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Author Topic: Queer Paganism  (Read 12863 times)

Pteranotropi

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Re: Queer Paganism
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2014, 09:01:47 am »
Quote from: Valentine;164410
A lot of people forget that almost every time an angel shows up in the Bible, the first thing it says is "Fear not!"--for good reasons!
Just imagine them wiggling their mandibles awkwardly and putting all of their various appendages up and going, "Look, man, whoa, whoa, don't freak out."  It's always worth a giggle, for me.

 
Yes, I seriously doubt gender is the last thing you want to comprehend in regards to angels and their lovecraftian ways.


Same for all deities. To apply sex and gender to them is ultimately futile.


In regards to me personally, as a queer male whose rituals often acquire sexual undertones, I do tend to invoke deities as male, but I am fully aware about how artificial that is.

Especially given how I worship the Sun foremost, who is a deity that has been considered female, male or even both in countless cultures, no matter how fluff bunnies and greco-romans insist them to be male solely.

Redfaery

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Re: Queer Paganism
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2014, 09:20:15 am »
Quote from: Pteranotropi;167695
Same for all deities. To apply sex and gender to them is ultimately futile.

 
I'm not really sure what you mean by this? If you're approaching the gods from a soft polytheistic stance, where they're all aspects of One, it might hold true, but in my experience as a hard polytheist, sex and gender still apply to deities, even though the gods are just as varied in their expressions of it as humans - if not more so.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Pteranotropi

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Re: Queer Paganism
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2014, 12:59:11 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;167697
I'm not really sure what you mean by this? If you're approaching the gods from a soft polytheistic stance, where they're all aspects of One, it might hold true, but in my experience as a hard polytheist, sex and gender still apply to deities, even though the gods are just as varied in their expressions of it as humans - if not more so.

 
In deities more closely associated with civilisation and human experience, perhaps, though even these have been switched around (for instance, Ishtar and Attar are the same deity, their genders just swapped as the cultural norms of the mesopotamians and canaanites differed).

Nyktelios

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Re: Queer Paganism
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2014, 03:28:23 pm »
Quote from: Pteranotropi;167720
In deities more closely associated with civilisation and human experience, perhaps, though even these have been switched around (for instance, Ishtar and Attar are the same deity, their genders just swapped as the cultural norms of the mesopotamians and canaanites differed).

 
I don't know anything about Canaanite polytheism, but Ishtar is a very interesting and gender fluid deity in that she has both male and female aspects. As the morning star, she is a war deity in male form, and as the evening star, she is the feminine goddess of fertility and sexuality. I've heard this was due to the Babylonians identifying their male war deity with the Sumerian Inanna, a feminine deity of both sex and war, so Ishtar became bisexed (is that a word?) as a result. There was also an aspect of Aphrodite on Cyprus who was portrayed with a beard, or as a female with a phallus, so it wasn't that uncommon for ancient deities to cross gender lines.

This reminds me of the Anderson Feri Tradition, which as Darkhawk mentioned earlier has a queer and gender-fluid understanding of the gods. Since gods are spiritual beings, it makes sense to me that they wouldn't have hard male or female sexes, but can manifest in a variety of ways, even when it comes to gender. That's why I think extreme "hard" polytheism can be very simple-minded and superficial, understanding gods on a surface level and not noticing the fluidity of them.

Redfaery

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Re: Queer Paganism
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2014, 05:02:22 pm »
Quote from: Nyktelios;167739
This reminds me of the Anderson Feri Tradition, which as Darkhawk mentioned earlier has a queer and gender-fluid understanding of the gods. Since gods are spiritual beings, it makes sense to me that they wouldn't have hard male or female sexes, but can manifest in a variety of ways, even when it comes to gender. That's why I think extreme "hard" polytheism can be very simple-minded and superficial, understanding gods on a surface level and not noticing the fluidity of them.

 
Well, here's the thing....being queer or gender fluid isn't any less of a physical state than being straight and cis. There are flesh and blood human beings who don't fit the gender binary. For me, I assume that if a deity shows up as a female deity, she wants to be seen as female. Misgendering human beings is pretty damn rude; I'm not going to do it to a god.
KARMA: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Valentine

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Re: Queer Paganism
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2014, 10:33:28 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;167754
Well, here's the thing....being queer or gender fluid isn't any less of a physical state than being straight and cis. There are flesh and blood human beings who don't fit the gender binary. For me, I assume that if a deity shows up as a female deity, she wants to be seen as female. Misgendering human beings is pretty damn rude; I'm not going to do it to a god.

 
Yeah, this.  Deities don't do sex and gender the way we do, necessarily, but unless you don't believe they have individual identities--which I guess is implied by saying the Sun is a deity that's just represented imperfectly by all the various deities associated with the sun, etc.--those identities include gender.  A God may or may not have a body, a sexed body, a body I understand, any of that, but if a God chooses to present as a given gender, I'm going to respect that.
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
"There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
- Terry Pratchett, "A Hat Full of Sky"

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