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Author Topic: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism  (Read 14106 times)

dionysiandame

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Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« on: January 01, 2012, 05:16:13 pm »
I really couldn't think of another way to name this thread as the ideas I'm attempting to convey aren't full formulated enough in my mind. I will try my best to ask this question in a way that a) doesn't make me look like a complete numbskull and b) conveys my ignorance in as charming a way as possible.

For the past year I have been studying the Golden Dawn tradition of ceremonial magic. First, through the coursework offered by the Ordo Stella Matutina and finally on my own with the help of a couple of online groups. My main issue with the system is the Judeo-Christian symbolism and archetypes. As someone who isn't Christian and who has no connection whatsoever with the entities in question; I not only felt uncomfortable vibrating the words of power, but I felt slightly blasphemous as well.

Sure, that's my problem, but it formed a blockage in my ability to maintain due focus on the work.

I am currently considering joining the O.T.O lodge in my area; which would give me the kind of structure I need while also allowing me to learn from others. But my main question is; can I take the ceremonial components I've found useful and "break them" out of the Judeo-Christian framework?

In doing so does that break the ritual?  Maybe break isn't the right word but it's the best word I can think of.
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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2012, 05:38:46 pm »
Quote from: dionysiandame;37153
I am currently considering joining the O.T.O lodge in my area; which would give me the kind of structure I need while also allowing me to learn from others. But my main question is; can I take the ceremonial components I've found useful and "break them" out of the Judeo-Christian framework?

Yes, but... And it's two fairly large buts. First, it's not something you will likely be able to do right away. You have to really understand and a be familiar with the rituals to be able to rewrite them with different symbolism and expect them to work as expected. Second, you are still going to have to do the rituals as they are in the group. From what I've seen, however, OTO ritual is somewhat less "Christian-based" than Golden Dawn ritual.
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MadZealot

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2012, 12:13:03 am »
Quote from: RandallS;37164
Yes, but... And it's two fairly large buts. First, it's not something you will likely be able to do right away. You have to really understand and a be familiar with the rituals to be able to rewrite them with different symbolism and expect them to work as expected. Second, you are still going to have to do the rituals as they are in the group. From what I've seen, however, OTO ritual is somewhat less "Christian-based" than Golden Dawn ritual.

 
It'd be nearly impossible to remove all the Judeo Christian elements from GD work; even the Qabalistic Cross and the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram, taught to neophytes, are loaded with Biblical meaning.  You can re-work them into a different context but, like Randall said, you have to know what you are doing-- best not to attempt that without a solid ritual background.  

If Christianity really isn't your thing, then you might not want to fiddle 'round with the GD at all.  As you advance in the Order you'll eventually encounter Rosicrucian teachings.  Rosicrucianism is, for lack of a better phrase, Christian 'mysticism.'

If it's mainly the ceremonial work you're after, I'd suggest taking a look at Modern Magick by Donald Michael Kraig.  The work is close enough to GD work that you should find it familiar, and the added bonus is you won't have to wade through the turgid prose in Regardie's tome.  Even though it's to a minimum, the author still uses some JC elements, not to mention some Hebrew words.  Those rituals are effective enough as they are, and would not benefit from tampering or rewrites.
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RandallS

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2012, 07:57:11 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;37184
It'd be nearly impossible to remove all the Judeo Christian elements from GD work; even the Qabalistic Cross and the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram, taught to neophytes, are loaded with Biblical meaning.  You can re-work them into a different context but, like Randall said, you have to know what you are doing-- best not to attempt that without a solid ritual background.

There's an article on our web site where Paul Hume (trained in Thelema) converts the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram to a Wiccanish form, and goes into a bit of detail on how/why. This is what just about everything would have to do through to remove the JCI elements.

