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Author Topic: 'How to be a fan of problematic things'  (Read 5740 times)

Lokabrenna

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'How to be a fan of problematic things'
« on: April 04, 2012, 05:21:18 pm »
I found an interesting blog post today. In essence, it's about how to like works that have problematic elements (whether they're racist, sexist, heterosexist etc). Here's a link to it:

http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/how-to-be-a-fan-of-problematic-things/

I think it's hard to find any form of media that someone won't find problematic, but speaking for myself, I can recognize that H.P. Lovecraft's work changed the horror genre while recognizing that he was a racist, sexist, anti-Semite, but I think there's a degree to which I can tolerate something that's problematic before I give up and stop reading (or watching, as the case may be). I absolutely refuse to consume anything that Orson Scott Card has created, for example, because he has a reputation for being, well, a homophobe (although that might be more because of the character of the author than the degree to which it shows up in his works, I haven't read them, obviously).

What are your "problematic things"?

LiminalAuggie

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Re: 'How to be a fan of problematic things'
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2012, 05:47:27 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;48849
I found an interesting blog post today. In essence, it's about how to like works that have problematic elements (whether they're racist, sexist, heterosexist etc). Here's a link to it:

http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/how-to-be-a-fan-of-problematic-things/

I think it's hard to find any form of media that someone won't find problematic, but speaking for myself, I can recognize that H.P. Lovecraft's work changed the horror genre while recognizing that he was a racist, sexist, anti-Semite, but I think there's a degree to which I can tolerate something that's problematic before I give up and stop reading (or watching, as the case may be). I absolutely refuse to consume anything that Orson Scott Card has created, for example, because he has a reputation for being, well, a homophobe (although that might be more because of the character of the author than the degree to which it shows up in his works, I haven't read them, obviously).

What are your "problematic things"?


Oh wow, thanks so much for that link! I've been having a hard time lately thinking about all the media that I like and how a lot of it is so problematic, and having that "but does that make me a bad person?" argument with myself. Sigh. Sometimes I just like to watch Supernatural, you know?

I've had a few friends lately trying to pester me into reading Ender's Game and I don't know that much at all about Orson Scott Card but I'm...really leery. I have a bad feeling about this.

Oh wait I just checked him out on Wikipedia. Okay. This is. I really do not like him. I don't care if he's written one of the greatest science fiction novels of all time, etc.,  I don't think I can support an author who believes that I do not deserve the same civil rights as "normal" people.
Now, I hope that when I tell my friends I'll be avoiding his work I hope the acknowledge it as problematic. Perhaps I should just send them that link. Because otherwise...I'll be in the market for new friends. Eesh.

catja6

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Re: 'How to be a fan of problematic things'
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2012, 06:04:22 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;48849


I think it's hard to find any form of media that someone won't find problematic, but speaking for myself, I can recognize that H.P. Lovecraft's work changed the horror genre while recognizing that he was a racist, sexist, anti-Semite, but I think there's a degree to which I can tolerate something that's problematic before I give up and stop reading (or watching, as the case may be). I absolutely refuse to consume anything that Orson Scott Card has created, for example, because he has a reputation for being, well, a homophobe (although that might be more because of the character of the author than the degree to which it shows up in his works, I haven't read them, obviously).

What are your "problematic things"?


That was a great blog post, and reflects the vast majority of the conversations that go on in the fannish spaces I frequent.  I've never held that "fandom" should only mean "uncritical adoration," because that's not my experience of fandom at all; like the writer says, you can love something problematic without it reflecting badly on you, because god knows there are distressingly few media texts that don't have something problematic about them (whether active prejudice/stereotyping or the more passive "everyone important JUST HAPPENS to be a straight white dude except for the token chick/black guy").

I love Glee, because it's shiny and fun and has dorky-hot people and is pretty much the only mainstream tv show that takes queer relationships as seriously as the straight relationships.  But oh my god, the big fat caveat is that your queerness is only treated seriously and sensitively IF you're a white guy; if you're a Latina girl, you're not the center of your own coming-out story -- it's all about the straight white asshole who outed you, and what a great guy HE is!  And lets not forget casual racist stereotyping and the constant pattern of "Nice Guy (TM) is persecuted by Crazy Woman," followed by "Crazy Woman is lectured/set right/~rescued by Nice Guy (TM)."  

