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Author Topic: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God  (Read 9751 times)

spoOk

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Re: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2012, 02:48:10 am »
Quote from: Marilyn/Absentminded;48917
There's a reason the quote rule exists.  If you are not quoting the post you are responding to, you are really not following the rule.  It can't be that much of a bother to click 'reply' on the right post.

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Nyktelios

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Re: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2012, 03:53:01 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;48932
Then perhaps you should talk about dying/resurrecting gods in specific, rather than "the god of witchcraft".  When you overgeneralise, you get people who call you on it.

 
I thought I indicated I was referring to "mostly Wiccan" groups in the first post, but I suppose people have to derail the thread by nitpicking just for the sake of doing it.

caelestisraven

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Re: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2012, 08:30:15 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;48468

I just think that making the God of Witchcraft out to be of equal importance to the Goddess, when he is far more dependent on her than she is on him, is more the product of human issues of social equality rather than theology, although I could be wrong. I'd like to see other people's thoughts on the subject.

 

I think this thread kindof wondered off track a bit there, which is a shame I think this is a very interesting topic :) One of the troubles within paganism is so many different terms that can be vastly different in someways and overlap in others or depending on who you speak to lol

Anyways...

I am actually Dianic (nonwiccan variety). I felt that Wicca was a bit more focused on the God. That the Goddess actually played a supportive role. *I think we each can take our own view from it with none being the correct one, as it may just touch us differently.

I remember in a Dianic study group I belonged to we had quite a deep discussion of the Wiccan Wheel of the year and how we felt it was all really telling the story of the God with the Goddess of the supportive role. I wish I could find my notes from it but I can't seem to. And yet I have also read people's views that Wicca was too focused on the Goddess.

i think we can only really look at it from a Wiccan perspective, as is there any other path with focuses on the balance of God/Goddess? Wicca was created by a man (who some believe to have been a bit sexist even), would it have been different if a woman created the path? I think in truth though no one is perfect, is there any true way to be equal and still acknowledge and celebrate our differences? I think it is something that is still difficult for us to wrap our heads around.

I'm not Wiccan but I thought traditionally Wicca focused on a general God & Goddess and not specific ones from myths or any specific pantheons? There are also Gods and Goddesses where the Goddess does not have supremacy over the God(s). So without pointing to any specific pantheon it kindof makes it hard to say that it should or shouldn't be seen that way.

But in the end it might all come down to our own perspectives. I am Dianic and a feminist, I believe in equality for all. Men & women should be equal. Some see my path as unbalanced and yet I see it as perfectly balanced and supportive of equality.

I think my point is, Putting that the Goddess is this and the God is that is going to limit both IMO. One type of power might be more important at one time and another at another time. So who has the most power or supremacy might shift at different times and for different focus.
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Re: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2012, 10:32:45 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;48980
I thought I indicated I was referring to "mostly Wiccan" groups in the first post, but I suppose people have to derail the thread by nitpicking just for the sake of doing it.

 
Because it's not like accuracy is important enough for people to nitpick about it, nope.

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spoOk

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Re: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2012, 10:39:18 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;49026
Because it's not like accuracy is important enough for people to nitpick about it, nope.

Sunflower

 
here here.
it's not derailing if it's towards clarity of your main point or topic of the post.
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Micheál

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Re: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2012, 06:52:47 am »
Quote from: spoOk;48545
you've mentioned alot of Greek stuff,but what about the Celtic influences too?
isn't there herne and stuff? I'm no Wicca expert but alot of the wiccans I know have their pantheon mostly Celt inspired ad there is the horned god etc.


The Gods of the Wica are very specific deities and consorts relating to the British Isles, containing oathbound names but most commonly referred to as the “Horned God” and “Fertility Goddess” publicly. Although Celtic cultures actually did have land mother Goddesses(such as Ireland) with consorts possessing solar connotations(though not actual solar deities) with mythic fertility themes, they aren’t the Wiccan Gods.

Carnelian does bring up an interesting topic, however, because Wicca&its influences  either directly or indirectly, have had a tremendous influence on modern pagan witchcraft, regardless whether or not one actually includes those philosophies or framework in their own individual practices or traditions.