Wiccan Lesser Banishing Ritual  of the Pentagram
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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2012, 11:35:08 am »
Quote from: RandallS;37200
There's an article on our web site where Paul Hume (trained in Thelema) converts the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram to a Wiccanish form, and goes into a bit of detail on how/why. This is what just about everything would have to do through to remove the JCI elements.

 
And we have a couple of other articles on less-JCI versions/equivalents, as well - I looked them up for a different thread not long ago.  I'll link to my post in that thread rather than to the articles in the library, since the thread itself - at any rate, the posts relating to the LBRP - may be of some interest.

I'll second your earlier point, too, that OTO ritual is less Judeo-Christian - IME, Thelemites are much more likely to identify as pagan than as Christian, and I've known quite a few practitioners of other sorts of paganism who were also involved in Thelema, and who didn't seem to have too much trouble with JCI-derived elements.  (Including our own Garnet, whom I think I'll give a nudge to about this thread.)

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dionysiandame

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2012, 06:51:42 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;37164
Yes, but... And it's two fairly large buts. First, it's not something you will likely be able to do right away. You have to really understand and a be familiar with the rituals to be able to rewrite them with different symbolism and expect them to work as expected. Second, you are still going to have to do the rituals as they are in the group. From what I've seen, however, OTO ritual is somewhat less "Christian-based" than Golden Dawn ritual.

 
This is precisely why I'm considering joining the O.T.O. I'm not anywhere close to the initiation phase so I will see what evolves in a few months after I've attended events and classes with the local chapter. I have no problem doing rituals in a group and, in fact, that's one of the main reasons I want to join an order in the first place.

I was fortunate to find a Greco-Roman version of the LBRP (in Greek and Latin) and will probably continue studying the qabala just because it's part of the foundations of Western ceremonialism while also being interesting on its own.
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MadZealot

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2012, 03:53:40 am »
Quote from: RandallS;37200
There's an article on our web site where Paul Hume (trained in Thelema) converts the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram to a Wiccanish form, and goes into a bit of detail on how/why. This is what just about everything would have to do through to remove the JCI elements.

Wiccan Lesser Banishing Ritual  of the Pentagram


Nice, he does a great job with it.  That's an example of a ritual adaptation done right-- there's more to it that just swapping one set of God-names for another, more personally palatable, set.  
I did notice that Hume says he still prefers using the Hebrew God-names but not for theological reasons, but because they are words of power (of a sort).  This would suggest that sometimes there's just no reason to tweak or adapt a ritual into something else.
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Garnet

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2012, 09:28:24 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;37222

I'll second your earlier point, too, that OTO ritual is less Judeo-Christian - IME, Thelemites are much more likely to identify as pagan than as Christian, and I've known quite a few practitioners of other sorts of paganism who were also involved in Thelema, and who didn't seem to have too much trouble with JCI-derived elements.  (Including our own Garnet, whom I think I'll give a nudge to about this thread.)

 
*grins* Ok, I'm finally here. Hello, my name is Garnet, and I'm a pagan and an OTO member. :)

In all seriousness, I know people in my own lodge alone who are atheists, monotheists, and polytheists. At least in Thelemic stuff, references to what looks like deity may or may not actually be, and are also open to interpretation. For example, Crowley uses Adonai to refer to the Holy Guardian Angel, and in the Creed of the Gnostic Mass, Crowley uses names of godforms to refer to natural principles. (Who can also be approached as deities. YMMV.)

I'm apparently enough of a Chaote to approach the more JCI bits of ceremonial magic as temporarily stepping into another paradigm, and then stepping right back out again. I've joked that the most Christian thing I did last year was my Goetic workings - although those were also influenced quite a bit by my own paradigm. I recognize that this might not work for other people and could definitely ping as blasphemous. YMMV.

Inspired by an article I read somewhere online, I interpret the "ateh" ("to you") bit of the Qabalistic Cross as directed at the HGA, and as I don't know the name of mine yet, I hold my hand near my heart in silence between "ateh" and "malkuth". (There was also a suggestion to use Aiwass, the name of Crowley's HGA in there. But no way am I invoking someone *else's* HGA!)

There are other authors who've written adaptations or talk about the process of doing them. I know Lon Milo DuQuette writes about his own Goetic adaptations, and Chic and Sandra Tabatha Cicero have some versions of the Middle Pillar based on different "pantheons" in their third edition of The Middle Pillar by Israel Regardie. This manages to be really problematic in a different way, as they have a "shamanic" version featuring names of gods and spirits from various Native American tribes across the continent.

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2014, 10:01:09 pm »
Quote from: dionysiandame;37287
This is precisely why I'm considering joining the O.T.O. I'm not anywhere close to the initiation phase so I will see what evolves in a few months after I've attended events and classes with the local chapter. I have no problem doing rituals in a group and, in fact, that's one of the main reasons I want to join an order in the first place.

I was fortunate to find a Greco-Roman version of the LBRP (in Greek and Latin) and will probably continue studying the qabala just because it's part of the foundations of Western ceremonialism while also being interesting on its own.

 


Personally, I think the issue you are having is not realizing that most Judeo-Christian imagery came from the pagans. I'm a Christian witch myself, so I'm not trying to be biased but historically early Christians (after Jesus' death) were trying to convert the pagans from varioius cultures, so they would steal the symbols and holidays they already had and attached Christian folklore and ideology onto it. If you read far enough in history, you'll see that things such as the cross and Christmas celebrations for example are not exclusive to Jesus. So in short, I'm basically bad-mouthing my own people for having very few original ideas.
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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2014, 10:26:13 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;155107
Personally, I think the issue you are having is not realizing that most Judeo-Christian imagery came from the pagans. I'm a Christian witch myself, so I'm not trying to be biased but historically early Christians (after Jesus' death) were trying to convert the pagans from varioius cultures, so they would steal the symbols and holidays they already had and attached Christian folklore and ideology onto it. If you read far enough in history, you'll see that things such as the cross and Christmas celebrations for example are not exclusive to Jesus. So in short, I'm basically bad-mouthing my own people for having very few original ideas.

 
You're also doing so with REALLY bad history.  Christianity is based out of Judaism - there's overlap with bits and pieces of stuff, but the core of it is NOT some pagan conglomerate.  Fripperies don't count as core.

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2014, 10:37:01 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;155107
Personally, I think the issue you are having is not realizing that most Judeo-Christian imagery came from the pagans. I'm a Christian witch myself, so I'm not trying to be biased but historically early Christians (after Jesus' death) were trying to convert the pagans from varioius cultures, so they would steal the symbols and holidays they already had and attached Christian folklore and ideology onto it. If you read far enough in history, you'll see that things such as the cross and Christmas celebrations for example are not exclusive to Jesus. So in short, I'm basically bad-mouthing my own people for having very few original ideas.

What HeartShadow said.

'Early Christianity,' as in the first 3 or 4 centuries, was a theological clusterfuck.

If by 'theft' you mean 'blended ideas via the normal intercultural contact', I'd be inclined to agree.  Christianity already had its theology, dogma, and liturgical calendar established well before it encountered the cultures it supposedly stole from.

Here is an archived post which knocks down many of the 'Christians steal all the things' myths.  And here's a blog post detailing about Easter, which is not named after Ishtar, okay?

Given your stated path, I'd recommend a gander at ChristoPaganism by J & R Higginbotham.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 10:38:29 pm by MadZealot »
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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2014, 04:36:16 pm »
Quote from: HeartShadow;155109
You're also doing so with REALLY bad history.  Christianity is based out of Judaism - there's overlap with bits and pieces of stuff, but the core of it is NOT some pagan conglomerate.  Fripperies don't count as core.