The entire show is a hot damn mess, and there are things I love about that --  the dissonance between what we're told (Will:  Great Educator Who Inspires His Students!) and what we see (Will: Pervy Douche Who's THISCLOSE to Fondling Rachel!) often cracks me up.  But it's a hell of a lot uglier when it becomes "Everything the White Guys Do is Correct or Justifiable."  That crap hasn't overwhelmed my love for the show yet, but if it continues in this direction for much longer, it might.

What it comes down to, for me, is ~feelings.  If something is satisfying me on a gut level, I'll stick with it, warts and all, until I stop having feelings, or until my frustration with the warts undermines my happiness with the feelings.  But I won't turn my brain off, and I won't pretend my beloveds are flawless, because that's not how I roll.  And I am in no way obligated to put up with entertainment that makes me feel bad.  

It's an ongoing joke in fandom to define your fannishness in relationship terms.  Right now, Glee is my deeply screwed-up but still adorable boyfriend who keeps charming his way into my bed, even though I know it will end badly and I'm way too embarrassed to tell my friends that we're still hooking up.  (Supernatural is that crazy-hot ex that I always enjoy meeting for lunch and/or one-night stands, but if I spend too much time around him I remember what a misogynist asshole he is.)

yewberry

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Re: 'How to be a fan of problematic things'
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2012, 06:40:13 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;48849
What are your "problematic things"?


Philip Larkin is my favorite poet.  He was, by many accounts, a misogynist and at least quasi-racist.  He was also a man of his class, time, disposition, education, and locale.  

And it's not like he's Ayn Rand or anything.  ;)

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Re: 'How to be a fan of problematic things'
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2012, 09:40:22 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;48849
I found an interesting blog post today. In essence, it's about how to like works that have problematic elements (whether they're racist, sexist, heterosexist etc).

I've never had a problem with fiction with problematic elements, this is especially true if it is older material. For example, I'm a fan of pulp era fiction despite the fact that it is often racist and sexist, reflecting the society of the time when it was written. Reading it shows that our society actually has come a pretty good way (relative to where we were) toward a society where such behavior isn't acceptable.
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Annie Roonie

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Re: 'How to be a fan of problematic things'
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2012, 10:55:56 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;48849

What are your "problematic things"?

Hephaestus being considered unbeautiful became problematic for me when I was a kid first learning because I had come from a Catholic school where my favorite teacher was a nun who spent extra time with me telling me stories about underdogs, many of whom were physically imperfect. Then later when many children I taught had   other health impairments and we covered the basics of the Olympians, the implied standard of beauty kind of bugged me and I know it bugged a few sass masters on wheels too. Dangit. We should have started a smithy fan club.

Nathaniel Hawthorne has some very anti-semitic elements in some of his work. I think he even has named the devil a Jew in Ethan Brand if I'm remembering correctly.  It does not stop me from enjoying his work nor does the rather large skeleton in his family's closet.

It's difficult to think of a work I like that either isn't problematic in some way or whose author doesn't have a problematic issue, so the blog post is a nice acknowledgment of such things.

It reminds me of my favorite trait of epic heroes: human flaws. Gotta have 'em.

I do get kind of irked when something is so problematic that doesn't have to be and then is glossed over or expunged thereby limiting exposure and interest. For example, if an author was gay or a communist or didn't have dominant religious beliefs, the majority of material that used to be available for teaching didn't mention it in author biographies (much still doesn't). That kind of information could enhance someone's understanding and expand thoughts. At the same time, those same sanitized materials would go whole hog and spend pages covering writer's who had more than the average bats per belfry. Poe becomes so interesting that every kid fixates on him for a bit, but Thoreau not so much. I think the cheat notes to his works must be the best selling ever. The perceived problematic elements sometimes are the most interesting parts.

I never looked into Card's bio much as I listened to his books on audio and he read them with extensive commentary at the end. That was enough for me. It's kind of funny finding out about his bigotry now though because Ender reminded me so much of my gay best friend growing up that I only pictured the character as him. Still do.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 10:57:07 pm by Annie Roonie »

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Re: 'How to be a fan of problematic things'
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2012, 11:02:04 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;48849
I found an interesting blog post today. In essence, it's about how to like works that have problematic elements (whether they're racist, sexist, heterosexist etc). Here's a link to it:

http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/how-to-be-a-fan-of-problematic-things/


D'oh!  I knew about that article - I've had it bookmarked under "Anti-Kyriarchy 101" for months, fer pete squeaks - but it never occurred to me to post a link to it here on TC.  Doing so totally makes sense, though, so good on you for having the sense to do it!

