collapse

* Recent Posts

Re: "Christ Is King" by Altair
[Today at 10:58:24 am]


Re: "Christ Is King" by SirPalomides
[Today at 08:57:21 am]


Re: "Christ Is King" by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 11:06:51 pm]


Re: "Christ Is King" by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 10:30:17 pm]


Re: "Christ Is King" by Darkhawk
[Yesterday at 08:31:19 pm]

Author Topic: White Nationalists and Heathenry  (Read 45955 times)

Septima

  • Apprentice
  • ***
  • Join Date: Sep 2011
  • Posts: 37
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
White Nationalists and Heathenry
« on: April 11, 2012, 08:23:37 am »
There seems to be a real interest in Heathenry and the Norse gods among White Nationalists and Pro-White individuals. I should mention that I am not taking about your typical trailer trash Skinhead Nazitru people either, rather your clean cut, respectable person who has White Nationalist views but is not a Nazi.

What attracts these people to Heathenry and what are your opinions on them in general?

I find it kind of strange how in Kemetic Reconstructionism, Black Afrocentric racists are often tolerated or even embraced by members of their community.

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10311
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 296
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: White Nationalists and Heathenry
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 08:42:06 am »
Quote from: Septima;49691
I find it kind of strange how in Kemetic Reconstructionism, Black Afrocentric racists are often tolerated or even embraced by members of their community.

Unfortunately, a certain number of people in any religion are going to be racists or tolerate racism. While this is annoying, IMHO, it only becomes a real issue when religious organizations welcome racists as members (instead of banning or at least marginalizing them) and/or do not clearly speak out (both in speech, writing, and policy) against racism -- including preventing its more racist members from being able to appear to represent the views of the religion or organization as a whole to the public without strong challenge.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free

Hyacinth Belle

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • *
  • Posts: 435
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: White Nationalists and Heathenry
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2012, 12:00:57 pm »
Quote from: Septima;49691
There seems to be a real interest in Heathenry and the Norse gods among White Nationalists and Pro-White individuals. I should mention that I am not taking about your typical trailer trash Skinhead Nazitru people either, rather your clean cut, respectable person who has White Nationalist views but is not a Nazi.

What attracts these people to Heathenry and what are your opinions on them in general?

I find it kind of strange how in Kemetic Reconstructionism, Black Afrocentric racists are often tolerated or even embraced by members of their community.

I think any religion with and ethnic / tribal disposition is, unfortunately, bound to attract certain people with nationalistic or racist views. Racism isn't tolerated in the general Asatru population.

I know very little about African-centered religions such as Kemetic recon or Rastafari, but perhaps such views are more tolerated there because the history of African peoples includes institutionalized slavery. Just my idea.
"Silent and thoughtful a prince\'s son should be / and bold in fighting; / cheerful and merry every man should be / until he waits for death." ~ Havamal, stanza 15

Jabberwocky

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 452
  • Total likes: 25
    • View Profile
Re: White Nationalists and Heathenry
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2012, 10:05:41 pm »
Quote from: Septima;49691
There seems to be a real interest in Heathenry and the Norse gods among White Nationalists and Pro-White individuals.


For the sake of balance, while that's true, I'll also say that some of the best antifascists I've known have been Asatru.  If you're interested in this subject, I highly recommend this article for a good overview of this subject.  A sample:

Quote
It is an important tenet of our religioun, of our philosophy towards life as Asatruar, that a person is responsible for his or her actions. Well, inaction is an action too. Allowing racist beliefs to be spoken next to the beliefs of our cultural ancestors without comment gives the distinct impression to everyone that these are acceptable interpretations of the lore (and think how that affects those new to our path, as well as outsiders looking at us). It lends validity to the idea that our gods really think and feel as they do. My brothers and sisters, every time you let such opinions go unchallenged, every time you shut down a conversation with the words "let's not open up that can of worms again," or "well, they're just expressing their honest opinions," or "we've already had this conversation and it got nowhere,", every time you do these things THE RESULT OF YOUR ACTIVITIES IS THAT THE RACIST AGENDA IS ALLOWED TO FLOURISH. IT IS PROMOTED. IT IS ALLOWED TO DOMINATE MORE AND MORE OF WHO WE ARE AS ASATRUAR.


Quote
I should mention that I am not taking about your typical trailer trash Skinhead Nazitru people either, rather your clean cut, respectable person who has White Nationalist views but is not a Nazi.


That's part of a wider ideological trend in the far right, certainly in Europe (and the US seem to be catching up).  Essentially, Nazism really isn't a dominant influence any more.  There are obvious exceptions, but they're entirely irrelevant now and not where the threat from neofascism lies.  The figure important in understanding the modern far right isn't Hitler, it's Le Pen and his "euronationalist" strategy.

Obviously this is a simplification.  It's not the only ideological trend that comes into play, it's often combined with others- third positionism, Evolanism etc.  But it's certainly played a big factor, especially strategically, when talking about any of the relatively successful organisation.

Quote
What attracts these people to Heathenry


  • They see it as an "indigenous white" religion.
  • A misreading of the practise of venerating ancestors combined with a deliberately narrow reading of the term "kith and kin" allows them to claim that it's a "whites only" religion.  Although not in a consistent way; they'll claim that fellow fascists of entirely different countries are close enough to qualify.
  • The Viking culture (or more specifically a highly skewed retelling of it) has traditionally appealed to the far right.
  • It's seen as a return to a religion free of Christian influences.  Which, considering the prevalence of antisemitism within the far right, is obviously in part to do with them seeing it as a way of not being 'tainted' by a religion of Jewish origin.
  • Because there is already a minority far right presence, it makes it easier for them to get a foothold without challenge.
  • Similarly, the existence of 'moderate' folkish types gives them useful cover.


I'm sure there's other reasons, but those are the main ones I can think of.

Quote
and what are your opinions on them in general?


Ideological and physical confrontation.

Quote
I find it kind of strange how in Kemetic Reconstructionism, Black Afrocentric racists are often tolerated or even embraced by members of their community.

 
That's because they're a) tiny and basically irrelevant, b) because they don't really have much contact with Paganism and/or Heathenry as a whole and c) generally more in the 'conspiracy theory' wing of things.  Very few people bother with 9/11 troofers either.
Your heart is a muscle as big as your fist.

Lokabrenna

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 829
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: White Nationalists and Heathenry
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2012, 10:38:37 pm »
Quote from: Septima;49691

What attracts these people to Heathenry....


I think Jabberwocky's post sums it up the best.

Quote
.....and what are your opinions on them in general?


Well, it's a small thing, but I make it clear that racists aren't welcome on any of the Facebook groups I own, and I have strong language for racist asshats who hide behind Heathenry--like this one guy, recently, who was grumbling about how black men shouldn't be fucking "our women" (note: women are not property). It just....disgusts me on so many levels. I absolutely refuse to stay silent on the matter, even if I only have control over the spaces I moderate online.

Nature

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Mar 2012
  • Posts: 12
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: White Nationalists and Heathenry
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2012, 02:54:33 am »
Quote from: Septima;49691
There seems to be a real interest in Heathenry and the Norse gods among White Nationalists and Pro-White individuals. your clean cut, respectable person who has White Nationalist views but is not a Nazi.

What attracts these people to Heathenry and what are your opinions on them in general?

I find it kind of strange how in Kemetic Reconstructionism, Black Afrocentric racists are often tolerated or even embraced by members of their community.

 
I don't mind if someone is proud that he is a pure blooded White man.  Or if he's proud he's a Mexican.  We all have something to be proud of in our ancestors.

I respect someone more who is proud of ancestry and heritage than someone who is not.

So yeah, I have nothing against proud White people.

rocquelaire

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 691
  • Country: scotland
  • Total likes: 7
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Gaelic Polytheist
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/her
White Nationalists and Heathenry
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2012, 04:08:24 am »
Quote from: Nature;50123
I don't mind if someone is proud that he is a pure blooded White man.  Or if he's proud he's a Mexican.  We all have something to be proud of in our ancestors.

I respect someone more who is proud of ancestry and heritage than someone who is not.

So yeah, I have nothing against proud White people.

I don't really understand this concept, could you explain it a bit more?
 
For me pride is something to be felt about actions. I'm proud of my achievements. Of difficult choices I've made. Of conducting myself well when it was difficult. I'm proud of my ancestors for the same reasons. The colour of my skin is entirely irrelevant to that. It is something which is out of my control and therefore not something to be proud of.

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10311
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 296
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: White Nationalists and Heathenry
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2012, 08:16:24 am »
Quote from: rocquelaire;50125
I'm proud of my ancestors for the same reasons. The colour of my skin is entirely irrelevant to that. It is something which is out of my control and therefore not something to be proud of.

I can see being "proud to be " in cases where skin color is the major common element in some important shared history, for example and can see American (and Brazilian, etc) blacks being "proud to be black" because of their shared history of slavery -- that is sometime that was a major thing and was directly related to skin color. Otherwise it makes as little sense to me as someone claiming pride in their green eyes or naturally curly hair. Talking about your "White Pride" seems as silly to me as talking about your "Red Hair Pride" -- sure both white skin and red hair are genetic/ancestry things, but there is really no shared important "white experience" or "red hair experience" to have pride in.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free

cigfran

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 421
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
    • http://cigfran.net
Re: White Nationalists and Heathenry
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2012, 09:01:19 am »
Quote from: Nature;50123
...pure blooded White man.

