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Author Topic: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense  (Read 7141 times)

Darkhawk

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2017, 03:44:54 pm »
Quote from: Tom;204118
I tend to distrust people who balantly ignore good evidence that the Bible was edited and translated in ways that made the text mean different things in different translations and has shown to have multiple conflicting versions over the centuries and still claim that man had no influence on it.

 
Hell, there's the whole 'so, what is the genealogy of Jesus, and why do people keep tracking it through Joseph anyway' thing, and that's not getting out of the problem of reconciling the Gospels.

Fred Clark (my favorite Baptist) comments on some of the issues with textual interpretation in a bunch of posts, including these (note: he is particularly interested in and enraged by the construction of theologies to justify slavery; since that is intrinsically bound up with the history of his religion he is morally called to act as a modern prophet on the matter (my interpretation, not his)):

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2014/12/29/the-bible-is-clearly-ambiguous-but-not-that-kind-of-ambiguous/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2015/04/23/inerrancy-white-evangelicals-and-the-sin-of-racism/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/05/28/slavery-seafood-sexuality-and-the-southern-bible/

They are all worth reading, to see how someone can acknowledge and wrestle with these issues - and their history - within a Christian context.  I mean, we on the outside can just sit on the sidelines and eat popcorn if we want to, but actually this sort of exegesis is not just a witness for Christianity and a prophetic call to justice within a Christian context, but an exemplar of how to religion like a responsible adult that's vitally useful for anyone who has to wrestle with how to make this stuff work.  (Especially reconstructionists and related stuff, since we have to go back and wrestle with the same sort of legacy bullshit and historical perversions in order to find the nuggets of goodness and bring those forward.)
as the water grinds the stone
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Night Owl

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2017, 05:59:08 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;204121
Hell, there's the whole 'so, what is the genealogy of Jesus, and why do people keep tracking it through Joseph anyway' thing, and that's not getting out of the problem of reconciling the Gospels.

Fred Clark (my favorite Baptist) comments on some of the issues with textual interpretation in a bunch of posts, including these (note: he is particularly interested in and enraged by the construction of theologies to justify slavery; since that is intrinsically bound up with the history of his religion he is morally called to act as a modern prophet on the matter (my interpretation, not his)):

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2014/12/29/the-bible-is-clearly-ambiguous-but-not-that-kind-of-ambiguous/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2015/04/23/inerrancy-white-evangelicals-and-the-sin-of-racism/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/05/28/slavery-seafood-sexuality-and-the-southern-bible/

They are all worth reading, to see how someone can acknowledge and wrestle with these issues - and their history - within a Christian context.  I mean, we on the outside can just sit on the sidelines and eat popcorn if we want to, but actually this sort of exegesis is not just a witness for Christianity and a prophetic call to justice within a Christian context, but an exemplar of how to religion like a responsible adult that's vitally useful for anyone who has to wrestle with how to make this stuff work.  (Especially reconstructionists and related stuff, since we have to go back and wrestle with the same sort of legacy bullshit and historical perversions in order to find the nuggets of goodness and bring those forward.)

 
Wow. There's more disagreement within Christianity than I've seen in the most argumentative discussion of paganism, and you'd think there'd be less to argue about, but... I guess that's not the way it pans out.

I'm thinking right now that before making any big decisions, it might be wise to approach the deity/entity using a ritual framework that I'm already familiar with and see if that helps me sort it out.

RandallS

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2017, 06:05:33 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;204109
No; a portion of our present-day society has chosen to consider it such after a few decades of intense propagandizing. My God calls it sin, today as it was back in the days of Paul and Moses.

It is true that not everyone is born with the same vulnerability to this sin, or to others. For example, there are some people with a built-in addiction to alcohol. One drink, and they find it almost impossible to stop. This does not excuse them from the sin of drunkenness; it is instead an ever-present warning to them that they must never again take that "first drink".


The idea that the Christian God sets up some people to fail and go to hell for eternity is common in some forms of Christianity (particularly some branches of Protestant Christianity) -- but such a deity is at best "not-good" and IMHO completely unworthy of worship.
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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2017, 06:37:36 pm »
Quote from: Night Owl;204104

That would make sense, and I've already considered that- there is probably something to it but my gut feeling about it is not that. You are right about the fact that I have the choice not to 'pick up the phone' as it were.