In ancient pre-Christian religions we usually see Goddesses as specific patronesses of certain elements in life. Wicca on the other hand is a fertility religion, and as mentioned Gardner more or less tried to view the mystery cults as influential to the Great Fertility Goddess theme.(and as mentioned he contemplated publicly Inanna’s descent into the Underworld, myths behind Isis&Osiris, e.t.c.even touched on in the Legend of Aradia in Leland’s Gospel of Witches) Much of that is supposedly linked to Margret Murray’s now debunked Witch-cult hypothesis(whose Witch-cult in Western Europe wasn’t published until 1921), but this theme was present in earlier British thought, especially Victorian&Edwardian folklorists inspired by deities of the ancient world. Frazer’s Golden Bough published in 1890 investigated myth of the fertility cults in relation to religion. In 1887 a book called The Light in Britannia published by Owen Morgan, a Druid writer, claimed ritually sexuality by matched deities was a foundation for fertility religion prominent in British paganism. Gardner himself had friends in the Woodcraft movement, which in the 1920’s had ceremonies referring to the earth as a Goddess, as well as a Horned-God of nature. (They also had an adult initiatory wing of 3 degrees) Aleister Crowley(another one of Gardner’s influences) even wrote in a letter to a friend in 1914,

The time is just ripe for a natural religion. People like rites and ceremonies, and they are tired of hypothetical gods. Insist on the real benefits of the Sun, the Mother-force, the Father-force, and so on, and show that by celebrating these benefits worthily the worshippers unite themselves more fully with the current of life. Let the religion be Joy, but with a worthy and dignified sorrow in death itself, and treat death as an ordeal, an initiation… In short, be the founder of a new and greater Pagan cult.”

Even if modern pagan witchcraft traditions do not pay any reverence to these, Wicca& its influences were influential in neo-Pagan movements that sprouted up after 1951 which influenced the Goddess movement across the pond, as well as other pagan witchcraft(Dianic, Feri, other initiatory ones Wiccanesque or not), that even paved the way for a demand in culture specific historic traditions like Reconstructionism and the like.  For this specific topic, however, we see the relationship between the polar matched pair of “The God” and “Goddess” prominent in different times which does seem to be influenced by human politics, but shouldn't in praxis. We can see the variations in Wiccan material pre&post Valiente, the Farrars as well  who in the 70’s said, “The Goddess is more focused on at this point in time,” for ex., but of course lead to human politics wanting more emphasis on the “The God”(with Stewart behind it again with his ‘Charge of the God’) What has always been there though, is the need for two to coexist, and the mysteries behind the fertility cult revolve around the cycles of life, death, and rebirth, which constantly transform.
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Wickerman

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Re: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2012, 09:35:45 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;48468
I was thinking about the ancient cults  of fertility goddesses and resurrected gods that much of modern pagan Witchcraft is inspired by, such as those of Inanna and Dumuzi, Cybele and Attis, Isis and Osiris/Serapis, and Aphrodite and Adonis. It seems to me that the female deity is usually dominant, with the male consort playing a secondary role.....

 
This thread seems to have gone round a few curves. I will go ahead and through my own curve into it as well. This whole goddess thing was always a turn off for me anytime I got close to committing to a pagan path. Eventually I discovered Asatru, which fit me a lot better.
As to fertility cults, well it is sort of a matter of history. You should remember, the times surrounding these cults, the civilizations were very much agrarian based. A crop failure meant starvation. So it makes since that the goddess a symbol of fertility would be of primary importance. I think that the Horned god might be older, and in times before was probably primary with the goddess being his consort. When our early ancestors were hunter gatherers the god of the hunt would have had greater importance. As the tribes settled down and domesticated animals and crops the god of the hunt became less important, and the goddess of fertility became the primary. Then came christianity, and most if not all of the elder religion was lost. Who can say what evolutionary path it might have taken, what we have today is a best guess, based on what little remains in written record of the old ways. The same is true of Asatru, with what little we have having been recorded by christian monks.
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Kessei

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Re: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2012, 12:10:03 pm »
Quote from: Wickerman;49938
When our early ancestors were hunter gatherers the god of the hunt would have had greater importance. As the tribes settled down and domesticated animals and crops the god of the hunt became less important, and the goddess of fertility became the primary.