Quote
What are your "problematic things"?

 
I could undoubtedly make a very long list if I took the time, since, as you say, few if any things are free of problematic stuff.  But right at the top of that list is Robert Heinlein - his stuff actually does quite a bit to challenge problematic assumptions (yes, often, "as they manifested at the time he wrote the work," rather than, "as they manifest now," but very often that's not as different as people like to think), but they're nevertheless brimful of other problematic assumptions that aren't being questioned and examined.

For me, the fact that he does habitually question and examine such things is an invitation to do so myself.  Not that I think any reader needs to wait for an invitation; IMO, that's as much a part of engaging with a work (as opposed to just being a passive consumer) as that pet exercise of SF fans, critiquing the worldbuilding - well, social structures are worldbuilding, every bit as much as technological advances (which is why I love Heinlein's stuff so much; he did treat both as part of worldbuilding).  And engaging with what they're reading is every reader's right - even if not, how do you stop someone doing so?  (Come to think, Heinlein had things to say about that, too.)

But that he himself places the examination of assumptions in the arena undercuts all the arguments by idolatrous fanboys (and occasionally fangirls, but the "Heinlein is above question!" crew is heavily dudely) that one shouldn't examine Heinlein's assumptions.  That adds an extra layer of legitimacy to an already-legitimate activity.

And, too, when a work or body of work already examines and challenges common/invisible prejudicial assumptions and social structures, it's a more effective springboard for continuing that examination at a deeper and more nuanced level, because much of the broad and obvious has already been addressed.

I don't examine the ways Heinlein is problematic because I dislike his works, or even in spite of loving them; I do it because I love them.  I love them enough that I like being that deeply engaged by them.  What the "don't say anything negative about the thing I love!" fans have for the objects of their fannish affections looks to me a whole lot more like infatuation - a crush on something idealized - than love.

I kind of think of the article Lokabrenna linked as a companion piece to And we shall call this "Moff's Law".

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Re: 'How to be a fan of problematic things'
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2012, 11:04:20 pm »
Quote from: Annie Roonie;48898
I never looked into Card's bio much as I listened to his books on audio and he read them with extensive commentary at the end. That was enough for me. It's kind of funny finding out about his bigotry now though because Ender reminded me so much of my gay best friend growing up that I only pictured the character as him. Still do.

 
Hah!  Now that's what I call poetic justice!

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Annie Roonie

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Re: 'How to be a fan of problematic things'
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2012, 11:26:05 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;48901
Hah!  Now that's what I call poetic justice!

Sunflower


I'm still kind of chuckling about it. Those Wiggins stories are almost completely populated by males in huge sections and some of them seemed deeply in love with one another. I remember them as romantic in parts. Go figure.

Lokabrenna

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Re: 'How to be a fan of problematic things'
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2012, 11:28:59 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;48899

I kind of think of the article Lokabrenna linked as a companion piece to And we shall call this "Moff's Law".


For the gamers out there, there's a series known as "Extra Credits" which is basically Moff's Law as applied to video games, particularly this episode "Art is Not the Opposite of Fun": http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/art-is-not-the-opposite-of-fun

One thing that is noted throughout the series is that games aren't really given the same consideration as books or film (after all, it's "just a game").

Speaking of Avatar, I'll confess I liked the movie because I thought the banshee were cool and the Na'vi are, well, blue-skinned smurfy cat space Pagans (or Native Americans, I suppose would be more accurate) but there are lots of people who (rightly) call it out for being "Mighty Whitey" and ableist (although, as a disabled person myself, I would trade my legs for Na'vi legs, not being able to walk very far, stand for more than fifteen minutes, and having crappy balance SUCKS) but I'll still go see the sequel (even though I was like: "A trilogy? Really?!")