Oh, yeah, not to put down your gut feelings - I actually think your gut tends to be a better guide than other people when it comes to spirituality.

On the topic of not picking up the phone... I had something along those lines happen a year or two again. I had a very strong pull towards a certain one-eyed old bastard... but after a few experimental meet-n-greets I decided against any commitments. (Not even so much because of the god in question - it was really more an issue with the followers.)

Quote
I think that it's possible that the draw may be less specific than I've taken it to be (i.e. abrahamic religions are a majority and therefore what I hear about the most) and it's really a pull to be part of a larger religious community or be a henotheist of some description or... Something along those lines.

 
You could definitely try exploring communities, see if that satisfies. I understand it can be harder in pagan circles if you're not one particular flavour of pagan, but there are open groups and I think UU churches and whatnot. Failing that, you could try to start a study group or something yourself.

Beryl

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2017, 06:39:48 pm »
Quote from: Night Owl;204077

For another, I cannot reconcile the belief that there is one true religion with my personal views about the world, or the very nature of this pull. I find issue with the often arbitrary, outdated, and limiting rules placed on their followers, as well as the requirement of absolute faith in whichever holy book they have (this seems to be the norm for religions based on books). I don't like the idea of venerating prophets. I've had legitimate religious experiences with pagan deities. And I'm also gay.

 
FWIW, this stuff wouldn't necessarily be a barrier to Judaism (depending on which branch, I guess.) (Not trying to proselytise in any way - that being sort of super not cool in Judaism was one of the things that appealed to me about it. Just putting forward my understanding of these things.)

Judaism, for a start, does NOT claim to be the only true religion. At most it claims to be the only true religion *for Jews*. It is generally seen, in Judaism, as better for someone who is born a gentile (non-Jew) to remain a good gentile (and thus subject to fewer rules, at least with regard to the Jewish G-d - you may wish to look up 'Noachide' for more on this) than to become a Jew and be a crappy Jew (for varying values of 'crappy'.)

Of course, conversion is possible, and different branches/denominations/whatever we call it (brain fog, sorry) have differing views of what is expected of converts (and whether they accept conversions through other branches)- very roughly speaking, the further to the 'right' of the Progressive - Orthodox scale (where Charedi/'ultra-Orthodox' = right and I suppose in the US probably Reconstructionist/Liberal in the UK would be at the very left, at least in terms of somewhat established movements) the more closely one is expected to stick to halacha (Jewish law as laid out in the five books known as the Torah and expanded on in several centuries' worth of discussion, debate, meandering 'what ifs' and so on) and live in a mostly Jewish neighbourhood, marry a fellow Jew (actually this is generally expected by all but the most left-end-of-spectrum groups), dress modestly, and so on. But all, or nearly all, Jewish branches will have some form of conversion process.

All that being said, Judaism generally speaking has no particular requirement for belief. Or at least, one is supposed to at least go along with the general idea that G-d is One, and such, there are certain parameters of belief which are (again, this is a bit of a sliding scale) thought of as More Jewish than others, but for instance when I converted I asked my (Liberal) rabbi about my tendency toward some sort of polytheism (at the time it was a lot less than now) and they said it wasn't a problem, so long as I was able to reconcile it to my own satisfaction.

At my official 'hello I'd like to convert' interview thingy, there was probably a bit of a chat about what I believed, but there was never any sense that there was a wrong answer. Jews are after all known as Israel, the one(s) who wrestle with G-d. We are expected and encouraged to learn, debate, question. Of course, in practice, some groups may be a bit more question-y than others (and I suspect we'd all claim that our own preferred branch is the most questioningest of all!)

I've never been asked to venerate a prophet and am not honestly quite sure what that means. I mean, I suppose there's an encouragement of respect towards them, and there's the whole 'setting a place for Elijah' thing, but... eh.

As for the experiences with other deities thing, well, part of that perhaps depends on how hard or soft your polytheism is (my own is kinda moderately hard, it'd be a lot easier if I could just view Brigid and El (for want of a better term - can't abide 'Yahweh' and YHWH just tends to get read as that) as 'aspects of a cosmic Oneness' or something, I suppose) and how comfortable you can get with that. FWIW it's possible to interpret the Torah as suggesting/admitting that there are other gods around (otherwise how could we have other gods before this one?) and I know a few people who have El as their 'primary deity' so to speak, but also have some connection with others. Provided they don't privilege their other deities over El, all seems okay.

And as far as being gay goes, well, again, this depends on branches, but certainly along the progressive end of the scale, you'll find LGBT rabbis, community workers, etc. I'm a bisexual enby and used to work for the 'head office' of a Jewish branch, and one of my colleagues joked (on finding out that I was bi) 'oh, don't tell [boss], he thought he'd finally hired a straight person!!' In fact, I know of several Jewish orgs who have a lot less of a problem with LGBT people than with, say, interfaith couples.

It can be very well argued that there is *nothing* in the Torah or other major Jewish sources (Tanach, Talmud, etc) about *being gay* as we understand it today, that is, being a person who solely feels romantic and/or sexual attraction to people of the same gender. There's stuff which can be read as being about sex between two men being forbidden (although this can be argued against, too - some reckon it's a prohibition on 'temple prostitute' type activities, some that certain 'acts' are prohibited, some that 'lying with a man as with a woman' basically means 'pretending that your boyfriend is a lady', etc) but even the most conservative understanding of it can only really be used to justify 'well, you shouldn't ought to act on those impulses' and even then it's difficult to really say with any certainty that it's prohibiting same-gender sexual behaviour within the context of a loving relationship/marriage, as opposed to just shagging for the hell of it, and so on. (And generally speaking, Judaism is not really an anti-sex religion, it's just a pro-sex-within-loving-committed-married-relationships sort of a one - it's actually a mitzvah to sleep with your spouse on Shabbat and so on (if you're both consenting.))

It may also be worth looking into Judaism-based-paganisms (that is, paganisms that treat El as part of a pantheon, often including the Shechinah (who is IIRC roughly speaking the feminine aspect of the same deity but sometimes gets viewed as a separate entity and may or may not have originally been one)) although this can be tricky to find material about. I have a couple of books called Magickal Judaism and... ugh, I can't remember, will try to track it down and come back to this (but in a separate post of course) which deal with this rough area, I haven't finished reading either of them yet (reading list as long as the Nile...) but they both seem decent.

Darkhawk

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2017, 06:57:52 pm »
Quote from: Night Owl;204124
Wow. There's more disagreement within Christianity than I've seen in the most argumentative discussion of paganism, and you'd think there'd be less to argue about, but... I guess that's not the way it pans out.

 
Well, you know, two thousand years of practice arguing vs. a hundred fifty years of practice arguing, max.
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we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Darkhawk

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2017, 07:02:04 pm »
Quote from: Beryl;204128
At my official 'hello I'd like to convert' interview thingy, there was probably a bit of a chat about what I believed, but there was never any sense that there was a wrong answer. Jews are after all known as Israel, the one(s) who wrestle with G-d. We are expected and encouraged to learn, debate, question. Of course, in practice, some groups may be a bit more question-y than others (and I suspect we'd all claim that our own preferred branch is the most questioningest of all!)


I have occasionally commented that my impression of Judaism is a several thousand year argument with and about Hashem.  (And sometimes Hashem is required to keep his butt out of it.)

Quote
It may also be worth looking into Judaism-based-paganisms (that is, paganisms that treat El as part of a pantheon, often including the Shechinah (who is IIRC roughly speaking the feminine aspect of the same deity but sometimes gets viewed as a separate entity and may or may not have originally been one)) although this can be tricky to find material about. I have a couple of books called Magickal Judaism and... ugh, I can't remember, will try to track it down and come back to this (but in a separate post of course) which deal with this rough area, I haven't finished reading either of them yet (reading list as long as the Nile...) but they both seem decent.

 
A term for some versions of this is "Jewitchery".
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Niuve

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2017, 07:52:15 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;204132
I have occasionally commented that my impression of Judaism is a several thousand year argument with and about Hashem.  (And sometimes Hashem is required to keep his butt out of it.)


 
A term for some versions of this is "Jewitchery".

 
Might be worth it to look into the mystic forms of the Abrahamics, too.  There's a lot that goes on in the Catholic Church to this day that smacks of mysticism (exorcisms, lighting candles, using the incense, having the altar with bread and wine, etc to name the obvious ones...). You could take that and run the solitary route, or even just find like-minded folks. Where I live, there's a lot of ppl going that route. My bff has a Jesus candle, the Virgin Mary and Michael on her altar along with Buddha and all her crystals. There's actually a store/church down the road that sells sage and incense alongside saint candles, they perform wedding ceremonies for gay couples, and offer psychic services. But they do this all under the Catholic/Christian God. In Arizona. I've never been, so I don't know how they deal with discrepancies, but I imagine it's not a lot diff than how pagan recons and eclectic solitaries deal with the ones they run into.

Then there's also Gnosticism, the book of Enoch, the Kabbalah, etc....all Abrahamic in origin, but the communities that practice and study that sort of thing aren't likely going to tell you that who you are is a sinful choice that you're making. Which is kinda nice, ya know? ;p


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ehbowen

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2017, 09:31:20 pm »
Quote from: Tom;204118
I tend to distrust people who balantly ignore good evidence that the Bible was edited and translated in ways that made the text mean different things in different translations and has shown to have multiple conflicting versions over the centuries and still claim that man had no influence on it.

TBH the one monotheistic religion that seems to have the best claim of having a book that is actually still the divine word of god as it was said is Islam as the Quran is still read in the language it was transmitted in to Muhammad. This was actually done on purpose because they saw what happened with Christianity's primary text.

 
I will not deny the human role in the recording and transmission of the Scriptures if you will not deny at least the possibility of the divine role. As in, my God seeing the end result, including everything done by the copyists and translators, and saying, "Yes, that is an accurate representation of what I want to say."
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ehbowen

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2017, 09:34:26 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;204126
The idea that the Christian God sets up some people to fail and go to hell for eternity is common in some forms of Christianity (particularly some branches of Protestant Christianity) -- but such a deity is at best "not-good" and IMHO completely unworthy of worship.

 
But in my view it is not my God that "sets up some people to fail," it is the Adversary and the Slanderer in his attempt to use the, "Certainly you wouldn't condemn all those people" defense.
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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2017, 09:41:38 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;204148
But in my view it is not my God that "sets up some people to fail," it is the Adversary and the Slanderer in his attempt to use the, "Certainly you wouldn't condemn all those people" defense.

 
It almost feels to me, that Jesus sets people up to feeling the "certainly you wouldn't condemn all those people" sentiment after teaching others to be compassionate and forgiving in all circumstances. Turn your cheek, forgive, and love...but steer clear the sinners. Live and breathe my word and example....except in that case. Then you can go back to throwing stones. Nbd.


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ehbowen

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2017, 10:12:27 pm »
Quote from: Niuve;204149
It almost feels to me, that Jesus sets people up to feeling the "certainly you wouldn't condemn all those people" sentiment after teaching others to be compassionate and forgiving in all circumstances. Turn your cheek, forgive, and love...but steer clear the sinners. Live and breathe my word and example....except in that case. Then you can go back to throwing stones. Nbd.


Before I answer I need to know which mode you expect me to be in. There is Preacher Mode, in which every word had better be backed up by revealed Scripture and you must not go out on any limbs which you are not absolutely sure of. Then there is the casual conversation between friends, in which you can speculate and say things that you're not absolutely sure about but that you think in the long run shed good light on the subject. I generally work in that latter mode, but I am capable of reverting to Preacher Mode if you demand it.

Assuming that I am free to speculate and to put forth "impressions", well, I think that...it's been tried. Turn the other cheek, and all. I believe that at some point after the resurrection of Jesus, when Satan was cornered and knew it...that my God, at Jesus's urging, was willing to completely forgive Satan and offer him a fresh start. His hope was that Acts 16:25-34 and Luke 7:40-48 would play out on that larger stage for real; that Satan would be grateful for forgiveness, would repent, and would come to truly love God.

My impression is that, at least at first, this looked to be the case. Satan can be a good actor. But while he was mouthing words of gratitude and repentance, in his heart of hearts he was thinking, "WHAT a SAP!" I think that we humans see only a faint echo of this timeline; instead, Satan was looking for an opening to stab God in the back and gain revenge. My own best guess is that this opening occurred with Muhammad ca. 600 AD.

I'll try to avoid that particular garden path any further; while my ideas might make interesting reading as speculative theological fiction they're not grounded enough for an audience which takes religion and deity seriously. The bottom line is that I now believe that God's current policy is given in Matthew 18:23-35: Offer forgiveness, yes. Sincere forgiveness. But if that forgiveness is abused, or if you then turn around and fail to forgive others...you must pay the very last penny.

