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Author Topic: Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?  (Read 5330 times)

Morphidae

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Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?
« on: May 08, 2012, 08:49:07 am »
I've been reading the Bible over the last year. It's something I wanted to accomplish at least once in my life. I'm near finished with it. I'll be done June 3rd. I've not been doing it in depth but rather a surface reading.

During my "light" perusal of the Bible and some accompanying reading (Bible for Dummies and The Complete Bible Handbook), I became curious why Jews don't believe that Jesus Christ was their Messiah. It seems like an obvious progression from the Old to New Testament. I'm clearly missing something. What is it?

ETA: I believe that whatever the reasons, they are perfectly valid. I'm just curious what those reasons are.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 08:53:28 am by Morphidae »

Holdasown

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Re: Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2012, 08:52:52 am »
Quote from: Morphidae;53492
I've been reading the Bible over the last year. It's something I wanted to accomplish at least once in my life. I'm near finished with it. I'll be done June 3rd. I've not been doing it in depth but rather a surface reading.

During my "light" perusal of the Bible and some accompanying reading (Bible for Dummies and The Complete Bible Handbook), I became curious why Jews don't believe that Jesus Christ was their Messiah. It seems like an obvious progression from the Old to New Testament. I'm clearly missing something. What is it?


I can't speak for the whole Jewish people but my impression has been they believe the Messiah would be for them, not everyone.

Marilyn/Absentminded

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Re: Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2012, 09:44:00 am »
Quote from: Ula;53493
I can't speak for the whole Jewish people but my impression has been they believe the Messiah would be for them, not everyone.

 
I know very little about Judaism, but on purely logical grounds I don't think that could be the reason.  In the early years of the Christian faith only Jews could become Christian.  It wasn't until later that a decision was made to allow gentiles to convert too.  That would indicate that originally he was only for them, not everyone.

I think it had more to do with the politics of the time, and the fact that Jesus was not the only one who 'fit the profile', and that he did  things, or things were done in his name, to make him fit it.  Politics, not religion.

However, there are people on this board who are far more knowledgeable than I, and hopefully they will come in on this.  

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Nachtigall

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Re: Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2012, 09:55:27 am »
Quote from: Morphidae;53492
I've been reading the Bible over the last year. It's something I wanted to accomplish at least once in my life. I'm near finished with it. I'll be done June 3rd. I've not been doing it in depth but rather a surface reading.

During my "light" perusal of the Bible and some accompanying reading (Bible for Dummies and The Complete Bible Handbook), I became curious why Jews don't believe that Jesus Christ was their Messiah. It seems like an obvious progression from the Old to New Testament. I'm clearly missing something. What is it?

ETA: I believe that whatever the reasons, they are perfectly valid. I'm just curious what those reasons are.

 
1) Jesus wasn't David's descendant (Joseph was, but he is not recognised as his father).
2) Jesus didn't rebuild the Jerusalem temple, as the Messiah should have done.

And, of course, there's the issue of Christians persecuting the Jews, which is the reason that some Jews even say, that Jesus was their enemy on the level of Hitler.

Darkhawk

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Re: Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2012, 10:10:44 am »
Quote from: Morphidae;53492
I became curious why Jews don't believe that Jesus Christ was their Messiah. It seems like an obvious progression from the Old to New Testament. I'm clearly missing something. What is it?

 
The bit about not fulfilling the expected prophecies would likely do.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Tana

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Re: Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2012, 10:38:29 am »
Quote from: Nachtigall;53500
1) Jesus wasn't David's descendant (Joseph was, but he is not recognised as his father).
2) Jesus didn't rebuild the Jerusalem temple, as the Messiah should have done.


Plus Messiahs were a dozen a dime in those times.
Every other week a new one came out of the dessert.
\'You had to repay, good or bad. There was more than one type of obligation.
That’s what people never really understood.….Things had to balance.
You couldn’t set out to be a good witch or a bad witch. It never worked out for long.
All you could try to be was a witch, as hard as you could.\'
Terry Pratchett \'Lords and Ladies\'

Confuzzled and proud. :p

Morphidae

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Re: Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2012, 10:42:14 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;53503
The bit about not fulfilling the expected prophecies would likely do.

