian Objectivism" is a very, very strong claim. I'd disagree. There's significant common ground in ethics, not merely on the issue of human dignity but also on specific virtues (Integrity, Honesty, keeping one's contracts, Justice, etc.).
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 06:58:11 am by StudiodeKadent »

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Re: Non-Pagan Interested In Discussion
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2012, 07:11:06 am »
Quote from: StudiodeKadent;59607
...Compared to the self-debasing "grovel-spirituality" we get out of the Abrahamic Monotheisms...

 
I wanted to add a few quick words to say that, in your POV, my practice would most likely involve a whole lot of groveling. Between the daily offerings and prayers, small moments of quiet worship and a general submission to the will of the Gods, I'm quiet sure my practice rivals or even tops that of many practitioners of the Abrahamic faiths ;) So while a multitude of religions and systems within (Neo-)Paganism are 'grovel-free', a lot are not. And that is exactly how their practitioners like it.
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StudiodeKadent

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Re: Non-Pagan Interested In Discussion
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2012, 07:13:57 am »
Quote from: Elani Temperance;59651
I wanted to add a few quick words to say that, in your POV, my practice would most likely involve a whole lot of groveling. Between the daily offerings and prayers, small moments of quiet worship and a general submission to the will of the Gods, I'm quiet sure my practice rivals or even tops that of many practitioners of the Abrahamic faiths ;) So while a multitude of religions and systems within (Neo-)Paganism are 'grovel-free', a lot are not. And that is exactly how their practitioners like it.

 
I understand. I hope you haven't been offended, by the way.

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