So I think that my God does sincerely offer forgiveness and wants us to offer forgiveness...but "forgiveness" does not mean calling evil good or good evil. If you want to be reconciled with my God you need to be willing to accept Truth on his terms...or else be prepared to prove to him why your way is right and his is wrong. This has been done...I feel quite confident that he no longer takes the "might makes right" position of Job 38-41 and that, if there is one passage he would erase from the Bible to make himself look better, it is that one. But he said it, he takes responsibility for it, and he will accept the fallout from it including whatever damages are due.

So, basically, if you realize you're in a hole...stop digging.
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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2017, 10:31:31 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;204152

So I think that my God does sincerely offer forgiveness and wants us to offer forgiveness...but "forgiveness" does not mean calling evil good or good evil. If you want to be reconciled with my God you need to be willing to accept Truth on his terms...or else be prepared to prove to him why your way is right and his is wrong. This has been done...I feel quite confident that he no longer takes the "might makes right" position of Job 38-41 and that, if there is one passage he would erase from the Bible to make himself look better, it is that one. But he said it, he takes responsibility for it, and he will accept the fallout from it including whatever damages are due.

 
So if one could "prove to Him why [one's] way is right and His way is wrong," then what makes you feel that God would "erase" Job 38-41 from the Bible but not Leviticus 20:13? Is it just your UPG? I certainly don't blame or judge you if it is...I think every person does that to different degrees and, honestly, I don't really see that as bad. Spirituality is pretty fluid imo.

If anything, I sense this generation of very brave and compassionate people may do just that: prove to be worthy of God's divine love and acceptance as they are - gay or not. I have good friends whom are gay and have a very deep relationship with the Christian god. And like you said, it's been done before.


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Tom

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2017, 10:52:40 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;204147
I will not deny the human role in the recording and transmission of the Scriptures if you will not deny at least the possibility of the divine role. As in, my God seeing the end result, including everything done by the copyists and translators, and saying, "Yes, that is an accurate representation of what I want to say."

 
Except there's contradictions inherent within the text and how do you know that this is the true current end result anyways, considering that there are multiple end results due to multiple translations into multiple languages?

In fact, how do you justify the arrogant idea that only your particular sect of one particular religion knows the true mind of the divine? That particular arrogance is very off putting to someone who believes that the divine wants us to use the wonderful minds that we have to question it and interrogate it.

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Re: I feel a strong pull towards abrahamic religions, but it makes no sense
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2017, 10:53:25 pm »
Quote from: Niuve;204153
So if one could "prove to Him why [one's] way is right and His way is wrong," then what makes you feel that God would "erase" Job 38-41 from the Bible but not Leviticus 20:13? Is it just your UPG? I certainly don't blame or judge you if it is...I think every person does that to different degrees and, honestly, I don't really see that as bad. Spirituality is pretty fluid imo.

If anything, I sense this generation of very brave and compassionate people may do just that: prove to be worthy of God's divine love and acceptance as they are - gay or not. I have good friends whom are gay and have a very deep relationship with the Christian god. And like you said, it's been done before.


Yes, it's entirely UPG. I honestly think I have a real "connection" with my God, but I have to seriously acknowledge the possibility that he's scratching his head right now and saying, "He just said what?"

Even so, if I may continue in speculative/UPG mode...I think that my God took (is taking) a really hard look at this topic specifically, starting about a hundred years ago. It was intended as a theoretical/thought exercise; probing people's reactions in dreams and so forth. However, somebody—most likely Old Scratch in the lead role, but there are several others, including probably several in this audience—wanted to "make it real".

And so that timeline is progressing. For real, around us as we speak. My UPG about this is quite firm: They've seen enough. At least as of this present moment, they're not about to change their position on this specific sin. I believe that they had given serious thought to abandoning this timeline entirely, pulling their own people out (AKA The Rapture), and letting it go its own way. I believe that Satan would like that eventuality, very much.

The long and the short of it is that they aren't going to do that. They will follow this timeline as long as it takes to ensure that all of the victims are rescued and all of the perpetrators are punished. In the meantime, though, it is real. You think that you can make this into a better world by rewriting their commandments; well, this is your chance. If you really can make this into paradise on earth by doing things your way, by your rules, then maybe they will stop and reconsider. However, the way things are going now, it is more likely to end up as hell on earth rather than heaven on earth.
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

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