collapse

* Recent Posts

"Christ Is King" by Altair
[Today at 01:09:34 am]


Re: Cill Shift Schedule by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 11:04:57 pm]


Re: Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 11:21:37 pm]


Re: Spring Has Sprung! 2024 Edition by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 10:24:10 pm]


Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by Altair
[March 21, 2024, 02:52:34 pm]

Author Topic: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans  (Read 20021 times)

Melamphoros

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2744
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2011, 12:08:37 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;36932
I just think we need to have this someplace easy to find for whenever someone starts going on about how all the christmas customs were stolen from the pagans.  I think this has always been a yearly thing, probably twice or thrice yearly since there's easter and halloween, so this post is useful and always relevant.

MAybe we could add the extra sources.  Hutton's good on the folklore, I know others know a lot of them.

 
I think this is the second time we needed to link to it in 2011 alone.  Maybe we could add it to the Wiki?  Would we need Koi's permission before we do that?


Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog

Waldhexe

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Essen
  • Posts: 684
  • Country: de
  • Total likes: 46
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Druidry
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/her
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2011, 02:24:05 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;36942
I think this is the second time we needed to link to it in 2011 alone.  Maybe we could add it to the Wiki?  Would we need Koi's permission before we do that?

I think that's a good idea! (and I have no clue about the permission)

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2011, 02:43:21 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;36942
I think this is the second time we needed to link to it in 2011 alone.  Maybe we could add it to the Wiki?  Would we need Koi's permission before we do that?


You might want to fact check it before TC decides to endorse it.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Melamphoros

  • Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2744
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2011, 03:11:39 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;36955
You might want to fact check it before TC decides to endorse it.

 
Such as...?


Jesus saves, Allah forgives, Cthulhu thinks you will make a great sandwich.
My Spiritual Blog

Starglade

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 404
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2011, 05:33:50 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;36958
Such as...?


::nods:: I think those of us who were around for Koi's time here can vouch for her facts. She was nothing if not thorough. JMHO of course.

Worth what you paid for it, as always.
"The Eightfold Path is sometimes called the pathless path. Each step brings a growing awareness that enlightenment is in the here and now--in the world and in our relationships as we read these words . . . now." -- Jonathan White
http://grammargeddon.com

drekfletch

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New England. On Winnipesaukee, to be more specific
  • Posts: 317
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 5
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Polytheist. Hellenic-ish
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2011, 06:07:54 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;36932
I just think we need to have this someplace easy to find

 
Probably only useful to me, but that's why I included the reference to it being called infamous.  It's a true fact, and I can remember it, and there's only one non-TC reference in all of Google. :D
There is no inherent meaning to life.  Stop looking and give your life meaning.
------------------------------------------
Chapter 91 of The Order War by L.E.Modesitt jr.  If I could quote the entire thing I would.

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10311
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 296
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2011, 06:26:29 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;36942
I think this is the second time we needed to link to it in 2011 alone.  Maybe we could add it to the Wiki?  Would we need Koi's permission before we do that?

I'd rather add it as an article -- that way no one could modify it. Technically, we don't have to ask permission as our rules have given us the right to reuse stuff online on other parts of the site for years, but I will run it by Koi first in case she wants to make any changes.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free

Juniperberry

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 1891
  • Total likes: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2011, 05:11:31 pm »
Quote from: Melamphoros;36958
Such as...?

 
You know, a detailed post would sort of defeat the purpose behind suggesting people fact check posts for themselves (even those written by a popular member). But,  for example, the Catholic Church itself acknowledges that: greenery decorations were inspired by fertility rites and Archbishop Martin of Bragi condemned them, the date setting of Christmas has always been influenced by solar cults (natalis invictus for Rome and spring-time pagan practices for Alexandria), as it was only fitting that the son of God should materialize with the physical sun, the Gregorian Calendar was implemented in 1582, long after the 4th c date of Christmas according to the Julian, and Ulfilas, Apostle to the Goths, was a missionary to the Teutonic people before the implementation of Christmas.

Both Koi and the OP's post are rather superficial when it comes to the controversial observance of Christmas and the dynamics between the pagan and Christian. It was never the 'sacred holiday' that Koi suggests and she fails to mention why it was "low on the totem" pole. Christmas merry-making has been an agitation to the church as late as 1664, when festivities were again condemned. And that goes back to the heresies and the resilient pagan Psyche.

Even though Christianity is based on the Christ coming to earth, it has long been a sin to celebrate his life. Celebrating his birthday was forbidden by the church because it agitated the polytheistic locals that were supposed to be converted into monotheism. The heresies dealt a lot with the nature of Christ- if he is God in man's form than God couldnt truly have a birthday as he's without beginning or end. The birth of Christ is only the appearance of God in man and not the birth of an individual. To the pagans, this concept was hard to grasp, and they reverted back into celebrating a polytheistic Christ deity that God beget. So, Christmas was a thorn to the church and was never wholly Christian, and as an alien philosophy to the polytheists it was never truly pagan. Imo, that's where the real dialogue comes in.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

mandrina

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 890
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2011, 05:50:16 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;37061
You know, a detailed post would sort of defeat the purpose behind suggesting people fact check posts for themselves (even those written by a popular member).

 

I'm not criticising your rebuttal, but to do what you suggest, then we probably need to put up good sources so people can, in fact, fact check.
Katrina

"I have a bad feeling about this."  Every good guy in the Star Wars saga, and an occasional bad guy as well.

SunflowerP

  • Host
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Calgary AB
  • Posts: 9909
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 732
  • Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs!
    • View Profile
    • If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough
  • Religion: Eclectic religious Witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: sie/hir/hirs/hirself
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2012, 10:46:49 am »
Quote from: Juniperberry;37061
Both Koi and the OP's post are rather superficial when it comes to the controversial observance of Christmas and the dynamics between the pagan and Christian.