True, it came out of Judaism but Judaism and even Islam came from early, tribal, pagan societies. They stole from them too. So yes in a sense Christians did steal from pagans. I even read about the inspiration behind the Islamic god, Allah in the early Arabian empires. But yes I have read about the history of Christmas and even Easter and where they started. That said I don't really know much about Hannukah and Passover, but I know a lot of stuff that American people have been told is part of their Christian faith and cannon is actually stolen ancient holidays praising other deities, and religious symbols from ancient faiths, etc. Even the communion ritual is similar to many feeding rituals in neopaganism. Yes I do know my history.
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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2014, 05:01:38 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;155983
True, it came out of Judaism but Judaism and even Islam came from early, tribal, pagan societies. They stole from them too. So yes in a sense Christians did steal from pagans. I even read about the inspiration behind the Islamic god, Allah in the early Arabian empires. But yes I have read about the history of Christmas and even Easter and where they started. That said I don't really know much about Hannukah and Passover, but I know a lot of stuff that American people have been told is part of their Christian faith and cannon is actually stolen ancient holidays praising other deities, and religious symbols from ancient faiths, etc. Even the communion ritual is similar to many feeding rituals in neopaganism. Yes I do know my history.

 
Christianity evolved out of Judaism. It was originally a Jewish sect. It did not steal from Judaism. And it evolved out of earlier forms of Judaism. I'm also pretty sure Modern Judaism is also different in ways from the form that Christianity evolved from due to time and the fact that there was a Diaspora.

Religions and cultures evolve and change. That does not mean they stole it from earlier periods.

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2014, 05:14:54 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;155983
True, it came out of Judaism but Judaism and even Islam came from early, tribal, pagan societies. They stole from them too. So yes in a sense Christians did steal from pagans. I even read about the inspiration behind the Islamic god, Allah in the early Arabian empires. But yes I have read about the history of Christmas and even Easter and where they started. That said I don't really know much about Hannukah and Passover, but I know a lot of stuff that American people have been told is part of their Christian faith and cannon is actually stolen ancient holidays praising other deities, and religious symbols from ancient faiths, etc. Even the communion ritual is similar to many feeding rituals in neopaganism. Yes I do know my history.

 
Food is LIFE.  it's not hard to come up with similar concepts for that.

Seriously - you DON'T know your history if you're saying this stuff.  That's like saying a star can have /only one meaning/ and everything else stole from it.  As opposed to /look up and see stars/.

You're seeing a star and claiming it's stolen.  Look up.

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Re: Removing Judeo-Christian Symbolism
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2014, 05:19:04 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;155983
That said I don't really know much about Hannukah and Passover
You should read up on Passover then.  For one, Easter coincides with Passover because the Crucifixion coincided with Passover.  For another, this is where Christian theology gets its concept of the 'sacrificial lamb', as well as the almost-talismanic view of blood.  The OT stories have much more to do with Easter than some hypothetical "spring equinox fertility rites" (and just *whose* rites, specifically?) or some obscure Germanic goddess with a Northumbrian name.  

Quote
I know a lot of stuff that American people have been told is part of their Christian faith and cannon is actually stolen ancient holidays praising other deities
Aw, what the hell, I'm game.  Can you cite an example?

Quote
and religious symbols from ancient faiths, etc.
Can you name one?

Quote
Even the communion ritual is similar to many feeding rituals in neopaganism.

Ok, timeline alert.  You do know that 'neopaganism' refers to newer pagan traditions-- newer than Christianity by, about, 1950 years-- hence the 'neo' in the name, right?  That makes them distinctly newer than the communion ritual that was enacted at a Supper which, in all likelihood, began as a Passover meal typical of its time.  

In other words, whatever these feeding rituals may be, if they're *at all* related to Communion, it's because the Pagans stole from the Christians.  
:D:
(Sort of like Wicca, which is more guilty of this kind of "theft" than Christianity will ever be.)

Quote
Yes I do know my history.

Good.  Then I await your reply.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 05:20:49 pm by MadZealot »
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