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Author Topic: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense  (Read 7143 times)

Night Owl

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Sorry if this is in the wrong forum. I considered posting it in 'non-pagan religions' but as this concerns the clash of my beliefs and thoughts about the world that are mainly informed by paganism with what I'm feeling right now I thought I'd post this here.

For the last few months I've felt a pull, like a magnet, towards abrahamic religions. I've tried to shove it to the back of my mind but it keeps coming back every time I read something about one. If this was related to paganism, I would definitely pursue it, but there are a few things that are inconsistent with this: for one, it is indiscriminate between christianity, judaism, and islam, which are, as far as I'm aware, incompatible. For another, I cannot reconcile the belief that there is one true religion with my personal views about the world, or the very nature of this pull. I find issue with the often arbitrary, outdated, and limiting rules placed on their followers, as well as the requirement of absolute faith in whichever holy book they have (this seems to be the norm for religions based on books). I don't like the idea of venerating prophets. I've had legitimate religious experiences with pagan deities. And I'm also gay.

And yet, I have this feeling that I can't shake. I don't know what to think about it, or what steps to take. I think that given this set of circumstances, it's possible (or even likely) that it's misplaced somehow.

In any case, I wouldn't have posted about this if I wasn't 100% sure that there was something. And I have an idea about what it is. But the idea doesn't make any sense.

Thanks for considering this.

ehbowen

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Quote from: Night Owl;204077
For the last few months I've felt a pull, like a magnet, towards abrahamic religions. I've tried to shove it to the back of my mind but it keeps coming back every time I read something about one. If this was related to paganism, I would definitely pursue it, but there are a few things that are inconsistent with this: for one, it is indiscriminate between christianity, judaism, and islam, which are, as far as I'm aware, incompatible. For another, I cannot reconcile the belief that there is one true religion with my personal views about the world, or the very nature of this pull. I find issue with the often arbitrary, outdated, and limiting rules placed on their followers, as well as the requirement of absolute faith in whichever holy book they have (this seems to be the norm for religions based on books). I don't like the idea of venerating prophets. I've had legitimate religious experiences with pagan deities. And I'm also gay.

And yet, I have this feeling that I can't shake. I don't know what to think about it, or what steps to take. I think that given this set of circumstances, it's possible (or even likely) that it's misplaced somehow.

 
I may be treading close to the line of proselytizing in this conversation. I ask the staff to consider the subject as brought up by the OP, and to be gentle, at least at first, if I come too near that line.

I think that it is entirely possible that my God is calling you. My own conviction is that, before all is said and done, He intends to call every single person in this world and the next, human or not. So I don't find the idea of such a call unlikely at all.

The thing is, while I don't doubt that this call is real, I believe that successfully following it all the way back to him will not be simple or easy. I believe that there are a lot of counterfeits out there, "echoes" if you will, especially of the God of Abraham. You've already (correctly, IMHO) noted that the systems of Islam, Christianity, and (as currently practiced) Judaism are incompatible. Presuming that your call is real, it seems that at the present moment the intent is simply to get you moving in the right direction. Ferreting out the details is something you can work on down the road.

Even when you get past the JCI trilemma, there are still important details—many important details—to recognize and choose from. I'm not saying that my God will reject you if you don't have all the details right—if that's the case, I may be in very hot water—but it will leave an opening for one of the many imposters to wedge in and lead you astray. I am convinced that there are many in my own denomination, nationally known figures even, who are actually following a false god.

How far they—and you—wander down the garden path is entirely between them and God. I've been down that garden path myself in my younger years, but from my own experience I strongly believe that if you are "off the rails" but, in your heart, really do want to follow my God, he will reach out and find you. (Good shepherd, anyone?) Of course, if they're really wolves at heart, he will allow them enough rope to hang themselves with.

I'm not going to push this any further at this time; only to say that I will pray that you might have enough light in order to make a free and informed choice. If there is anything that I can do to help shed some light on any questions you may have, feel free to ask.

I do want to say that in my own nearly fifty years of seeking after my God, it took me more than thirty to get to the point where I really started to think I had a grasp on his/their personalities...and I had a church which gave me a very good start from the get-go. I also don't discount the reality of your experiences with other deities; I think that there are a LOT of other personalities "out there" and that the other participants on this board have had valid dealings with them. I just think that many of those other personalities, whether human or divine, still don't fully realize the scope of the ongoing conflict and what is at stake in it. (And I'm not saying that I do, either...but I think I'm starting to have an inkling.)

Finally, let me address the subject of your homosexuality. Please remember that Jesus repeatedly approached prostitutes, tax collectors, and other sinners. But the flip side of that coin is that they did not remain sinners after he dealt with them...by their own free decision to repent. The Bible records that he dealt with them gently. He also dealt with those who were outwardly righteous, but who had evil hearts...we know them as the Pharisees.

There is, though, not a single instance recorded in the Gospels of Jesus reaching out to a person who was openly living a sinful and evil life, and having that person turn him down. Jesus knew better than to cast his pearls before swine. My own understanding of the sin of homosexuality is that it is, at bottom, the embracing and living of a lie. If you choose a lie over the Truth...well, you have made your choice.

But if my God is reaching out to you, he believes that you at least may be willing to leave your sin behind and repent. Sometimes he helps people do that all at once, but more often it is a day-to-day struggle of backsliding, confession, repentance, and then continued progress. But if you choose to follow what is good and right and highest and best, he will help you along that path. And, at the end, you truly will know my God and be able to enjoy him forever.
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Emma Eldritch

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Quote from: Night Owl;204077
I've tried to shove it to the back of my mind but it keeps coming back every time I read something about one.

 
Well. If you keep reading about them, it's not really shocking that you'd be thinking about them as a consequence. If I spend a lot of time reading about Richard Ramriez then I find it difficult to push "OH GOD CHECK THE CLOSETS" to the back of my mind, for example.

Anyway.

Just because you hear a call doesn't mean you have to respond. Let's say for the sake or argument that some god is going "yo, join team Scientology" or whatever. But then you look at the religion and go, "but I think all of this is horseshit." There is exactly zero reason to pursue something that is 100% at odds with your life. You can still check it out, but you don't have to sign up. Interest doesn't have to equal devotion.

From a more psychological perspective, maybe the issues you have with these religions are exactly why you keep zeroing in on them. Maybe it's your brain's way of trying to sort of any lingering issues with that worldview.

Emma Eldritch

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Quote from: ehbowen;204087
There is, though, not a single instance recorded in the Gospels of Jesus reaching out to a person who was openly living a sinful and evil life, and having that person turn him down.

 
Yeah, I'd edit out that part of my biography too.

ehbowen

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Quote from: Emma Eldritch;204091
Yeah, I'd edit out that part of my biography too.

 
However, editing unpleasant details does not appear to be a Biblical pattern. Aside from Jesus Christ himself, there are only two Biblical figures presented in significant detail about which nothing negative is said: Joseph (the son of Israel; aside from non-biblical tradition we really don't know much about the stepfather of Jesus) and the prophet Daniel.
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Emma Eldritch

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Quote from: ehbowen;204093
However, editing unpleasant details does not appear to be a Biblical pattern. Aside from Jesus Christ himself, there are only two Biblical figures presented in significant detail about which nothing negative is said: Joseph (the son of Israel; aside from non-biblical tradition we really don't know much about the stepfather of Jesus) and the prophet Daniel.

 
You're telling me they had better PR. I dig it.

ehbowen

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Quote from: Emma Eldritch;204095
You're telling me they had better PR. I dig it.


If the Bible is truly nothing more than a human book, your view is logical. If, OTOH, it actually is the written record of the revelation of the Supreme God to humanity....

I understand that you take the former view, and act accordingly. I take the latter view, and act accordingly. And I am exceedingly pleased with the direction this path is leading....
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
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Jenett

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Quote from: Emma Eldritch;204090

Just because you hear a call doesn't mean you have to respond.


and

Quote
From a more psychological perspective, maybe the issues you have with these religions are exactly why you keep zeroing in on them. Maybe it's your brain's way of trying to sort of any lingering issues with that worldview.

 
I have, in my past, deep, meaningful and treasured experiences with Jesus. While I appreciate those experiences very much, and while I continue to have respect there (and show it when in appropriate locations), Christianity is not my religion, and my devotion and effort are M'Lady's. Entirely different deity.

(I should clarify here: M'Lady is a usename for a specific deity for whom I do not have a name that lines up with historical evidence, but who is one of the many English deities of water.)

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all have had a strong and significant influence on Western culture (for good reasons and bad, but some of the good reasons are very powerful.) And there's also a thing where it's legitimately complicated to be slightly out of sync with the way they manifest in mainstream society.

I think it's fairly common (not a 'everyone does this' but not a 'very rare' thing either) for people to have a period of trying to figure out what they do about that and what it means for their life, and I think perhaps especially for people whose previous experiences have been fairly narrow interpretations.

One thing you might consider is exploring a wide variety of expressions of these religions in a general way (by which I mean 'light research and ongoing exposure', not 'throw yourself into deep experiences with a bunch of different churches/synogogues/etc.') and see if you keep coming back to similar ideas or concepts as you do that. Again, as Emma says above, curiousity and interest don't mean you have to commit to anything, or should.

There's a ton of materials out there that do this thoughtfully (also a ton that don't...) For example, On Being (previously Speaking of Faith), a radio show (also available as a podcast) by Krista Tippett does this. Your local public library likely has a lot of books aimed at a general audience that include memoirs and people's lived experiences.
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Night Owl

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Quote from: ehbowen;204087

Finally, let me address the subject of your homosexuality. Please remember that Jesus repeatedly approached prostitutes, tax collectors, and other sinners. But the flip side of that coin is that they did not remain sinners after he dealt with them...by their own free decision to repent. The Bible records that he dealt with them gently. He also dealt with those who were outwardly righteous, but who had evil hearts...we know them as the Pharisees.

There's a pretty big difference between being a prostitute or a tax collector and being gay. Both of those are professions and (in the most simple of situations) it would be the person's choice to take that career and also their choice to stop it. You are not born a tax collector.