 
Thing is, Koi wasn't writing a comprehensive article on the subject of pagan/Christian dynamics surrounding Christmas, she was writing a reply to a forum post, which itself was an unusually substantial example of the typical fluffy whine about "Christians stole it from the pagans!"  It's already pretty long as forum replies go, even by TC standards; when the point is rebutting fluffy misconceptions, "comprehensible" (which'd include being relatively brief) trumps "comprehensive".

Forum replies can't reasonably be held to the same standard as formal articles.  While it'd be a fine thing indeed if Koi had found time in her busy life to polish it into an article as she'd hoped to do, it seems to me far better to have it in the unpolished form we do, than not to have it at all.

Sunflower
I'm the AntiFa genderqueer commie eclectic wiccan Mod your alt-right bros warned you about.
I do so have a life; I just live part of it online!
“Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.” - Oscar Wilde
"Nobody's good at anything until they practice." - Brina (Yewberry)
My much-neglected blog "If You Ain't Makin' Waves, You Ain't Kickin' Hard Enough"

Asch

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 883
  • Total likes: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2012, 10:51:17 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;37211


Forum replies can't reasonably be held to the same standard as formal articles.  While it'd be a fine thing indeed if Koi had found time in her busy life to polish it into an article as she'd hoped to do, it seems to me far better to have it in the unpolished form we do, than not to have it at all.

Sunflower

 
Is it though? I'm not trying to be pedantic or pick a fight but it seems that without the original portion that Koi was replying to that the reply is somehow lessened. Perhaps posting the original post she was replying to would help even things out because as it stands it is an interesting read and does work to burst some misconceptions but as Juniperberry pointed out there are some (apparently) glaring oversights (that again, apparently) are due to the reply being focused on a specific post by another person rather than an overall rebuttal of the Christians stole Christmas complaint.

I guess what I'm saying is, if it's not an actual rebuttal of the argument/complaint/concept, why is it being used as one?

Leeway

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 15
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2012, 11:34:38 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;37211
...when the point is rebutting fluffy misconceptions, "comprehensible" (which'd include being relatively brief) trumps "comprehensive".


Interesting. I'm not sure that the depth needed to counter Juniperberry's claim of superficiality regarding Koi's response would be predicated on the state of said response's comprehensiveness.

But that's not what I find interesting; your claim that there were "fluffy misconceptions" is. In general, why not just respond with "that's fluffy." Why go to any length at all in rebutting those ideas? And if a person is going to spend time doing a point-by-point analysis and critique, why do it half-way?

I'm leaving something out. Is it obvious?

Quote from: SunflowerP;37211

Forum replies can't reasonably be held to the same standard as formal articles.


Indeed, but I don't think cites would be too much to ask in a situation where the forum reply in question is being held up as a potential "known good quantity" of facts. Especially regarding a topic that is apparently a regular source of confusion. Having those references would help folks debate those facts (if desired) and keep the discussion on point.

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5219
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1123
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2012, 12:00:03 pm »
Quote from: Leeway;37220
But that's not what I find interesting; your claim that there were "fluffy misconceptions" is. In general, why not just respond with "that's fluffy."

 
Because this is a discussion and debate board, and uninformative responses are barely worth posting?
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

drekfletch

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New England. On Winnipesaukee, to be more specific
  • Posts: 317
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 5
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Polytheist. Hellenic-ish
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2012, 01:21:19 pm »
Quote from: Asch;37213
Is it though? I'm not trying to be pedantic or pick a fight but it seems that without the original portion that Koi was replying to that the reply is somehow lessened.

 
The message Koi was responding to is quoted completely in the text of her reply.  The quotes are offset by +++ bracketing the text.
There is no inherent meaning to life.  Stop looking and give your life meaning.
------------------------------------------
Chapter 91 of The Order War by L.E.Modesitt jr.  If I could quote the entire thing I would.

drekfletch

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: New England. On Winnipesaukee, to be more specific
  • Posts: 317
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 5
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Polytheist. Hellenic-ish
Re: Christmas wasn't stolen from the pagans
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2012, 01:49:05 pm »
Quote from: Leeway;37220
Indeed, but I don't think cites would be too much to ask in a situation where the forum reply in question is being held up as a potential "known good quantity" of facts. Especially regarding a topic that is apparently a regular source of confusion. Having those references would help folks debate those facts (if desired) and keep the discussion on point.

 
I agree with some of your points.  Citations and references would be helpful in expanding and continuing the discussion.

Regarding presentation of the post, I can see how it appears that way, but my intent wasn't that... strong.  Koi's knowledge was well displayed and therefore understood at the time.  The fact that it addresses many of the basic errors made by the 'fluffies' I felt was cause to preserve it.  Unfortunately, the rest of the discussion is lost.  It continued on for at least two more pages (and this was the 33rd post).
There is no inherent meaning to life.  Stop looking and give your life meaning.
------------------------------------------
Chapter 91 of The Order War by L.E.Modesitt jr.  If I could quote the entire thing I would.

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
4 Replies
1709 Views
Last post September 18, 2011, 06:58:53 am
by HeartShadow
35 Replies
5004 Views
Last post November 12, 2011, 10:36:48 am
by SatSekhem
34 Replies
6463 Views
Last post December 03, 2011, 10:16:59 pm
by BunnyMaz
9 Replies
2936 Views
Last post January 14, 2013, 04:24:45 am
by SunflowerP
15 Replies
4074 Views
Last post February 22, 2016, 06:44:55 pm
by RecycledBenedict

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 185
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal