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Author Topic: Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.  (Read 4764 times)

SanatanaDharma

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Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.
« on: December 05, 2011, 08:23:53 pm »
Let me preface this post by saying that I'd like to avoid sharing my own views on this forum just yet, as I'm a neophyte here and well aware of potential abrasive types on forae throughout the internet who like to pounce on neophytes. I'd like to test the waters out first.

I had a few questions after reading the Pagan Primer on this site, and a particular thread where a few forum members claimed that "Paganism" as such was not a religion, but merely a grouping of many disparate religions. The site's Pagan Primer says the same: "Paganism isn't a religion any more than Monotheism is a religion."

Admittedly, my preconceptions aside, I was confused by the capitalisation of both "Paganism" (since the Primer states that it is not a religion) and "Monotheism" as though they were pronouns.

So, I have a few questions:

1. Is there anything more to defining paganism or Paganism than a particular religion being non-Abrahamic (and perhaps identifying as "pagan")?

2. According to this site's Pagan Primer, a religion should not only be non-Abrahamic but self-identify as "pagan". What does this mean in places where the word "pagan" doesn't exist, if self-identification aside, the word should simply mean non-Abrahamic? Isn't "non-Abrahamic" enough , if all these disparate religions have in common is their non-Abrahamic nature?

3. Is there anything, theologically, which unites religions that may profess to be pagan or Pagan?

4. To what degree are the theological differences between varying pagan or Pagan groups irreconcilable?

5. If pagan religions are not a unified, universal Pagan religion, to what degree are the varying religions under the pagan adjective exclusivistic, pluralistic, or universalist in outlook?
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mandrina

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Re: Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2011, 08:36:12 pm »
Quote from: SanatanaDharma;33257
Let me preface this post by saying that I'd like to avoid sharing my own views on this forum just yet, as I'm a neophyte here and well aware of potential abrasive types on forae throughout the internet who like to pounce on neophytes. I'd like to test the waters out first.

I had a few questions after reading the Pagan Primer on this site, and a particular thread where a few forum members claimed that "Paganism" as such was not a religion, but merely a grouping of many disparate religions. The site's Pagan Primer says the same: "Paganism isn't a religion any more than Monotheism is a religion."

Admittedly, my preconceptions aside, I was confused by the capitalisation of both "Paganism" (since the Primer states that it is not a religion) and "Monotheism" as though they were pronouns.

So, I have a few questions:

1. Is there anything more to defining paganism or Paganism than a particular religion being non-Abrahamic (and perhaps identifying as "pagan")?
That is pretty much the definition this site uses:  Non JCI and self identifies as pagan, or neopagan or heathen (if they are willing to stand under the same umbrella).

Quote from: SanatanaDharma;33257
2. According to this site's Pagan Primer, a religion should not only be non-Abrahamic but self-identify as "pagan". What does this mean in places where the word "pagan" doesn't exist, if self-identification aside, the word should simply mean non-Abrahamic? Isn't "non-Abrahamic" enough , if all these disparate religions have in common is their non-Abrahamic nature?
 Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists,  Shintoists, and many of the indigenous religions  of various places are non-Abrahamic and yet also do not self-identify as pagan.

Quote from: SanatanaDharma;33257
3. Is there anything, theologically, which unites religions that may profess to be pagan or Pagan?
 Not really.

Quote from: SanatanaDharma;33257
4. To what degree are the theological differences between varying pagan or Pagan groups irreconcilable?
Depends on which groups you talk to.  Some only have the nonJCI and the self-identify in common.

Quote from: SanatanaDharma;33257
5. If pagan religions are not a unified, universal Pagan religion, to what degree are the varying religions under the pagan adjective exclusivistic, pluralistic, or universalist in outlook?
 You'd have to talk to the practitioners of each religion.  

Pagan is a convenient umbrella term for a myriad of religions who are connected anywhere from being daughter covens of the same founding coven with different dieties, to wildly disparate things that seem to have little relation to each other beyond being nonJCI etc. Really.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 08:38:20 pm by mandrina »
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Re: Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2011, 08:47:40 pm »
Quote from: SanatanaDharma;33257
Let me preface this post by saying that I'd like to avoid sharing my own views on this forum just yet, as I'm a neophyte here and well aware of potential abrasive types on forae throughout the internet who like to pounce on neophytes. I'd like to test the waters out first.


As an aside, most of us try not to be too abrasive, especially when talking to those who are new.  Sometimes we are snarky, but most try to correct misinformation and answer questions as helpfully as possible.

Quote

1. Is there anything more to defining paganism or Paganism than a particular religion being non-Abrahamic (and perhaps identifying as "pagan")?


Not by our standards.  That definition is just one of many out there.  It serves our purposes well so that is the one we used for many years.

Quote

2. According to this site's Pagan Primer, a religion should not only be non-Abrahamic but self-identify as "pagan". What does this mean in places where the word "pagan" doesn't exist, if self-identification aside, the word should simply mean non-Abrahamic? Isn't "non-Abrahamic" enough , if all these disparate religions have in common is their non-Abrahamic nature?


The self-identification part is there mainly for cultural sensitivity.  There are a few groups of people (such as Hindus to give an example) who see the word "pagan" as what the Imperialistic Westerners called their traditional beliefs and that word has a rather negative connotation to them.

Quote

3. Is there anything, theologically, which unites religions that may profess to be pagan or Pagan?

4. To what degree are the theological differences between varying pagan or Pagan groups irreconcilable?


There is nothing theological that unites them.  Pagan religions are very diverse when it comes to theology to the point were some have next to nothing in common.  When you get far enough down the hard end of the Mohs Scale of Polytheism you might get members of Religion A who think that the gods worshiped by Religion B exists but that's about it.

Quote

5. If pagan religions are not a unified, universal Pagan religion, to what degree are the varying religions under the pagan adjective exclusivistic, pluralistic, or universalist in outlook?

 
This all depends on the religion and the individual groups in the religion.  There are some groups who are open and others that are closed to certain people.


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SanatanaDharma

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Re: Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2011, 11:38:58 am »
Quote
3. Is there anything, theologically, which unites religions that may profess to be pagan or Pagan?

4. To what degree are the theological differences between varying pagan or Pagan groups irreconcilable?


Could I ask you both to elaborate a bit more, on these two questions especially. Could you please give me specific examples of self-identifying pagan religions with nothing in common (other than being non-Abrahamic)? Could you illustrate theological differences between various groups that are irreconcilable, and are crucial to the identity of said groups?
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mandrina

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Re: Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2011, 12:08:45 pm »
Quote from: SanatanaDharma;33496
Could I ask you both to elaborate a bit more, on these two questions especially. Could you please give me specific examples of self-identifying pagan religions with nothing in common (other than being non-Abrahamic)? Could you illustrate theological differences between various groups that are irreconcilable, and are crucial to the identity of said groups?

You are talking about groups that are pagan because they are nonabrahamic. that there is what they have in common. That is a negative.  Like what do asians and caucasians have in common, they aren't african.

 Two:   Kemetic and animist.  Although I am sure there is a kemetic animist out there somewhere.

Theology is very individual among groups.  This is not variations on a theme like most christian denominations are, but yes they can all be arranged into a spectrum, but unlike the christian denominations, the ones on either end will not have a book and a god in common, they will have nothing positive in common other than the willingness to say pagan.  The only other things they will have in common is what they are not,  not JCI.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 12:09:58 pm by mandrina »
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Re: Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2011, 12:12:29 pm »
Quote from: SanatanaDharma;33496
Could I ask you both to elaborate a bit more, on these two questions especially. Could you please give me specific examples of self-identifying pagan religions with nothing in common (other than being non-Abrahamic)? Could you illustrate theological differences between various groups that are irreconcilable, and are crucial to the identity of said groups?

 
This is both a very broad and very vague question.

But let's be really blatantly obvious and simplistic:  consider neo-Wicca and Asatru.

Neo-Wicca often has these traits, but since it's such a catch-as-catch-can system individual practices will vary:  orientation towards magic and spellcraft, "all gods are one god; all goddesses are one goddess", focus on natural cycles such as "the Wheel of the Year", rituals done in circles, extensive application of New Age ideas, adaptation of shiny bits of magical doodads from other systems.

Asatru, on the other hand, has an orientation towards family, clan, and group and right living within that context, an assortment of powerful entities, some of which are gods, all of which are distinct individuals, of which the ancestors are of great importance, a different holiday system (though some share dates with neo-Wiccan ones, since neo-Wicca has tenuous roots in northern Europe), no circle-casting, and a strong emphasis on historical evidence and consistency with same with profound distaste for magpie eclecticism.
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Re: Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2011, 12:13:35 pm »
Quote from: mandrina;33512
Two:   Kemetic and animist.  Although I am sure there is a kemetic animist out there somewhere.

 
Bad example. ;)  Animism is not only not really a religion but pretty fundamental to some portions of Kemetic theology.
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Re: Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2011, 12:36:32 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;33515
Bad example. ;)  Animism is not only not really a religion but pretty fundamental to some portions of Kemetic theology.


Thank you for the correction, wicca and asatru were my first thought, but I think you did it far better than me.
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SanatanaDharma

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Re: Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2011, 04:10:09 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;33514
This is both a very broad and very vague question.

But let's be really blatantly obvious and simplistic:  consider neo-Wicca and Asatru.

Neo-Wicca often has these traits, but since it's such a catch-as-catch-can system individual practices will vary:  orientation towards magic and spellcraft, "all gods are one god; all goddesses are one goddess", focus on natural cycles such as "the Wheel of the Year", rituals done in circles, extensive application of New Age ideas, adaptation of shiny bits of magical doodads from other systems.

Asatru, on the other hand, has an orientation towards family, clan, and group and right living within that context, an assortment of powerful entities, some of which are gods, all of which are distinct individuals, of which the ancestors are of great importance, a different holiday system (though some share dates with neo-Wiccan ones, since neo-Wicca has tenuous roots in northern Europe), no circle-casting, and a strong emphasis on historical evidence and consistency with same with profound distaste for magpie eclecticism.

 
I'm not sure how much more specific I can make the question. Specific and irreconcilable differences (of a theological nature) between religious groups that might identify as "pagan."

I ask this question because if one says that all of these different groups are separate religions, that begs the question, how does one make distinctions of religion? Different groups have different theological beliefs (and different levels of toleration for divergence from the group's mainstream theology) and that causes separation between them. One would think (although perhaps this isn't so) that if individuals or groups share a close enough theology, they will identify with each other's religions, to the point that they would actually be of the same identifiable religious orientation. The purpose of my questions is to determine to what degree "pagan" religions diverge, not just on an aesthetic, external, practical level, but on theological level, on the level of ideas.

Admittedly, I find it difficult to believe that non-Abrahamic religions that identify as "pagan" have nothing in common other than being non-Abrahamic (or else wouldn't they simply be referred to as "non-Abrahamic" religions?). There must be something more that causes them to resonate with one another enough to identify as "pagan" than being non-Abrahamic. Or else, what would be the purpose of the term when non-Abrahamic suffices? Certainly to outsiders, emphasis on the natural world, immanent divinity (rather than merely transcendent divinity), variations on animism and polytheism, a plurality of divinity inherent in nature, seem strong contradistinctions to the Abrahamic notion of deity and divinity. I think when I (and many others) hear the word "pagan", we don't just think "non-Abrahamic", we think of those theological currents.
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Re: Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2011, 04:32:33 pm »
Quote from: SanatanaDharma;33546
I'm not sure how much more specific I can make the question. Specific and irreconcilable differences (of a theological nature) between religious groups that might identify as "pagan."


Some people believe in one god, some people believe in many gods.

Is that irreconcilable enough to satisfy you?

Seriously.

Quote

I ask this question because if one says that all of these different groups are separate religions, that begs the question, how does one make distinctions of religion?


Generally speaking, groups that do totally different things, believe totally different things, have differing codes of ethics and behaviour, different standards for joining, and so on cannot sensically be considered the same group.

Quote
Admittedly, I find it difficult to believe that non-Abrahamic religions that identify as "pagan" have nothing in common other than being non-Abrahamic (or else wouldn't they simply be referred to as "non-Abrahamic" religions?).


What specific thing do you think those religions grouped in the category that basically mans "none of the above" should have in common other than being "none of the above"?
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Re: Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2011, 04:58:30 pm »
Quote from: SanatanaDharma;33546
I'm not sure how much more specific I can make the question. Specific and irreconcilable differences (of a theological nature) between religious groups that might identify as "pagan."

I ask this question because if one says that all of these different groups are separate religions, that begs the question, how does one make distinctions of religion? Different groups have different theological beliefs (and different levels of toleration for divergence from the group's mainstream theology) and that causes separation between them. One would think (although perhaps this isn't so) that if individuals or groups share a close enough theology, they will identify with each other's religions, to the point that they would actually be of the same identifiable religious orientation. The purpose of my questions is to determine to what degree "pagan" religions diverge, not just on an aesthetic, external, practical level, but on theological level, on the level of ideas.

Admittedly, I find it difficult to believe that non-Abrahamic religions that identify as "pagan" have nothing in common other than being non-Abrahamic (or else wouldn't they simply be referred to as "non-Abrahamic" religions?). There must be something more that causes them to resonate with one another enough to identify as "pagan" than being non-Abrahamic. Or else, what would be the purpose of the term when non-Abrahamic suffices? Certainly to outsiders, emphasis on the natural world, immanent divinity (rather than merely transcendent divinity), variations on animism and polytheism, a plurality of divinity inherent in nature, seem strong contradistinctions to the Abrahamic notion of deity and divinity. I think when I (and many others) hear the word "pagan", we don't just think "non-Abrahamic", we think of those theological currents.


I personally agree with that mindset that pagan is more of a sub-culture than a religious descriptor. In that case, there are cultural currents that unify the varied theologies. Theses culture tones are partly the reason why asatruar eschew the pagan label and instead prefer the one of heathen.
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SanatanaDharma

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Re: Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2011, 05:04:22 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;33551
Some people believe in one god, some people believe in many gods.

Is that irreconcilable enough to satisfy you?

Seriously.


Darkhawk, if my questions irritate you, you're not required to deal with me. Feel free to ignore them. I'm only curious about two sides I've heard with regards to what "paganism" means (one of which doesn't define it as merely "non-Abrahamic"), and which one is correct.

Your post brings up a few more questions. Which pagan groups believe in one god? Are you referring to soft polytheistic groups? Or are there purely monotheistic pagan groups? I can see how the beliefs of purely monotheistic pagan groups would be irreconcilable with both soft and hard polytheism.

Quote from: Darkhawk;33551
Generally speaking, groups that do totally different things, believe totally different things, have differing codes of ethics and behaviour, different standards for joining, and so on cannot sensically be considered the same group.


That would be correct, yes. Which is why I'm trying to better elucidate the actual degrees of difference the practices of those groups, their theological differences, their codes and ethics, etc.

Quote from: Darkhawk;33551
What specific thing do you think those religions grouped in the category that basically mans "none of the above" should have in common other than being "none of the above"?

 
I don't think they should have anything in common, as though they must. But that begs the question, which I've asked a few times, why identify as "pagan" if the term "non-Abrahamic" would suffice? Why the need for a separate term? Why aren't these forums (which I've very much enjoyed reading) called "The Cauldron: A Non-Abrahamic Religions Forum", for instance.
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SanatanaDharma

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Re: Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2011, 05:04:57 pm »
Quote from: Juniperberry;33557
I personally agree with that mindset that pagan is more of a sub-culture than a religious descriptor. In that case, there are cultural currents that unify the varied theologies. Theses culture tones are partly the reason why asatruar eschew the pagan label and instead prefer the one of heathen.

I can certainly understand why Asatruar would do that. Words have connotations, and the term "pagan" certainly has many connotations to most people.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 05:05:51 pm by SanatanaDharma »
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Re: Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2011, 05:11:48 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;33551
Some people believe in one god, some people believe in many gods.

Is that irreconcilable enough to satisfy you?

Seriously.


Another example, some Pagans believe that all the Gods of the various cultures and religions of the world are just different faces of a single God (or a couple of Gods) while others believe that each of those many Gods are completely separate individuals. These differences are also irreconcilable.

If I can make a suggestion, SanatanaDharma, you might want to read material written about their religion by a couple of dozen Pagans of different religions, including at least: Traditional Wicca, Neo-Wicca, Asatru, Hellenic Recon, Roman Recon, Kemetic recon, Thelema, Druidism (various varieties), Theistic Satanism, and Philosophical Satanism. Asking others to demonstrate the differences between just these religions is probably asking too much. No one likely has the time to do this for you.
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SanatanaDharma

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Re: Paganism not a religion, but an adjective.
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2011, 05:15:40 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;33564
Another example, some Pagans believe that all the Gods of the various cultures and religions of the world are just different faces of a single God (or a couple of Gods) while others believe that each of those many Gods are completely separate individuals. These differences are also irreconcilable.

If I can make a suggestion, SanatanaDharma, you might want to read material written about their religion by a couple of dozen Pagans of different religions, including at least: Traditional Wicca, Neo-Wicca, Asatru, Hellenic Recon, Roman Recon, Kemetic recon, Thelema, Druidism (various varieties), Theistic Satanism, and Philosophical Satanism. Asking others to demonstrate the differences between just these religions is probably asking too much. No one likely has the time to do this for you.

 
Alright. Thank you.
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