Could you tell me what some of those were? Any others such as not being David's descendant and not rebuilding the temple?

I originally was under the impression he had fulfilled the prophecies. Were there any that he did fulfill? Or was it all the early Christians trying to stick a round peg into a square hole?

Quote from: Tana;53507
Plus Messiahs were a dozen a dime in those times.
Every other week a new one came out of the dessert.

Any particular reason Jesus Christ got picked out as "special"?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 10:45:26 am by Morphidae »

Tana

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Re: Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2012, 10:50:59 am »
Quote from: Morphidae;53508

Any particular reason Jesus Christ got picked out as "special"?


Difficult question, because the recordings started decades after his presumed lifetime.
So there is centuries of writing, re-writing, and finally deciding who and how this messiah should be.

I am no expert on this, just knowing about stuff I've heard and read.
Guess you have to find some serious bible research stuff, the non-religious type, that can answer questions about the situation in the different times and the reasons behind it.
\'You had to repay, good or bad. There was more than one type of obligation.
That’s what people never really understood.….Things had to balance.
You couldn’t set out to be a good witch or a bad witch. It never worked out for long.
All you could try to be was a witch, as hard as you could.\'
Terry Pratchett \'Lords and Ladies\'

Confuzzled and proud. :p

Selendrile

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Re: Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2012, 11:24:26 am »
Quote from: Morphidae;53492
I've been reading the Bible over the last year. It's something I wanted to accomplish at least once in my life. I'm near finished with it. I'll be done June 3rd. I've not been doing it in depth but rather a surface reading.

During my "light" perusal of the Bible and some accompanying reading (Bible for Dummies and The Complete Bible Handbook), I became curious why Jews don't believe that Jesus Christ was their Messiah. It seems like an obvious progression from the Old to New Testament. I'm clearly missing something. What is it?

ETA: I believe that whatever the reasons, they are perfectly valid. I'm just curious what those reasons are.

 
What I've been told is that the Jews believed the Messiah would be a king on earth that would save them in the physical world from their repression. Jesus was more about the next world. His followers would not be given freedom in this world, but in the next. That is not what the Jews were expecting. On top of that, Jesus never came straight out and said that he was anyone's savior. He hinted around it and came really close a few times, but mostly he let his followers make up their own minds and spread the word. Anytime he was asked directly if he was the savior, he asked what the person believed. Anyway, it's just a matter of how one reads and understands the old testament and the prophesy's about the messiah. I guess it's the same reason that their are so many types of christian denominations and followers. Everyone is different and processes things differently.

Morphidae

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Re: Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2012, 11:34:20 am »
Quote from: Morphidae;53492
why Jews don't believe that Jesus Christ was their Messiah

 
I really appreciate everyone's replies so far. I was a little nervous about asking it on a Pagan message board but I've found that Pagans, in general, tend to be pretty religiously literate.

Darkhawk

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Re: Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2012, 11:41:29 am »
Quote from: Morphidae;53508
Could you tell me what some of those were? Any others such as not being David's descendant and not rebuilding the temple?


I have very little knowledge of the messianic threads of Judaism, so no.  I simply know that he did not qualify.

Quote
I originally was under the impression he had fulfilled the prophecies. Were there any that he did fulfill? Or was it all the early Christians trying to stick a round peg into a square hole?


IIRC the Gospel of Matthew in particular was an attempt to spin-doctor the events of Jesus's life in order to suggest that the events had been foretold, up to and including cherry-picking lines out of context and suggesting that they were foreshadowing (as opposed to, as was generally understood at the time, commentary on the present of when the texts were written).

Quote
Any particular reason Jesus Christ got picked out as "special"?

