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Author Topic: So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?  (Read 3282 times)

Hariti

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So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?
« on: April 26, 2017, 01:03:17 am »
So, I noticed my recent post about Hinduism was moved from this section to the non Pagan section of the board. It made me wonder precisely what this site means by "pagan," since the term is rather broad. I was certainly surprised you do not consider Hindus pagan! The definition on the wiki here does not give many requirements, other than being non-monotheistic. A strict definition of monotheism excludes the veneration of Avatars, Demigods, and other divine beings other than a singular God, and some Hindu sects are openly polytheistic, pantheistic, animistic, atheistic, etc.

The definition of Pagan I am most familiar with is the Roman Catholic definition, which includes everyone who is not a Jew, Muslim, Catholic, Heretic, or Schismatic. Which means Hindus are on the list, along with Shintos, Jains, Zoroastrians, and many other faiths.

I personally identify as Pagan, Heathen, and Hindu, despite having mostly orthodox Hindu beliefs. Those terms were all invented as insult against people who believed differently, ("Pagan" and "Heathen" by Christians and "Hindu" by Muslims) and I am certainly neither Christian nor Muslim, and I'm not Jewish. I would have been seen as Pagan by most Medieval or Ancient Christians, (and still am by many modern ones).

So. For the purpose of this forum, who is Pagan? Is it just the neo-pagans? Do Wiccans count? What about the native beliefs of tribal groups? It seems quite murky.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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Re: So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2017, 01:45:50 am »
Quote from: EnderDragonFire;205515
So. For the purpose of this forum, who is Pagan? Is it just the neo-pagans? Do Wiccans count? What about the native beliefs of tribal groups? It seems quite murky.

 
The definition of pagan used on The Cauldron can be found on our Pagan Primer (a document we are in the process of updating, but it is still a good read): A Pagan religion is a religion that is not Jewish, Christian, or Islamic and self-identifies as Pagan.

The key is "self-identifies". We don't apply the word "pagan" to faiths that don't claim it for themselves. While there may be individual Hindus who self-identify as pagan, that doesn't mean the faith as a whole claims that word.

The same goes for members of indigenous groups -- while I personally know one Elder who is fine with the word "pagan", most Elders I've interacted with are not.

It might seem murky, but our definition is actually far clearer than most other definitions of "pagan" out there.

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Re: So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2017, 11:46:35 am »
Quote from: Morag;205516


The key is "self-identifies". We don't apply the word "pagan" to faiths that don't claim it for themselves. While there may be individual Hindus who self-identify as pagan, that doesn't mean the faith as a whole claims that word.

The same goes for members of indigenous groups -- while I personally know one Elder who is fine with the word "pagan", most Elders I've interacted with are not.

It might seem murky, but our definition is actually far clearer than most other definitions of "pagan" out there.

 
That makes sense. I understand why some people might find it offensive. Thanks for the clarification.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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Re: So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2017, 09:44:00 pm »
Quote from: EnderDragonFire;205515
So. For the purpose of this forum, who is Pagan? Is it just the neo-pagans? Do Wiccans count? What about the native beliefs of tribal groups? It seems quite murky.

 
The modern pagan movement - otherwise known as neo-paganism - developed in the mid to late 1800s from a variety of factors, including but not limited to:

  • responses to the process of disenchantment brought about by the scientific and industrial revolutions
  • the invention of nature
  • the development of folklore studies
  • scientific development
  • the development of archaeology and folklore studies
  • the occult revival
  • the massive disruptions brought about by the US Civil War
  • neo-Classicism
  • Orientalism and neo-Vedanta
  • appropriated fantasies about tribal/natural living
  • mass dissilusionment with established order


A quick summary of where it comes from can be found here; the current most recent public version of the chart of influences and history according to my research is here.  A simplified pagan family tree can be found here; that one is roughly chronological top to bottom, ish, and you may note that Hinduism is one of the non-pagan religions with some level of influence and heritage involved in modern paganism (partly through Orientalist influences, heavily through Theosophy).  Pale blue bubbles are pagan religions; bright blue bubbles are sometimes called pagan and sometimes not; dark blue bubbles are religions that contributed to the origins of but are not part of the pagan revival movement.

"Identifies as pagan" correlates with the pagan revival movement imperfectly, but reasonably.

(And of course Wiccans count; Wiccans are, for better or for worse, the archetypical example of a neopagan.)
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Re: So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2017, 10:33:21 pm »
Quote from: EnderDragonFire;205515
So, I noticed my recent post about Hinduism was moved from this section to the non Pagan section of the board. It made me wonder precisely what this site means by "pagan," since the term is rather broad.

 
To add to what Morag said, and speaking, as the staff member who actually moved the post, of this specific decision - the forum it was moved to has the full name, 'Non-Pagan Religions and Interfaith Discussions'. Because what you were asking about was Hindu perspectives on Abrahamic concepts, it's very much an interfaith discussion (as well as not really falling under 'for beginners').

I hope that clarifies it further for you!

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Re: So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2017, 01:02:14 pm »
Quote from: EnderDragonFire;205515
So, I noticed my recent post about Hinduism was moved from this section to the non Pagan section of the board. It made me wonder precisely what this site means by "pagan," since the term is rather broad. I was certainly surprised you do not consider Hindus pagan! The definition on the wiki here does not give many requirements, other than being non-monotheistic. A strict definition of monotheism excludes the veneration of Avatars, Demigods, and other divine beings other than a singular God, and some Hindu sects are openly polytheistic, pantheistic, animistic, atheistic, etc.

 
Hindus typically don't self-identify as Pagans. In fact, we use the term Hindu(ism) only as a convenience. As I mentioned in another post, "Hinduism" encompasses what may be hundreds of different sects and beliefs. The proper name is Sanātana Dharma, "Eternal Way"; Hindus are Sanātana Dharmi, "followers of ... " I tend to think of "Pagan" as a collective term for the indigenous religions of Europe. I wouldn't consider Yoruba or religious Taoism/Chinese Folk Religion, Shinto, etc. to be Pagan.

Most modern and educated Hindus are pretty much monotheists. The general answer is that there is one God who takes many forms. This is directly from the Rigveda:
ekam sat vipra bahudha vadanti: "One Truth the sages call by many names." You'll also find that reflected in my signature, which is found in the Yajurveda and Skanda Purana. It tells us that Shiva and Vishnu are one God with different forms, flip sides of the same coin. The same can be said of the feminine: the Tridevi (lit. "three goddesses"), conjoined form of Durga, Saraswati and Lakshmi are manifestations of one.

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Re: So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2017, 06:40:07 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;205545
The modern pagan movement - otherwise known as neo-paganism - developed in the mid to late 1800s from a variety of factors

 
The thing is, the term pagan predates the modern pagan movement. An ancient Greek Pagan would still classify as a pagan, despite having no connection to modern paganism.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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Re: So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2017, 06:51:32 pm »
Quote from: EnderDragonFire;205576
The thing is, the term pagan predates the modern pagan movement. An ancient Greek Pagan would still classify as a pagan, despite having no connection to modern paganism.
I kinda doubt that. Isn't the word "pagan" from Latin?

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Hariti

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Re: So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2017, 06:58:03 pm »
Quote from: Jainarayan;205560
Hindus typically don't self-identify as Pagans.

 
While this is true, I think it overlooks the fact that most people who were called pagan in history did not self identify as pagans. It was a label invented by Christians to apply to other people without their consent. People did not start claiming it for themselves until the nineteenth century. Before that, the term was applied to all non-Abrahamic religious groups regardless of whiter or not they identified with it.

As for "Most modern and educated Hindus are pretty much monotheists" well, that really depends on the definition of monotheism one uses. Conservative Jewish and Muslim groups don't even see Christians as monotheists, because of the trinitarian doctrine, and certainly don't see Hindus as monotheists. For that matter, some Hindus don't see themselves as monotheists, take Vivekananda for example.

Many rural, tribal groups in India practice less "orthodox" forms of Hinduism that are soft polytheistic or even hard polytheistic. Hinduism is, as you said, many diverse traditions that don't always agree on basic tenants. However, I personally feel that that all fit the definition of "heathen" or "pagan" as applied by Christians on other cultures from antiquity well into the early modern period.

Christians called the Aztecs heathens, the Inca heathens, indigenous Africans heathens, etc. They did not use the term only for Europeans. Hindus have been called idolaters, devil worshipers, and other insults for centuries by Muslims and Christians.

So, if one were to ignore the "self identifies" clause of the given definition of pagan, I personally feel Hindus fall within the category. If we are only talking about self identified "pagans" then I suppose most, but not all, Hindus count as non-pagan. Of course, if self identification is required, most of the "pagans" in antiquity were probably not really pagan. I doubt Virgil, Plato, or Ramses ever called themselves a "pagan" since the term did not exist at the time.

Basically, my confusion about how the term is used on this site stemmed from the fact that my experience with the term pagan primarily involved the older, Christian usage of the word, where the label was not something you volunteer for. I have personally been called pagan by Christians because I am Hindu, without being asked if I identify with the term! For a long time, I did not identify with it, or with the term Hindu for that matter (I prefer the term Vaishnava), but I was still called pagan. I decided if people were going to call me something, when I didn't actually find the thing they were calling me wrong or offensive (after all, I am not Christian!) I decided to adopt the title for myself.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

Hariti

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Re: So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2017, 06:59:33 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;205577
I kinda doubt that. Isn't the word "pagan" from Latin

Let me clarify; by "classify" I mean they would be put in that category by Christians, not that they would have called themselves that. The term pagan was invented by Christians as a label to apply, largely retroactively, to all people who were not Abrahamic. The ancient Greeks were one of the first groups the label was applied to.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 07:00:21 pm by EnderDragonFire »
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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Re: So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2017, 07:01:31 pm »
Quote from: EnderDragonFire;205579
Let me clarify; by "classify" I mean they would be put in that category by Christians, not that they would have called themselves that. The term pagan was invented by Christians as a label to apply, largely retroactively, to all people who were not Abrahamic.
Oh, ok. Gotcha. :)

I believe the Romans invented the term "pagan" though. It wasn't originally used by the Christians.

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Re: So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2017, 07:24:13 pm »
Quote from: EnderDragonFire;205576
The thing is, the term pagan predates the modern pagan movement. An ancient Greek Pagan would still classify as a pagan, despite having no connection to modern paganism.

 
And yet, when speaking of pagans as a religious category by people who are not attempting to be snide, the modern pagan movement is the thing that's more or less being pointed at.

A lot of people in the modern pagan movement want to claim some sort of continuity or heritage with the ancient religions also termed pagan, but that ranges between 'historically inaccurate', 'overspeaking about cultural survivals many of which are not as ancient as portrayed', and 'appropriative bullshit'.
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Darkhawk

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Re: So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2017, 07:25:13 pm »
Quote from: Redfaery;205580
I believe the Romans invented the term "pagan" though. It wasn't originally used by the Christians.

 
Yep.  It was the term, more or less, for those who weren't followers of the state religion of Rome.

Then the state religion of Rome became Christian.

I've heard of Nova Roma religious officials cracking jokes about this.
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Hariti

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Re: So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2017, 07:34:29 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;205581
A lot of people in the modern pagan movement want to claim some sort of continuity or heritage with the ancient religions also termed pagan, but that ranges between 'historically inaccurate', 'overspeaking about cultural survivals many of which are not as ancient as portrayed', and 'appropriative bullshit'.

 
That's a tricky situation, because some groups that were historically called pagan do still survive, but generally don't call themselves pagan. Hinduism being a prime example.

If Hindus wanted to call themselves pagan, they would be well within their rights, but they don't. The same goes for American Indian groups and native African groups. If they wanted to call themselves pagan, and connect themselves with their ancestors who were called pagan by outsiders, they could, but they don't.

The only example of a surviving pagan belief system that actually call itself pagan is the Finnish "neo"-pagan. (Neo in quotes because there is substantial evidence of direct continuity of belief between historical Finnish pagans and modern ones).

However, I would posit that if an individual member of a group that was historically called pagan wants to claim the term, they are within their rights to do so. For example, and individual Hindu claims the title of pagan, like myself. I don't see it as pretentious, since I believe the same thing that people were once labelled "pagan" for believing.
"The worshippers of the gods go to them; to the manes go the ancestor-worshippers; to the Deities who preside over the elements go their worshippers; My devotees come to Me." ... "Whichever devotee desires to adore whatever such Deity with faith, in all such votaries I make that particular faith unshakable. Endowed with that faith, a votary performs the worship of that particular deity and obtains the fruits thereof, these being granted by Me alone." - Sri Krishna

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Re: So what is the definition of Paganism used on this site?
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2017, 08:33:36 pm »
Quote from: EnderDragonFire;205576
The thing is, the term pagan predates the modern pagan movement. An ancient Greek Pagan would still classify as a pagan, despite having no connection to modern paganism.

Used in that sense, 'pagan' is an antiquated term. It is has been essentially replaced in the social sciences for more accurate terms, e.g. "indigenous religion", "native religion", "tribal/traditional/ethnic religion". The Modern Pagan movement is the main thing that carries on the term, and it pretty much completely reshaped the definition of it in the process.

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