Author Topic: Are times changing for pagan faiths? (Read 3474 times)

Something · « **on:** March 31, 2017, 06:12:31 pm »

With regards to how things began and were being practiced since the beginning, and given what happened with Christianity which has stayed ever since, do you feel that over time especially in the last couple of decades that the old ways will continue to grow and if so do you think things will eventually revert back to how they were? or do you think it will reach a certain stage and then stagnate?
I ask because the numbers for pagan faiths are gathering speed and Christianity numbers are still falling, so why do you think this is?

Sefiru · « **Reply #1 on:** March 31, 2017, 06:48:49 pm »

Quote from: Something;204482

With regards to how things began and were being practiced since the beginning,

Ask n pagans what they think of this and you will get n+5 answers. Some of us will start by asking why you put "began" in the past tense.

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and given what happened with Christianity which has stayed ever since,

A lot of things have happened with Christianity over the last 2000 years. Do you have a specific event in mind?

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do you feel that over time especially in the last couple of decades that the old ways will continue to grow and if so do you think things will eventually revert back to how they were? or do you think it will reach a certain stage and then stagnate?

Neither. Human culture is constantly transforming itself. "How things were" religiously depended a lot on "how things were" technologically, economically, and socially. Unless all recent technology suddenly stops working like in the "Emberverse" novels, there is no going back -- and even in those books, what emerged was not quite like what existed in the past.

Darkhawk · « **Reply #2 on:** March 31, 2017, 07:33:35 pm »

Quote from: Something;204482

With regards to how things began and were being practiced since the beginning,

The 1870s beginning or the 1920s beginning or the 1950s beginning?

Quote

I ask because the numbers for pagan faiths are gathering speed and Christianity numbers are still falling, so why do you think this is?

Because young religious movements have more active draw than old ones, since they're responding to the deficiencies of the establishment.

Yei · « **Reply #3 on:** March 31, 2017, 08:37:38 pm »

Quote from: Something;204482

With regards to how things began and were being practiced since the beginning, and given what happened with Christianity which has stayed ever since, do you feel that over time especially in the last couple of decades that the old ways will continue to grow and if so do you think things will eventually revert back to how they were? or do you think it will reach a certain stage and then stagnate?
I ask because the numbers for pagan faiths are gathering speed and Christianity numbers are still falling, so why do you think this is?

An interesting question, if I understand your intent correctly. At the risk of confirming Sefiru's stereotype, I can think of several possible future developments for Polytheistic faiths.

1) They will continue to grow slowly, as they do currently. This growth will soon level off however, leaving various Polytheistic faiths with small, but stable numbers. For the short term, this is most likely. Total numbers may be substantial, but will still be well behind that of most nations majority religion.

2) There is an explosion of new converts. I'm not sure what could cause this, perhaps climate change? Since polytheistic religions in general (not all of course) tend to stress the importance of nature, they may be in a good place to benefit (as much as is possible during such events). Their eventual success depends upon their ability to provide practical solutions and responses. Even so, I doubt that any polytheistic religion will come to dominate the religious landscape by itself. Even combined, they will likely have less than 1/2 the population, and in the West Christianity will still likely have more followers.

3) A decline. I actually consider this unlikely. As polytheistic religions are diverse I cannot really think of anything that could bring them all down at once. However, it is possible that a resurgent Christianity could absorb back some of its lost converts and use that power to push polytheists back underground. That said, I can only really see this happening in the US (or Latin America). I imagine that such a change would be alienating to many moderates, and Christianity is very fragmented today. I doubt they could present a coherent front.

There is a complication, as all of these things could happen, but in different places. In some countries Christianity may make a comeback. In others, Polytheism might surge into prominence. In large countries, different parts could go different ways. I can see the US experiencing both a Christian resurgence in the south, while an increase in Polytheism elsewhere.

One country that may be interesting to watch is Bolivia. While the country is about 76% Catholic, most do not practise too actively, and in the rural regions it is highly blended with Indigenous worship and Church presence is weak. Combine this with Evo Morales openly worshipping Pachamama and promoting Indigenous identity and pride ...well, interesting things could happen.

Tom · « **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2017, 09:05:34 pm »

Quote from: Something;204482

With regards to how things began and were being practiced since the beginning, and given what happened with Christianity which has stayed ever since, do you feel that over time especially in the last couple of decades that the old ways will continue to grow and if so do you think things will eventually revert back to how they were? or do you think it will reach a certain stage and then stagnate?
I ask because the numbers for pagan faiths are gathering speed and Christianity numbers are still falling, so why do you think this is?

I am not entirely sure where exactly to hang this on, but I'm pretty sure we should also include other religions in our accounting here outside of Christianity and paganism since they are also options to turn to. I would include Islam, Buddhism (though this might also include some pagans) and atheism in any analysis I would make. They are also seen as alternatives to Christianity. Converting to Judaism happens too, but from my understanding it tends to be a smaller amount compared to others.

I'm pretty sure the religious population is more likely to become more diverse rather than less however.

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jverdant · « **Reply #5 on:** April 01, 2017, 05:19:48 am »

Unfortunately I think decline in the long term is likely for a couple reasons. One, and just look at the recent series of blog posts on Patheos for evidence of this, but paganism is geared so much towards "101" style conversion resources that we have a serious problem with figuring out how to hand it down to the next generation. I'm having to adapt things on the fly for my own kids basically from scratch. It almost seems as if modern paganism was designed specifically to be a set of religions for adult converts and it's going to take a lot more work than is currently being done to make it as family centered as the big world religions.

Second, speaking of converts, pagans are famously opposed to proselytizing, so you have to randomly stumble on it to even find out about the existence of all those 101 books and blogs. Like it or not, natural selection exists for ideas as well as species. I don't see how a religion that doesn't proselytize at all can survive in any meaningful numbers to be culturally relevant. Even Buddhists proselytize. There were Buddhist missionaries wandering around in 1st century Palestine! (Wonder if anybody got any ideas from them...)

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Beryl · « **Reply #6 on:** April 01, 2017, 06:46:04 am »

Quote from: jverdant;204503

Unfortunately I think decline in the long term is likely for a couple reasons. One, and just look at the recent series of blog posts on Patheos for evidence of this, but paganism is geared so much towards "101" style conversion resources that we have a serious problem with figuring out how to hand it down to the next generation. I'm having to adapt things on the fly for my own kids basically from scratch. It almost seems as if modern paganism was designed specifically to be a set of religions for adult converts and it's going to take a lot more work than is currently being done to make it as family centered as the big world religions.

Second, speaking of converts, pagans are famously opposed to proselytizing, so you have to randomly stumble on it to even find out about the existence of all those 101 books and blogs. Like it or not, natural selection exists for ideas as well as species. I don't see how a religion that doesn't proselytize at all can survive in any meaningful numbers to be culturally relevant. Even Buddhists proselytize. There were Buddhist missionaries wandering around in 1st century Palestine! (Wonder if anybody got any ideas from them...)

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I think the two are also, to an extent, linked - unlike Judaism (which also does not actively proselytise although conversion's certainly possible - I've done it!), a lot of pagan individuals and possibly also groups are not, I think, entirely comfortable with 'imposing' their religion/beliefs/etc on children (whereas most - though not all - Jews, I think, see it more as enriching their children's upbringing with cultural and spiritual context), probably in part because a lot of pagans were brought up by non-pagan parents.

I think it's very possible to bring up a child within a religion without being dogmatic/One True Wayist about it (my 17yo went to a Jewish primary school and so on, but I was always pretty clear that while we're Jews, if Judaism as a religion* isn't their bag, that's absolutely fine, and I would have done the same if we'd been born Jewish) but can understand why people are hesitant, particularly when, in many areas, it could put your children at risk of bullying or Official Involvement (of the 'Satanic Panic' variety...) I'm definitely seeing more resources on how to parent in a pagan way, which is great, though I haven't looked into them very much because, well, my kid is pretty much an adult now!

*inasmuch as you can separate out the two - I think this is to an extent a pretty Christian worldview, plenty of people find joy and meaning in Judaism as a 'religion' (set of practices, ways of marking time and life events, etc) who are not 'religious' as a Christian would see it (holds to specific beliefs about Deity, afterlife, whatever.)

Something · « **Reply #7 on:** April 01, 2017, 10:06:20 am »

Quote from: Beryl;204505

I think the two are also, to an extent, linked - unlike Judaism (which also does not actively proselytise although conversion's certainly possible - I've done it!), a lot of pagan individuals and possibly also groups are not, I think, entirely comfortable with 'imposing' their religion/beliefs/etc on children (whereas most - though not all - Jews, I think, see it more as enriching their children's upbringing with cultural and spiritual context), probably in part because a lot of pagans were brought up by non-pagan parents.

I think it's very possible to bring up a child within a religion without being dogmatic/One True Wayist about it (my 17yo went to a Jewish primary school and so on, but I was always pretty clear that while we're Jews, if Judaism as a religion* isn't their bag, that's absolutely fine, and I would have done the same if we'd been born Jewish) but can understand why people are hesitant, particularly when, in many areas, it could put your children at risk of bullying or Official Involvement (of the 'Satanic Panic' variety...) I'm definitely seeing more resources on how to parent in a pagan way, which is great, though I haven't looked into them very much because, well, my kid is pretty much an adult now!

*inasmuch as you can separate out the two - I think this is to an extent a pretty Christian worldview, plenty of people find joy and meaning in Judaism as a 'religion' (set of practices, ways of marking time and life events, etc) who are not 'religious' as a Christian would see it (holds to specific beliefs about Deity, afterlife, whatever.)

I meant as the earliest known types of honouring or worship which is a word I detest by the way was of separate deities that have power of certain elements such as the horned nature god drawing that was discovered in a cave dating over 70,000 years old and the fact that this was the way that things were practiced through the years whether the names by the Egyptions or Greeks or norse etc until mankind released the concept of Christianity and this is how it's been prominently until the recent years and now that the number of pagan faiths has started to see a massive rise and a huge fall for Christianity why do you think this is and do you think it will continue until we end up back the way things were? BIT of a mouthful to explain properly but I hope this clears things up... The more ideas the better

Darkhawk · « **Reply #8 on:** April 01, 2017, 11:45:18 am »

Quote from: jverdant;204503

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Darkhawk · « **Reply #9 on:** April 01, 2017, 11:47:06 am »

Quote from: jverdant;204503

Even Buddhists proselytize.

Well, Buddhism is a proselytising religion, like Christianity and Islam. I don't know why it would be surprising that religions that seek converts would seek converts.

Darkhawk · « **Reply #10 on:** April 01, 2017, 12:18:37 pm »

Quote from: Something;204508

and now that the number of pagan faiths has started to see a massive rise and a huge fall for Christianity why do you think this is

The pagan revival movement is a subcultural phenomenon originating in the Romantic period, with close ties to a number of other subcultural phenomena with sociologically nearby origins, to wit: fantastic literature and its associated subcultures, organic gardening, back-to-nature movements, fascism, UFO chasing, feminism, the queer rights movement, Atlantis and ancient aliens, the prosperity gospel, the New Age movement, and so on. All of these phenomena are reactions to the status quo and revisionings of the world into a new form, at some level.