 
Dedicated, noisy followers who several centuries down the line wound up with the backing of an empire.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Darkhawk

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Re: Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2012, 11:44:59 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;53515
cherry-picking lines out of context and suggesting that they were foreshadowing (as opposed to, as was generally understood at the time, commentary on the present of when the texts were written).


Addendum: and in fact those lines are generally understood by scholars (Jewish and otherwise) to be commentaries about the time of the texts' writings, not fortellings of future events.

Quote
Dedicated, noisy followers who several centuries down the line wound up with the backing of an empire.

 
Also, someone took the notion of converting goyim.  There are a lot more potential gentile converts than people interested in minor Jewish splinter sects following yet another failed messiah.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Holdasown

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Re: Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2012, 12:40:46 pm »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;53499
I know very little about Judaism, but on purely logical grounds I don't think that could be the reason.  In the early years of the Christian faith only Jews could become Christian.  It wasn't until later that a decision was made to allow gentiles to convert too.  That would indicate that originally he was only for them, not everyone.

I think it had more to do with the politics of the time, and the fact that Jesus was not the only one who 'fit the profile', and that he did  things, or things were done in his name, to make him fit it.  Politics, not religion.

However, there are people on this board who are far more knowledgeable than I, and hopefully they will come in on this.  

Absent

 
That's not true. Paul went to Greece and Christ tried to convert a Sumerian.

Jabberwocky

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Re: Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2012, 12:55:05 pm »
Quote from: Morphidae;53508
Could you tell me what some of those were? Any others such as not being David's descendant and not rebuilding the temple?

Not gathering all Jews back into the land of Israel.  Not ushering in an era of world peace and uniting humanity as one.  (Note that there is no concept of the 'Second Coming' in Jewish theology, so the Messiah is expected to fulfil this prophecy at the time of their arrival).  Not leading the Jews to full Torah observance, instead breaking Torah commandments several times.  Jewish theology reads Deuteronomy 13:1-4 as specifically saying that any messianic claimant who encourages Jews to move away from Torah observance is a false prophet.

Quote
I originally was under the impression he had fulfilled the prophecies. Were there any that he did fulfill? Or was it all the early Christians trying to stick a round peg into a square hole?


He fulfilled some of them but, in my view, they're the more general ones that could apply to lots of people. He was well-versed in Jewish law, a charismatic figure and a judge who made righteous decisions. The more specific ones are the ones where the claim falls down.

And the time of his rise did come after a period of war and suffering, which is also fitting with prophecy.

Quote
Any particular reason Jesus Christ got picked out as "special"?

The obvious answer is that he had a critical mass of worshippers that outlived his life.

Why that might be, compared to other messianic claimants, is more complex.  I think a significant factor is the fact that his teachings were very much spiritual as opposed to worldly.  Because the focus of his teaching was very much on the world to come, as opposed to the world that he was in, it meant that he couldn't be proved or disproved; it's a matter of faith.

That's what differentiated him from most other Messianic claimants.  It's worth comparing him to Bar Kokhba.  Bar Kokhba was actually a more credible claimant, in terms of attempting to fulfil the prophecies.  (He's probably the most credible claimant there's ever been).

However, he led a revolt against Roman rule. It succeeded at first but was eventually crushed.  At which point, it was self-evident the claim to Messiah status had failed.  So that's a real difference; when someone is attempting to fulfil the parts of the prophecy that are about being a successful military commander it logically progresses to having actually success/failure conditions.  That wasn't the case with Jesus.

That's why, while Bar Kohba is still cited as an inspirational figure by some of the radicals round the Jewdas/Heeb axis of Judaism, you no longer find anybody who believes he was the Messiah.  Indeed, that was pretty much the case as soon as his revolt was crushed.
Your heart is a muscle as big as your fist.

Morphidae

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Re: Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2012, 01:16:32 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;53528

The obvious answer is that he had a critical mass of worshippers that outlived his life.


That makes sense. I like to learn about the history behind the Bible. I thought I would get it from the two supplementary books I was reading, but one is too simple (Bible for Dummies) and one is too dry and "one true way"-ish (The Complete Bible Handbook.)

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