I don't think that's necessarily true.  I recall reading in The Reindeer People: Living with Animals and Spirits in Siberia that hunters and trappers of the Eveny saw the land as a female-like force. Entering into a new area, they would pay close attention to any women in their dreams - if she was welcoming, or acted in a (nice) sexual way towards them, that was a sign that they were welcome to hunt/trap and that their efforts would prove fruitful. On the other hand, if she was cold or nasty, they knew to leave the area.

Then there are places like Catal-Huyuk, an early agricultural city, where it seems like bulls were the major focus of fertility rituals.

And a disproportionate number of hunting deities in certain areas of Eurasia are female.


Thinking about general themes and possible cultural connections is an interesting armchair exercise, but I don't think it's particularly wise or helpful to try to shove various ancient religions from different areas, different peoples, and different time periods into modern archetypes.

It's not any surprise to me that modern ideas about the "Fertility Goddess" and "Horned God" reflect our modern cultural stereotypes and gender concepts. Prior societies had different ideas about women. Various periods of ancient Athenians saw women as sex-crazed maniacs who lacked the capacity to appreciate art, beauty, and poetry the same way men did - almost the way that we now conceive of men in the modern USA. It requires a strong understanding of the culture and its underlying worldview for us to really understand how they saw (or see) their gods/goddesses.

Lokabrenna

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Re: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2012, 02:50:53 pm »
Quote from: Wickerman;49938
I think that the Horned god might be older, and in times before was probably primary with the goddess being his consort. When our early ancestors were hunter gatherers the god of the hunt would have had greater importance.


I don't think this is necessarily true because most sustenance at that time would have come from what was gathered/foraged, not hunted. (I think I read somewhere that something like 80% of the food supply before the advent of agriculture came from gathering/foraging.) If the hunters can't catch any animals, humans can make do with plants, but if they can't gather enough food before winter hits? Game over, at least until they develop better tools with which to hunt. The idea that "hunting was more important (because hunting is a Man's Thing (TM), naturally)" has more to do with the androcentrism of the first scholars who studied this period in human history.

Then again, I'm not exactly an expert in prehistoric societies, so all this is armchair speculation.

Asch

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Re: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2012, 03:02:13 pm »
Quote from: Lokabrenna;50607
I don't think this is necessarily true because most sustenance at that time would have come from what was gathered/foraged, not hunted. (I think I read somewhere that something like 80% of the food supply before the advent of agriculture came from gathering/foraging.) If the hunters can't catch any animals, humans can make do with plants, but if they can't gather enough food before winter hits? Game over, at least until they develop better tools with which to hunt. The idea that "hunting was more important (because hunting is a Man's Thing (TM), naturally)" has more to do with the androcentrism of the first scholars who studied this period in human history.

Then again, I'm not exactly an expert in prehistoric societies, so all this is armchair speculation.

 
IIRC from the handful of anthropology courses I took this is usually accurate. I'm sure there are some places where hunting was more vital, perhaps arctic areas where actual plant life would be harder to come by -though harvesting shellfish etc would still be foraging - but generally, yeah.

Wickerman

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Re: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2012, 09:33:39 pm »
Quote from: Kessei;50586
I don't think that's necessarily true.  I recall reading in The Reindeer People: Living with Animals and Spirits in Siberia that hunters and trappers of the Eveny saw the land as a female-like force. Entering into a new area, they would pay close attention to any women in their dreams - if she was welcoming, or acted in a (nice) sexual way towards them, that was a sign that they were welcome to hunt/trap and that their efforts would prove fruitful. On the other hand, if she was cold or nasty, they knew to leave the area.

Then there are places like Catal-Huyuk, an early agricultural city, where it seems like bulls were the major focus of fertility rituals.

And a disproportionate number of hunting deities in certain areas of Eurasia are female.


Thinking about general themes and possible cultural connections is an interesting armchair exercise, but I don't think it's particularly wise or helpful to try to shove various ancient religions from different areas, different peoples, and different time periods into modern archetypes.

