The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

This may be a little complicated, so please bear with me.

I was having a 'discussion' on FB in response to one of my friend's posts.  Basically, he was musing on whether Wiccans worship the 'creator' or the 'creation'.  He declared that worshiping the 'creation' is a deviation from the 'true source' - the creator. He also talked a bit about being 'Pagan in practice' but 'Wiccan in faith', which (from what I understand) doesn't really make sense...because (again, from what I understand, please someone correct me if I am getting this wrong) Wicca is orthopraxic - it's something you do.  That's why people in a Wiccan coven can have different beliefs about the nature of the gods but still work in the same coven.  (The orthopraxy vs orthodoxy is more a minor questions. I've read pretty much everywhere that most Paganisms are about practice, not belief.)

My question is: do we see this idea - that the 'creator' is the 'true source' and is what should be worshiped - in ancient Paganisms?  Do we see it it modern day Paganisms?  I've never read anything remotely close to that viewpoint except from Christian writers, so I'm interested if we see that approach in ancient or modern Paganism?  (I guess you could say we do since this friend identifies as Pagan...)

My question is: do we see this idea - that the 'creator' is the 'true source' and is what should be worshiped - in ancient Paganisms?  Do we see it it modern day Paganisms?  I've never read anything remotely close to that viewpoint except from Christian writers, so I'm interested if we see that approach in ancient or modern Paganism?  (I guess you could say we do since this friend identifies as Pagan...)

I think what you're groping for os the deference between an immanent and transcendent deity. In the former, there's no separation between creator and created while in the latter the creator is separate from and usually above that which should schklee creates.

In most hard polytheisms, at least in my experience, you find a separation. The Olympian lived "up there" on Mount Olympus and we're separated from the world. But, you could argue that they didn't create the world even though hey are revered as Gods.

For pantheists and panentheists, you find a more immanent diety, surrounding and existing within all creation simultaneously. I know a lotboc Pagans who think this way, but they tend to be more modern, eclectic practitioners rather than members of recon trade, speaking generally of the course.

Wicc-ish folk can view both the Moon and the Earth as symbols of the Goddess, and the Sun a symbol of the God.  On a Full Moon night we're not really worshipping the Moon, except as sort of a proxy, I guess.  The trick, I think, is not to mistake the symbol for the thing symbolised.
On the other hand... if you believe the Earth to be a living Divinity, then you have both Creator and Creation existing in the same space; immanence and transcendence together.  
Also, I'd suggest that Wicca shares both elements of orthopraxy and orthodoxy (at least, its ritualism)   While the core of it, imho, is the belief and ethics, it is also a highly ritualistic practice.

So could a person be 'Wiccan in faith'? I'm wondering what that would look like...

So could a person be 'Wiccan in faith'? I'm wondering what that would look like...

Probably like a person who goes through life believing in Wiccan tenets (but not tenants, even if they pay the rent) while never marking a holy day on the Wheel or observing a sabbat.

If you mean whether a person can be Wiccan (or anything for that matter) by faith alone, absent of 'works' or deeds, I'm not sure if that is desirable or even possible.  One's ethics should naturally inform one's actions.  Using Christianity as a comparison, much is made of being saved by grace or by faith alone, but Jesus himself had some strong words against 'faith without works,' going so far as to say something like: You show me faith without works, and I'll show you faith through works.

... tenets (but not tenants, even if they pay the rent)....

 
Someone record this for posterity:  Mad Zealot and I agree on something.  Agree strongly, even!

Sunflower

"Pagan in practice, Wiccan in faith" sounds to me like someone who knows enough about Trad Wicca to know one has to be an initiate to practice it, but doesn't know enough about it to know it's orthopraxic and that there is no "faith" component.  Many Trad Wiccans will tell you that, if one just wants the religion part, and doesn't want to join the priestly order (i.e., Wicca), the word for that is Pagan - I find this to be not-very-useful, and rather offensive, most of the time, because there are so many pagan religions that have no relationship at all to Wicca that are erased or subsumed by it, but it seems relevant here.

AFAIK, the whole "worship the creator, not the creation" thing has nothing to do with Trad Wicca; that sounds like he has baggage in which Christian structures are a default template for How To Do Religion.

So what it looks like from here, at second-hand, is a soft furry li'l rabbit.

Sunflower

I have tried really hard not to use the term fluffy bunny, but (the Gods are testing me) I've thought that about him and the people 'defending' him. And I agree with the point I bolded.  I use trad Wicca and neoWicca to differentiate between them.

And I would think it was his being respectful and knowledgeable about trad Wiccans...except when I pointed out that (some) people might not even consider him Wiccan because he was never initiated, his response was, 'Initiation is just a way of keeping people from speaking to God and controlling them.'

My response was just: you do not understand. At all.  

It's good to see other people agreeing that the 'true source' seems Christian. I was worried it was just me jumping to conclusions or being a bit too critical.

My question is: do we see this idea - that the 'creator' is the 'true source' and is what should be worshiped - in ancient Paganisms?  Do we see it it modern day Paganisms?  I've never read anything remotely close to that viewpoint except from Christian writers, so I'm interested if we see that approach in ancient or modern Paganism?  (I guess you could say we do since this friend identifies as Pagan...)

 
In my creation story, Creators and Creation are one. So I can't worship one without worshipping the other.

In my creation story, Creators and Creation are one. So I can't worship one without worshipping the other.

 
Mine too.  The question just doesn't make sense in a pantheistic worldview.