Being gay, though, has been repeatedly proven to be an immutable characteristic of some people. I'm not about to repent for the act of existence.

My view on the whole thing is that if it turns out that there is a final judgement when we die, my aim is to have lived a life where I improved the world around me regardless, and if a deity takes issue with it then I'll defend my actions.

Quote from: Emma Eldritch;204090


From a more psychological perspective, maybe the issues you have with these religions are exactly why you keep zeroing in on them. Maybe it's your brain's way of trying to sort of any lingering issues with that worldview.

 
That would make sense, and I've already considered that- there is probably something to it but my gut feeling about it is not that. You are right about the fact that I have the choice not to 'pick up the phone' as it were.

I think that it's possible that the draw may be less specific than I've taken it to be (i.e. abrahamic religions are a majority and therefore what I hear about the most) and it's really a pull to be part of a larger religious community or be a henotheist of some description or... Something along those lines.

Night Owl

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Quote from: Jenett;204103
One thing you might consider is exploring a wide variety of expressions of these religions in a general way (by which I mean 'light research and ongoing exposure', not 'throw yourself into deep experiences with a bunch of different churches/synogogues/etc.') and see if you keep coming back to similar ideas or concepts as you do that. Again, as Emma says above, curiousity and interest don't mean you have to commit to anything, or should.

There's a ton of materials out there that do this thoughtfully (also a ton that don't...) For example, On Being (previously Speaking of Faith), a radio show (also available as a podcast) by Krista Tippett does this. Your local public library likely has a lot of books aimed at a general audience that include memoirs and people's lived experiences.

 
This is a good idea and I will definitely have a look at these things. Thanks.

ehbowen

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2017, 09:10:14 am »
Quote from: Night Owl;204104
Being gay, though, has been repeatedly proven to be an immutable characteristic of some people. I'm not about to repent for the act of existence.

 
No; a portion of our present-day society has chosen to consider it such after a few decades of intense propagandizing. My God calls it sin, today as it was back in the days of Paul and Moses.

It is true that not everyone is born with the same vulnerability to this sin, or to others. For example, there are some people with a built-in addiction to alcohol. One drink, and they find it almost impossible to stop. This does not excuse them from the sin of drunkenness; it is instead an ever-present warning to them that they must never again take that "first drink".

Quote
My view on the whole thing is that if it turns out that there is a final judgement when we die, my aim is to have lived a life where I improved the world around me regardless, and if a deity takes issue with it then I'll defend my actions.


"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:19)
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Night Owl

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2017, 09:51:31 am »
Quote from: ehbowen;204109
No; a portion of our present-day society has chosen to consider it such after a few decades of intense propagandizing. My God calls it sin, today as it was back in the days of Paul and Moses.

It is true that not everyone is born with the same vulnerability to this sin, or to others. For example, there are some people with a built-in addiction to alcohol. One drink, and they find it almost impossible to stop. This does not excuse them from the sin of drunkenness; it is instead an ever-present warning to them that they must never again take that "first drink".



"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:19)

 
This is exactly what I meant by "arbitrary". Homosexuality, or acts of homosexuality, harm nobody-- but they're sinful because someone once decided them to be so and that's that.

ehbowen

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2017, 10:03:50 am »
Quote from: Night Owl;204110
This is exactly what I meant by "arbitrary". Homosexuality, or acts of homosexuality, harm nobody-- but they're sinful because someone once decided them to be so and that's that.

 
That view is predicated upon the premise that the Bible is merely a human book by human authors which "just happened" to have an inordinate influence upon Western civilization. The other view, which I hold, is that an omniscient God saw the practice to be inherently destructive, both to the individuals which practice it and the societies which tolerate it, and issued a warning accordingly. And I believe that nothing has happened in the past three thousand years to change his mind....
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2017, 10:42:05 am »
Quote from: Night Owl;204104
There's a pretty big difference between being a prostitute or a tax collector and being gay. Both of those are professions and (in the most simple of situations) it would be the person's choice to take that career and also their choice to stop it. You are not born a tax collector.

Being gay, though, has been repeatedly proven to be an immutable characteristic of some people. I'm not about to repent for the act of existence.

 
Of course, there's also the interpretation that the Roman soldier's servant was actually his lover, given the terminology used and the commonality of such relationships in the time, and Jesus had nothing to say about the relationship; he praised the man's faith.
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as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2017, 02:23:34 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;204098
If the Bible is truly nothing more than a human book, your view is logical. If, OTOH, it actually is the written record of the revelation of the Supreme God to humanity....

I understand that you take the former view, and act accordingly. I take the latter view, and act accordingly. And I am exceedingly pleased with the direction this path is leading....
I tend to distrust people who balantly ignore good evidence that the Bible was edited and translated in ways that made the text mean different things in different translations and has shown to have multiple conflicting versions over the centuries and still claim that man had no influence on it.

TBH the one monotheistic religion that seems to have the best claim of having a book that is actually still the divine word of god as it was said is Islam as the Quran is still read in the language it was transmitted in to Muhammad. This was actually done on purpose because they saw what happened with Christianity's primary text.

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