It's not any surprise to me that modern ideas about the "Fertility Goddess" and "Horned God" reflect our modern cultural stereotypes and gender concepts. Prior societies had different ideas about women. Various periods of ancient Athenians saw women as sex-crazed maniacs who lacked the capacity to appreciate art, beauty, and poetry the same way men did - almost the way that we now conceive of men in the modern USA. It requires a strong understanding of the culture and its underlying worldview for us to really understand how they saw (or see) their gods/goddesses.

 
This is not a subject that I care to debate. After all only the Gods know for sure what our ancestors did. This is, not just my speculation, I actually read it somewhere. I will go through my library and see if I can locate a source. Of course, that would only prove that it wasn't my idea. There are few truly authoritative sources, and even those that are truly grounded in history are subject to the biases of the original observers. I think someone already said that.
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yewberry

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Re: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2012, 01:22:14 pm »
Quote from: Kessei;50586
It requires a strong understanding of the culture and its underlying worldview for us to really understand how they saw (or see) their gods/goddesses.


And given that we're largely talking about pre-history, that context will likely never be known.  Speculation is fine, but as others have mentioned, usually won't (I won't say "can't", because I believe it is achievable, just not likely) be separated from some degree of cultural bias.

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Re: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2013, 12:27:43 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;48468
I'd like to see other people's thoughts on the subject.

 
I think the reason many (earth) goddesses were focused on is because the earth is present even when the sun is covered and is the place from which we are sprung Our Symbolic mother if you like.
Whilst most sun gods are focused on less because the sun is ever coming and going and changing with the seasons. Sure it is the reason we live but it is the earth that turns the seasons and decides it's own fate.

I don't think they're inequall, the focus on certain deities is comparable to the focus placed upon the concepts they embody within the lives of people in that time and culture

Dark Waters

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Re: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2013, 07:33:54 am »
Quote from: Altair;48534
It's slightly off topic, but I'll also throw in a biological perspective. At least in our species and the vast majority of other mammals, genetically we're all about the female. Sex is determined by the pairing of sex chromosomes: XX makes a female, XY makes a male. YY makes nothing. And if, in an XY individual, expression of the Y chromosome is blocked for some reason, you'll end up with someone who is genetically male but a perfectly healthy female in every physical respect, except that she'll be sterile (the rumored Jamie Lee Curtis effect).

We get half our chromosomes from each parent, but all the other cellular stuff, including the crucial mitochondria, from the mother alone. It's also theoretically possible that if every male of our species died for some reason, the species could continue through some parthenogenetic ("virgin birth"; essentially, the mother cloning herself) means. If we were just left with males, however, it would be Game Over for Homo sapiens.

 
Need to make a slight correction here. the Y chromosome comes from the male parent. While it would be easier to clone an all-female society since it wouldn't require artifical eggs or artifical wombs, all you would ever get is females (setting aside any possible XXYs that might be in the mix). If all the males disappeared tomorrow, we actually could probably do that type of cloning with current technology.

If we could make "blank eggs" and an artifical womb or some other growth chamber, you could clone an all-male society to get both males and females (by doubling up on the male's X chromosome). This would require a bit more technological advancement as I don't believe we are quite there yet. We still need female eggs and wombs at this point, but artifical ones aren't as far away as to be impossible.
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Dark Waters

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Re: Supremacy of the Goddess or Equality of the God
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2013, 07:53:04 am »
Quote from: Carnelian;48468
It makes me wonder if the tendency for modern pagan Witchcraft (mostly Wiccan) traditions to emphasize total balance between God and Goddess is more about political correctness and current gender politics rather than theology.

 
Aside from all the other points about the disparity of the different religions, or even what constitutes "witchcraft". Among the ones that do worship the Sun God/Lunar Goddess or other types of dualities you have some people that emphasize one over the other and some that view it in the reversed way. This is because that may be the one they are drawn too.

Even with the other religions, most people acknowledged all the gods of that pantheon, but they primarily worshipped the one that drew them the most, even if that one was the leader(s) of the pantheon. From their viewpoint, their choice was more important than others saw it as.

Personally I am drawn to the Goddess (represented by the Earth/Moon/Night) and while I acknowledge and respect the God (Living Things/Sun/Day) I don't worship him anywhere as near as much as I do her.
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