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Author Topic: Are times changing for pagan faiths?  (Read 3433 times)

jverdant

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Re: Are times changing for pagan faiths?
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2017, 04:39:40 pm »
Quote from: Beryl;204524
As Darkhawk says, that depends on what you mean by 'successful'. Judaism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism and Jainism are, I believe, considered to be about the oldest surviving (as opposed to revived/reconstructed) religions, and none of them proselytises, to my understanding. All may accept converts (with varying degrees of formality/enthusiasm, from my understanding) but none *seeks them out* (which is what proselytising means, I believe). They may not all have huge numbers (although, well, Hinduism is I think the third largest religion in the world) but they've endured for millennia, far longer than Christianity or Islam have been around (which doesn't mean to say they'll all outlast either of those, just that they have been here a long time.) They've all been incredibly meaningful to many, many generations of people, and continue to be so to this day.

 
No edit, sorry:
Hinduism at least certainly does proselytize, just not in the "Christian style" way people think of. Even the introduction of Yoga to the west was a conscious effort to spread the essence of Hindu spirituality and it seems to have worked pretty well. ;)

http://www.yogajournal.com/article/history-of-yoga/yogas-trip-america/

Yes, there are exceptions in terms of religions that don't actively seek out new converts. But these are a handful of exceptions and have a large prominence in their respective cultures, so at least they are on people's radar. Like it or not, PR efforts matter.


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Re: Are times changing for pagan faiths?
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2017, 05:52:42 pm »
Quote from: jverdant;204525
When did I say that? The topic of the thread is numbers - if polytheism/paganism will continue to grow in terms of adherents. In that context, success = more people, or at least enough people to prevent it from becoming extinct. I am suggesting that maybe the lack of any real proselytizing and the current lackluster job paganism does providing the necessary tools and infrastructure to pass the religion along to new generations of non-converts, paganism will inevitably decline.

 
I'm not so sure. First of all, the lack of proselytising and infrastructure hasn't stopped polytheism from establishing itself yet, and while absolute numbers are small, religions like Wicca have made astonishing rates of growth in the recent past. Sure, these polytheistic religions lack structure, but that does not mean that faith cannot be passed on to the next generation. Remember, most ancient people probably did not deliberately indoctrinate children in the sense you are thinking of. Children simply grow into the belief system. Of course, declining birthrates can negatively affect this, but that issue is hardly unique to Polytheistic religions.

If polytheism faces problems, I'd say its exposure. It is just not prevalent enough on the social scene to attract converts by osmosis, or generate the required level of social acceptability required for open worship. If that does happen, then polytheism actually does have a means of acquiring worshippers, simply being present and making the alternative known.

Alexeigynaix

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Re: Are times changing for pagan faiths?
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2017, 07:22:12 pm »
Quote from: jverdant;204503
paganism is geared so much towards "101" style conversion resources that we have a serious problem with figuring out how to hand it down to the next generation. I'm having to adapt things on the fly for my own kids basically from scratch. It almost seems as if modern paganism was designed specifically to be a set of religions for adult converts and it's going to take a lot more work than is currently being done to make it as family centered as the big world religions.


I know there's some resources out there for Pagans trying to raise Pagan kids. Starhawk et al's Circle Round. Some blogs, though I can't think of any specific ones off the top of my head. Other Pagans trying to raise Pagan kids. I haven't put any serious effort into finding more such resources because kids are still a ways in my future.

Which isn't to say you're wrong, of course. It's just. Who has practical experiential knowledge of raising Pagan kids? Pagans raising Pagan kids. And what demographic, out of all the various demographics that include Pagan adults, is least likely to have the available time to produce resources so that their practical experiential knowledge can benefit their community? Probably Pagans raising Pagan kids!

And given the highly individual nature of a lot of Pagan worship, I imagine there might be some difficulty to be found in raising a kid (for example) Hellenic polytheist, in the same way one might speak of raising a kid Catholic.

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Re: Are times changing for pagan faiths?
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2017, 08:32:02 pm »
Quote from: jverdant;204527
Yes, there are exceptions in terms of religions that don't actively seek out new converts. But these are a handful of exceptions and have a large prominence in their respective cultures, so at least they are on people's radar. Like it or not, PR efforts matter.

 
Proselytisation is not actually the default mode of religion.  I'm not interested in adopting a Christian religious ethos, personally, as that's where it comes from in my culture.
as the water grinds the stone
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as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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Re: Are times changing for pagan faiths?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2017, 12:41:39 am »
Quote from: Something;204508

A Reminder:
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Your post appears, as far as I can tell, to be a response to Darkhawk @ #3; it doesn't make sense as a response to Beryl @ #7 which is what you quoted. I note that you have already been told that it is up to you to make sure you click the proper post. If you want to reply to a post further upthread, scroll further upthread and hit 'reply with quote' on that post.

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Castus

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Re: Are times changing for pagan faiths?
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2017, 02:52:58 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;204546
A Reminder:
Just a quick note:  Please remember to quote, and to quote the post to which you're actually responding, not just the most recent one in the thread.  It makes the discussion  easier to follow, and it's required by  our  rules.

Your post appears, as far as I can tell, to be a response to Darkhawk @ #3; it doesn't make sense as a response to Beryl @ #7 which is what you quoted. I note that you have already been told that it is up to you to make sure you click the proper post. If you want to reply to a post further upthread, scroll further upthread and hit 'reply with quote' on that post.

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Lee, is this a new edict? I don't remember seeing this before.
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Beryl

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Re: Are times changing for pagan faiths?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2017, 03:27:21 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;204546
A Reminder:
Just a quick note:  Please remember to quote, and to quote the post to which you're actually responding, not just the most recent one in the thread.  It makes the discussion  easier to follow, and it's required by  our  rules.

Your post appears, as far as I can tell, to be a response to Darkhawk @ #3; it doesn't make sense as a response to Beryl @ #7 which is what you quoted. I note that you have already been told that it is up to you to make sure you click the proper post. If you want to reply to a post further upthread, scroll further upthread and hit 'reply with quote' on that post.

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Thanks for this, I found it very confusing...

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Re: Are times changing for pagan faiths?
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2017, 08:20:53 am »
Quote from: Castus;204551
Lee, is this a new edict? I don't remember seeing this before.

 
[MOD=Host Hat On]No, it is not new. The entire point ofrequiring quotes is to make the conversation easy to backtrack. Actually selecting the post you are replying to and quoting it (instead of any random message in the thread) is a requirement for this to work. Common sense should tell you that. If it doesn't, staff will issue reminders -- and eventually warnings if they become necessary.[/MOD]
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Re: Are times changing for pagan faiths?
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2017, 02:52:23 pm »
Quote from: jverdant;204503
Unfortunately I think decline in the long term is likely for a couple reasons. One, and just look at the recent series of blog posts on Patheos for evidence of this, but paganism is geared so much towards "101" style conversion resources that we have a serious problem with figuring out how to hand it down to the next generation. I'm having to adapt things on the fly for my own kids basically from scratch. It almost seems as if modern paganism was designed specifically to be a set of religions for adult converts and it's going to take a lot more work than is currently being done to make it as family centered as the big world religions.

Second, speaking of converts, pagans are famously opposed to proselytizing, so you have to randomly stumble on it to even find out about the existence of all those 101 books and blogs. Like it or not, natural selection exists for ideas as well as species. I don't see how a religion that doesn't proselytize at all can survive in any meaningful numbers to be culturally relevant. Even Buddhists proselytize. There were Buddhist missionaries wandering around in 1st century Palestine! (Wonder if anybody got any ideas from them...)


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I think the points you make are important; however, I see them more as factors which will limit growth rather than factors which will lead to decline. Modern pagan religions have, after all, seen some considerable growth despite the reasons you have mentioned above. I would argue that your first point, while still relevant, is less important than it was decades ago, as modern pagan religions have developed at least some basic "infrastructure". For example, someone forty years ago who was interested in pre-christian germanic religions would likely had great difficulty finding ANY information. Today there are significantly more groups and written literature for them to access. If Heathenry can grow when any information about it was scarce, I think it will continue to grow as communities and traditions acquire greater levels of experience.

I think if we compare modern pagan religions to Christianity, for example, than yes, Christianity has numerous institutional advantages which will make it continue to be a much larger tradition than any contemporary pagan religion by several gigantic orders of magnitude. Quite frankly, I don't think we are at the point where considering modern pagan religions in comparison to Christianity in terms of numbers of practitioners or institutional development is really a good measure of the "success" of such small traditions. I think it would be more realistic to try and evaluate if  modern pagan traditions have developed to the point where they are able to perpetuate themselves; and I think the answer to that would be far more positive.

I honestly think the future for modern pagan religions is "more of the same". We will continue to see slow growth, we will continue to be small religions, we will continue to build the institutional and intellectual foundations for traditions which will outlast ourselves.
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Sefiru

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Re: Are times changing for pagan faiths?
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2017, 07:43:39 pm »
Quote from: Yei;204491
At the risk of confirming Sefiru's stereotype, I can think of several possible future developments for Polytheistic faiths.


That was only three, you're good ;)

I also think a decline is unlikely; for one thing, as communication and society in general becomes less centralized, so too will religion tend towards lots of small groups rather than a few large organizations.

Though, talking about the population of various religions: what is the largest religious group that doesn't have denominations (or other subdivisions)?
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Castus

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Re: Are times changing for pagan faiths?
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2017, 09:57:08 pm »
Quote from: Sefiru;204599
Though, talking about the population of various religions: what is the largest religious group that doesn't have denominations (or other subdivisions)?

 
Bahá'í. There are, technically, groups of Bahá'ís separate from the Universal House of Justice -- generally either more liberal (Reform and Unitarian Bahá'ís) or just at-odds with the governance of the Faith post-Shoghi Effendi -- but I would be shocked if, collectively, they had more than 300 adherents. On the whole, the Bahá'í theological focus on Bahá'u'llah's covenant and the practice of shunning 'covenant-breakers' has resulted in the only major religion which has not been subject to serious schism.
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“Believing in the Lord means you are connected to me no matter when you are poor, sick, or struggling in a relationship. I am always with you. I want you to believe that. The future is uncertain, and much suffering awaits. However, the mission of the believer is to live life doing their best, no matter what the circumstances.” — Ryuho Okawa

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