Annie Roonie

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Re: 'How to be a fan of problematic things'
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2012, 11:45:31 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;48909
For the gamers out there, there's a series known as "Extra Credits" which is basically Moff's Law as applied to video games, particularly this episode "Art is Not the Opposite of Fun": http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/art-is-not-the-opposite-of-fun

One thing that is noted throughout the series is that games aren't really given the same consideration as books or film (after all, it's "just a game").

Speaking of Avatar, I'll confess I liked the movie because I thought the banshee were cool and the Na'vi are, well, blue-skinned smurfy cat space Pagans (or Native Americans, I suppose would be more accurate) but there are lots of people who (rightly) call it out for being "Mighty Whitey" and ableist (although, as a disabled person myself, I would trade my legs for Na'vi legs, not being able to walk very far, stand for more than fifteen minutes, and having crappy balance SUCKS) but I'll still go see the sequel (even though I was like: "A trilogy? Really?!")

 
The Moff's law and the video were excellent explanations I am so going to use in class. Invariably when we dip into a novel, we are accused of ruining it. These is PERFECT to answer that. And the kids will love it!  Score!

Ty Sunflower and you for the links!

Lokabrenna

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Re: 'How to be a fan of problematic things'
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2012, 12:29:12 am »
Quote from: Annie Roonie;48913
The Moff's law and the video were excellent explanations I am so going to use in class. Invariably when we dip into a novel, we are accused of ruining it. These is PERFECT to answer that. And the kids will love it!  Score!

Ty Sunflower and you for the links!


No problem!

Although, it's ironic, because I remember being in high school and declaring that English class RUINED LITERATURE FOREVER due to over-analysis. Now I tend not to analyze things until after I've finished consuming them. The first time through is "immerse yourself in the story/world, think about what it's saying about the state of humanity later (unless it's GLARINGLY OBVIOUS)".

LiminalAuggie

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Re: 'How to be a fan of problematic things'
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2012, 12:39:20 am »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;48918

Although, it's ironic, because I remember being in high school and declaring that English class RUINED LITERATURE FOREVER due to over-analysis. Now I tend not to analyze things until after I've finished consuming them. The first time through is "immerse yourself in the story/world, think about what it's saying about the state of humanity later (unless it's GLARINGLY OBVIOUS)".

 
I think I had that exact same experience with something like...Brave New World or something, it was just RUINED FOREVER GOSH and I developed this deep divide between things read for school and things read for fun and how I thought about them.

It wasn't until a college Lit class where we really really went in depth with I think Eliot's "The Waste Land" that I realized how beautiful and revelatory some things can become when you sit down and think about them really critically.
Eliot is one of my problematic loves. Yes there's some anti-Semitism going on, but I definitely find it easier to acknowledge that because it's from a different time. The themes in the work are a symptom of the problem in society, not the cause.

It's much more guilt-inducing in modern stuff, though.

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Re: 'How to be a fan of problematic things'
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2012, 12:54:22 am »
Quote from: LiminalAuggie;48920

Eliot is one of my problematic loves. Yes there's some anti-Semitism going on, but I definitely find it easier to acknowledge that because it's from a different time. The themes in the work are a symptom of the problem in society, not the cause.

It's much more guilt-inducing in modern stuff, though.

 
This is pretty much where I stand on the issue.  Writers like Eliot, Heinlein, and Lovecraft were very much products of their times.  Heck, I sometimes like to look at problematic-due-to-age things as time capsules into the time they were written.

Modern writers (i.e., Card) really don't have much of an excuse in my book.


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Annie Roonie

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Re: 'How to be a fan of problematic things'
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2012, 01:28:09 am »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;48918
Now I tend not to analyze things until after I've finished consuming them. The first time through is "immerse yourself in the story/world, think about what it's saying about the state of humanity later (unless it's GLARINGLY OBVIOUS)".


I completely agree. Independent digestion is crucial and I loathed when I was forced fed a teacher's perspective instead of being able to find my own unless, like you said, there is something glaringly obvious that needs to be pointed out.

This idea of accepting that there will be problematic aspects to works, but leaving them be until after a digestion of the material is very appealing. Very frequently critical thinking translates to "remember what somebody else thought for the test" instead of actually involving some independent criticism and examining it.

I feel less guilty about simply reading a story out loud with classes these last few days rather than stopping every few paragraphs to gawk at it.

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