It depends for its existence not only on the early development of anthropological sciences, the phenomenon of social disenchantment tied to the birth of science and its consequences, but the romanticisation of nature (originating in the industrial revolution), the popularisation of the occult (driven in part by the US Civil War and the rise of the gentleman scientist), the invention of nationalism (every Civ player knows that comes rather late), the effects of colonialism, and the vast upswing in new religious movements starting ca. 1850 (which produced a number of religions that are still growing, including Mormonism and evangelical Christianity), and the mass disillusionment that came from the World Wars, the flu pandemic, and the Great Depression. The pagan revival as we know it could not happen without these factors.

So basically you're asking "Why is the new thing that came into being as a response to modern conditions popular when compared to institutional answers?" Because when people are disillusioned with institutional answers they seek other options. It's not complicated.

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and do you think it will continue until we end up back the way things were?

I am fairly certain that "the way things were" depends on things like lack of easy fast travel and communication, comparatively low technology in other regards. I am not a fan of global apocalypse.

jverdant · « **Reply #11 on:** April 01, 2017, 02:41:16 pm »

Quote from: Darkhawk;204515

Well, Buddhism is a proselytising religion, like Christianity and Islam. I don't know why it would be surprising that religions that seek converts would seek converts.

Right, I meant that more in reaction to what I see as a common (at least implicit) attitude from many pagans that proselytizing is somehow a bad thing or an Abrahamic thing while ignoring the fact that almost all successful religions proselytize to some degree.

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Darkhawk · « **Reply #12 on:** April 01, 2017, 03:32:06 pm »

Quote from: jverdant;204518

Right, I meant that more in reaction to what I see as a common (at least implicit) attitude from many pagans that proselytizing is somehow a bad thing or an Abrahamic thing while ignoring the fact that almost all successful religions proselytize to some degree.

Wait, why are we defining "successful religion" as one that proselytises in the first place? Is "success" something that's measured in gaining converts, rather than anything that has to do with the actual religion?

Is Judaism somehow not a "successful religion" because would-be converts are refused multiple times before they're allowed to undergo the process? Are tribal and indigenous religions not "successful religions" (keep in mind that those religions are primarily threatened by murder and oppression)?

What is this measure of "success" and why is it something you consider acceptable?

Beryl · « **Reply #13 on:** April 01, 2017, 04:09:41 pm »

Quote from: jverdant;204518

Right, I meant that more in reaction to what I see as a common (at least implicit) attitude from many pagans that proselytizing is somehow a bad thing or an Abrahamic thing while ignoring the fact that almost all successful religions proselytize to some degree.

As Darkhawk says, that depends on what you mean by 'successful'. Judaism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism and Jainism are, I believe, considered to be about the oldest surviving (as opposed to revived/reconstructed) religions, and none of them proselytises, to my understanding. All may accept converts (with varying degrees of formality/enthusiasm, from my understanding) but none *seeks them out* (which is what proselytising means, I believe). They may not all have huge numbers (although, well, Hinduism is I think the third largest religion in the world) but they've endured for millennia, far longer than Christianity or Islam have been around (which doesn't mean to say they'll all outlast either of those, just that they have been here a long time.) They've all been incredibly meaningful to many, many generations of people, and continue to be so to this day.

jverdant · « **Reply #14 on:** April 01, 2017, 04:30:06 pm »

Quote from: Darkhawk;204520

Wait, why are we defining "successful religion" as one that proselytises in the first place? Is "success" something that's measured in gaining converts, rather than anything that has to do with the actual religion?

Is Judaism somehow not a "successful religion" because would-be converts are refused multiple times before they're allowed to undergo the process? Are tribal and indigenous religions not "successful religions" (keep in mind that those religions are primarily threatened by murder and oppression)?

What is this measure of "success" and why is it something you consider acceptable?

When did I say that? The topic of the thread is numbers - if polytheism/paganism will continue to grow in terms of adherents. In that context, success = more people, or at least enough people to prevent it from becoming extinct. I am suggesting that maybe the lack of any real proselytizing and the current lackluster job paganism does providing the necessary tools and infrastructure to pass the religion along to new generations of non-converts, paganism will inevitably decline.

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