 
What does this even mean?

Jabberwocky

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 452
  • Total likes: 25
    • View Profile
Re: White Nationalists and Heathenry
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2012, 12:55:49 pm »
Quote from: Nature;50123
I don't mind if someone is proud that he is a pure blooded White man.  Or if he's proud he's a Mexican.  We all have something to be proud of in our ancestors.

I respect someone more who is proud of ancestry and heritage than someone who is not.

So yeah, I have nothing against proud White people.


Well, I don't think anybody has a problem with things like Saint Patrick's Day parades or the Polish Cultural and Social Association.  Which would seem to cover people being proud of their ancestry and heritage.

The issue is specifically that people that identify as "pro White" are invariably, at best, racial segregationists.  And that their supposed "pride" expresses itself through the spiritual equivalent of sticking up "No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish" signs.

For them, I have about as much respect as I would have for someone who was proud of the fact they were a paedophile.
Your heart is a muscle as big as your fist.

cigfran

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 421
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
    • http://cigfran.net
Re: White Nationalists and Heathenry
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2012, 04:03:29 pm »
Quote from: Jabberwocky;50152
The issue is specifically that people that identify as "pro White" are invariably, at best, racial segregationists.


They are also invariably, at best, total losers. Any time I see anyone yapping about "white pride" I'm struck by what miserable specimens of "the white race" they really are, and am convinced that their alleged pride is a pitiable substitute for the merit and self-respect they so completely lack.

Maps

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Posts: 703
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: White Nationalists and Heathenry
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2012, 08:07:38 pm »
Quote from: Septima;49691
I find it kind of strange how in Kemetic Reconstructionism, Black Afrocentric racists are often tolerated or even embraced by members of their community.
Careful with that: many POC disagree with the dictionary definition of racism.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 08:08:09 pm by Maps »

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
Re: White Nationalists and Heathenry
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2012, 08:08:26 pm »
Quote from: cigfran;50165
They are also invariably, at best, total losers. Any time I see anyone yapping about "white pride" I'm struck by what miserable specimens of "the white race" they really are, and am convinced that their alleged pride is a pitiable substitute for the merit and self-respect they so completely lack.



I'm having this same tired argument with a blogger that seems otherwise intelligent.  The color of your skin is NOT an accomplishment, what's there to be proud of??? Be proud of your ancestral history and their cultural achievements,  but don't act like skin had anything to do with that. Celebrate the story of people, and how someone in your family helped add some good to it, but don't act like being white is the neat trick and good deed. Gah. *rolls eyes*
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Maps

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2011
  • Posts: 703
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: White Nationalists and Heathenry
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2012, 08:09:49 pm »
Quote from: cigfran;50165
They are also invariably, at best, total losers. Any time I see anyone yapping about "white pride" I'm struck by what miserable specimens of "the white race" they really are, and am convinced that their alleged pride is a pitiable substitute for the merit and self-respect they so completely lack.

 
Yeah, there really is no pride to be had in the color of your skin. Pride for the accomplishments of your ancestors, your family, your traditions, and your culture, but not your skin color.

HeartShadow

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2195
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
    • http://www.flamekeeping.org
Re: White Nationalists and Heathenry
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2012, 06:36:42 am »
Quote from: Maps;50187
Yeah, there really is no pride to be had in the color of your skin. Pride for the accomplishments of your ancestors, your family, your traditions, and your culture, but not your skin color.

 
yeah.  "hooray, I burn if I walk too slowly past an open window and my ancestors managed to completely avoid melanin!  OooOOoooOOO"

..... yeah.  honestly, I'd've preferred a little more melanin and a bit more height, instead of coming from the tribe of the pale-face hobbits.  But y'know, gotta celebrate that sunburn-ability!  *snorts*

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
12 Replies
3154 Views
Last post July 23, 2011, 11:21:44 am
by DragonDaughter
8 Replies
4149 Views
Last post August 15, 2011, 01:21:29 pm
by Juniperberry
4 Replies
11356 Views
Last post May 27, 2017, 10:22:11 pm
by SunflowerP
9 Replies
2120 Views
Last post August 26, 2012, 08:13:45 am
by RandallS
1 Replies
1219 Views
Last post February 10, 2014, 11:07:16 am
by Faemon

Special Interest Group

Warning: You are currently in a Special Interest Group on the message board with special rules and focused discussions.

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 216
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal