The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

As someone who has mainly studied Greek deities, both academically and spiritually, and it seems like a common problem when it comes to the Hellenic pantheon. Aphrodite is limited in popular understanding to being a goddess of love, Dionysus to being a drunk, etc.

I have recently felt a strong pull towards Demeter (which makes trying to be a good Catholic a bit complicated, let me just say), and I have been struggling with reconciling some of her cultural attributions with my understanding of her. She is commonly regarded as a goddess of agriculture and civilization, which are concepts I struggle with, especially as they led to some problematic institutions such as patriarchy and property ownership, which especially as a female deity, is difficult to find compatible with her. I think of her more as a deity of fertility and motherhood, ruling over the mystery of life, death, and renewal, and the agricultural stuff is just an add-on. It's related to her role as the goddess of the mystery of the life force, in the cycles of vegetation, but the cultivation to produce food for humans is a human-made institution.

It is similar with Hera, who is viewed as a goddess of marriage, but is more accurately a goddess of women in all their stages of life, and the female reproductive power of nature, and becomes the patroness of the patriarchal social institution of marriage through her union with Zeus, who is likely of Indo-European origin.

These are just my thoughts, and I wondered if anyone else has had similar experiences with the deities they follow or study.

 
This is a really interesting topic to bring up. Fortunately for me, Mesoamerican gods are so (superficially) strange that it is much easier to see that they are far more complex than a list of attributes can describe. I think that the 'simplification' of polytheistic deities was a complex process, built on decreasing information and familiarity with both the gods and the phenomena they associate with, combined with the need to make spreading information easy through schooling. I may be able to demonstrate this with an example, though it comes from Religio Romana. Keep in mind, that my knowledge of this is fairly basic, so take it with a grain of salt. Mars, god of war, was also thought of as an agricultural deity. How can a war god be a farming god? But in the Roman Republic soldiers often came from farms. Furthermore, during the Roman Empire, soldiers were rewarded with land upon completion of service.

On a conceptual level, we can use this relationship to understand a very powerful concept: Patriotism. Patriotic war, conducted, in theory at least, to protect land and community, is still a major 'force' in politics today. Mars helps us to understand the connection between conflict, fertility, and politics. That is, if my interpretation is correct (in all honesty, I should use and example from my own religion. But since no one knows anything about it...).

Thus, I tend to characterise gods, not by a list of attributes, but by the connections between the different forces they are connected with and opposed to.

Interestingly, I have a different reaction to the connections you made, although in a different context. In some parts of North America, only women were allowed to hold land, the Haudenosaunee for example. Obviously, this would not be the same in the ancient Mediterranean, but it is a different take on the same basic idea.

As someone who has mainly studied Greek deities, both academically and spiritually, and it seems like a common problem when it comes to the Hellenic pantheon. Aphrodite is limited in popular understanding to being a goddess of love, Dionysus to being a drunk, etc.

I have recently felt a strong pull towards Demeter (which makes trying to be a good Catholic a bit complicated, let me just say), and I have been struggling with reconciling some of her cultural attributions with my understanding of her. She is commonly regarded as a goddess of agriculture and civilization, which are concepts I struggle with, especially as they led to some problematic institutions such as patriarchy and property ownership, which especially as a female deity, is difficult to find compatible with her. I think of her more as a deity of fertility and motherhood, ruling over the mystery of life, death, and renewal, and the agricultural stuff is just an add-on. It's related to her role as the goddess of the mystery of the life force, in the cycles of vegetation, but the cultivation to produce food for humans is a human-made institution.

It is similar with Hera, who is viewed as a goddess of marriage, but is more accurately a goddess of women in all their stages of life, and the female reproductive power of nature, and becomes the patroness of the patriarchal social institution of marriage through her union with Zeus, who is likely of Indo-European origin.

These are just my thoughts, and I wondered if anyone else has had similar experiences with the deities they follow or study.

 
I am trying to study a lot of gods and how to enhance there powers for certain days. today after some study and calculations I have come up with the idea that mercury is a good choice. I shall see how wise my decision is by my feelings today. with the near full moon I am hoping for a good experience throughout the day.

I mostly agree with this. I mean, to an extent I think that the gods' nature is filtered through the cultural lens of the people who encounter and describe them. But they are greater than what we project onto them. And sometimes their nature is not comfortable or nice; sometimes they are knee-deep in things that our modern sensibilities find distasteful or difficult.

 
Waking to the idea that our ancestors who named such gods where not mistaken in there knowledge and wisdom.how they affect modern society so much the more I learn about what they symbolise like Aphrodite goddess of love.

As someone who has mainly studied Greek deities, both academically and spiritually, and it seems like a common problem when it comes to the Hellenic pantheon. Aphrodite is limited in popular understanding to being a goddess of love, Dionysus to being a drunk, etc.

I have recently felt a strong pull towards Demeter (which makes trying to be a good Catholic a bit complicated, let me just say), and I have been struggling with reconciling some of her cultural attributions with my understanding of her. She is commonly regarded as a goddess of agriculture and civilization, which are concepts I struggle with, especially as they led to some problematic institutions such as patriarchy and property ownership, which especially as a female deity, is difficult to find compatible with her. I think of her more as a deity of fertility and motherhood, ruling over the mystery of life, death, and renewal, and the agricultural stuff is just an add-on. It's related to her role as the goddess of the mystery of the life force, in the cycles of vegetation, but the cultivation to produce food for humans is a human-made institution.

It is similar with Hera, who is viewed as a goddess of marriage, but is more accurately a goddess of women in all their stages of life, and the female reproductive power of nature, and becomes the patroness of the patriarchal social institution of marriage through her union with Zeus, who is likely of Indo-European origin.

These are just my thoughts, and I wondered if anyone else has had similar experiences with the deities they follow or study.

I personally feel like I can relate to this feeling very much. For instance, I recently read in a book about different people's personal pagan experiences about a woman who found her patron goddess through her calling out to her, and she got amazing results from learning everything she could about her, trying to understand what she did, and putting herself in her shoes.

I actually chose a very well-known god, Loki, to learn some attributes I personally need more of from him. However, I decided to do research on him to understand his personality and general character in-depth. But nope! I haven't found many online sources that all too helpful with understanding who Loki is. I complained about this and my frustration over the misrepresentation of gods to my friend the other day, and how people pidgeon hole Loki to being a smart, clever, criminal mind.

And really, the way I see it, is that it's more like knowing a character, or person. Like their stories, ideas, symbols, etc. And knowing certain stories, or that ___ is a symbol of ___, or they're the god of ___ is just knowing. What's required (and what makes me succeed in many cases) is *understanding.*

For instance, Xolotl in Aztec mythology is a dog-associated god, the psychopomp, and the god of the evening star, monstrosities, deformities and twins. He's Quetzalcoatl's twin (Quetzalcoatl being the morning star and sacred twin). Being the rejected twin, Xolotl can only stay in the darkness of the underworld and helps guide the sun through, because the Aztecs would usually kill a twin. He was the god of deformities, monstrosities, twins, and rejections, in a sense. Here, in this case, you see how eveyrthing ties together, and connects, and you see the whole god, as well, a whole.

In the same way, it's important for some gods to understand their personality, such as Aphrodite. She was a powerful, powerful goddess you didn't want to cross. She came from Uranus's blood and had the ability to collapse civilizations. But she was also passionate. She'd never back down and gets what she wants, like a cliche highschool queen bee. In the same way, I'd blame her for causing Mark Anthony and Cleopatra's affair, which DESTROYED EGYPT AND CAUSED A CIVIL WAR. In these cases, you actually *understand* the gods.

And also, remember that the early pre-recorded gods were characters or figures which originated from a certain location or people. They were given ideas, associations, and stories, and the myths we have today are all the latest additions, as it was their way of recording and merging myths together into a whole, which si when they also slapped on titles.

If anything, try to get to know the god or goddess more.

I had a similar issue when I first started worshiping Heru-wer, Who I understood mainly as a "god of war". Someone kindly stepped in and reminded me that although He certainly has associations with war, and can be considered a "god of war" in some contexts, it's not all he is. I've had to delve into His mythology, interactions with His other devotees, and UPG in order to gain a fuller (but obviously not nearly complete) understanding.

 
The true weapons of gods of war are not what a crafts man makes but the remnants like sawdust.

A Reminder:

Hi, WitchesBeforeBitches, We don't mind long posts here, but to avoid having a hard-to-read  wall-o'-text, hitting "enter" twice every few lines adds some white  space and makes it easier to follow - I've edited yours to add those  breaks, but it's a really good habit to get into yourself. They don't have to be the "proper" place for paragraph breaks (we're  interested in readability more than technicalities), or a complete  change of thought - some thoughts take a lot of lines and need to be  broken up into sub-thoughts - as long as they're there. This isn't a formal warning, just a reminder.  No  reply is necessary,  but if you have questions or need clarification,  please feel free to  contact a member of staff privately. Thanks! Sunflower TC Forum Staff

 
Oh, ok, I understand. Sorry.

I didn't say she was necessarily gentle, or that agriculture was a later addition. As the personification of the mystery of the life-death cycles, she's can't be all sweetness and light. And I'm sure being associated with agriculture was a part of the development of her worship from very early on, but I don't know if it makes sense with what we know about the effects of agriculture and civilization now. I'm saying that her association with agriculture is rooted to the very patriarchal context of ancient Greek civilization. I don't necessarily agree with the perspective that human cultural and social constructs are reliable sources of the manifestation or revelation of divinity. Maybe I'm a hippie, but I think nature and biology are much purer sources for understanding divinity.

"I get my spirituality from nature and biology" is a valid point of view, but it seems very odd to apply it specifically to a Hellenic goddess as a reason to discount her central historical attributes. Of course, if that's your UPG for Demeter, that's how it goes and I wouldn't try to convert you to a different view, but you posted here saying that it's the true way to understand her and that agriculture is an undesirable pop-culture addition that does not reflect her real nature.

Which is demonstrably untrue. As I pointed out upthread, we have no textual source on Demeter that predates her association with agriculture.

Humans lived as hunter-gatherers for hundreds of thousands of years, and agriculture and civilization have been our way of life for less than ten thousand years, which I think has been more of a disruption of our natural state and our evolutionary development. It brought in patriarchy and the concept of property, and competition over cooperation. In ancient Greece, this is considered a gift to humanity, but I'm not keen on interpreting her ancient titles and associations, specific to a certain context, so literally.

"Agriculture and civilization were a harmful disruption of our natural hunter-gatherer ways" is a common belief. It's also totally unsupported logically and scientifically. Yes, human beings spent a long time living as hunter-gatherers (although there's more and more evidence for agricultural developments in societies we usually think of as Noble Savages purely based in hunting and gathering--in many times and places in history there was no single agricultural revolution, but a more complicated series of steps into farming). That doesn't mean it's the best way for us to live.

You know what is is super new on planet Earth, relatively speaking? Complex multicellular life. Prokaryotes ruled with an iron fist for billions of years; eukaryotes only showed up in the past few hundreds of millions of years. I don't think this means we'd be better off going back into the sea, even if things were simpler then (and even if the Eleusinian Mysteries do require a cleansing in the sea).

I think Aphrodite is a very close parallel, as another deity who represents the mystery of life and death, and whose cultural associations can be problematic when it comes to understanding her deeper nature. Because of her eastern origins, she had more explicit sexual associations, so in Greek mythos, she was described as a vain and vapid deity of love and sex, when she is actually so much more. Sex is an important aspect of the mystery she embodies, of course, but she is not a divine pinup girl.

Every goddess was reduced to shallow misogynist stereotypes in some myths, because ancient Greece was a patriarchal culture.

Personally, I very much doubt that Aphrodite's sexual associations came solely from her strong Ancient Near Eastern connections as a Greek counterpart to Ishtar or Astarte. My own research strongly suggests that the Eastern connection was absorbed into an existing complex of Hellenic Powers perhaps derived from Minoan Crete (not that we're likely to ever know for sure on that count); take a look at the festivals of Ariadne-Aphrodite on Amathus (one of the primary seats of Aphrodite's worship) for some ideas on this.

You're very right that Hellenic society was horrifically patriarchal--to be honest, that's a gentle word for it. The societal erasure of women's stories, as well as the social sanctioning of forced marriage for many teenage girls (which often led to their death in childbirth) was borderline gynocidal. It was also deeply interwoven with the fabric of Hellenic life.

One of the major reasons I work with Hellenic Powers is this: they have existed amidst--and been a touchstone for--some of the worst gendered oppression we know of in human history. I work from the assumption that gods, like people, learn from their experiences. I figure they're likely to know a thing or two that could be useful today, in our increasingly globalized but still misogynist society.