collapse

* Recent Posts

"Christ Is King" by Altair
[Today at 01:09:34 am]


Re: Cill Shift Schedule by SunflowerP
[Yesterday at 11:04:57 pm]


Re: Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 11:21:37 pm]


Re: Spring Has Sprung! 2024 Edition by SunflowerP
[March 21, 2024, 10:24:10 pm]


Stellar Bling: The Good, the Bad, the OMG! by Altair
[March 21, 2024, 02:52:34 pm]

Author Topic: Updating To Modern  (Read 3722 times)

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5219
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1123
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Updating To Modern
« on: March 08, 2017, 12:32:52 pm »
So I wrote this post and suddenly got to thinking.

For those people who are dealing with ancient pantheons and their theologies, we often have a bit of a gap to deal with: those powers and ways of relating to the world grew up in a particular time and place, and the assumptions are written in landscapes which many of us don't live in.

And even if we did live in those landscapes, they don't mean the same things anymore.  The Nile doesn't flood anymore.  A world of reliable house heating and nature in need of protection from people rather than vice versa is not the enduring struggle for survival that northern Europe once knew, and so on.

How do people wrestle with these questions?
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Tom

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 399
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
    • http://serpentinetom.wordpress.com
Re: Updating To Modern
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2017, 12:54:16 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;203536
So I wrote this post and suddenly got to thinking.

For those people who are dealing with ancient pantheons and their theologies, we often have a bit of a gap to deal with: those powers and ways of relating to the world grew up in a particular time and place, and the assumptions are written in landscapes which many of us don't live in.

And even if we did live in those landscapes, they don't mean the same things anymore.  The Nile doesn't flood anymore.  A world of reliable house heating and nature in need of protection from people rather than vice versa is not the enduring struggle for survival that northern Europe once knew, and so on.

How do people wrestle with these questions?

 
The tactic I seem to be taking when it comes to wrestling with this question is to poke at the history that has happened since the era the gods were worshiped in the particular locales they're associated with and how they would evolve with their people, including people who have immigrated to other places. This would probably inform them on how they would interact with our world today because as humans adapted, I would believe our gods would adapt too.

That way you can have a easier time of figuring out how things would shift instead of feeling like you have to make a huge jump at one moment. Granted, it also assumes that you believe that your gods still had some sort of a relationship with the world even though people no longer worships them and I know not everyone believes that.

Megatherium

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • *
  • Posts: 303
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 68
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Heathen(ish)
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Updating To Modern
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2017, 03:08:27 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;203536
So I wrote this post and suddenly got to thinking.

For those people who are dealing with ancient pantheons and their theologies, we often have a bit of a gap to deal with: those powers and ways of relating to the world grew up in a particular time and place, and the assumptions are written in landscapes which many of us don't live in.

And even if we did live in those landscapes, they don't mean the same things anymore.  The Nile doesn't flood anymore.  A world of reliable house heating and nature in need of protection from people rather than vice versa is not the enduring struggle for survival that northern Europe once knew, and so on.

How do people wrestle with these questions?


One reason why I stepped back a bit from focusing on reconstruction is that so many of the things I was learning about were just not relevant or practical to my life. I'll try to outline a few of these issues below.

- Communal nature of worship:A lot of religious activities for historical heathen cultures seemed to be directed towards maintaining group identity and bringing benefits to the community as a whole. To some extent this exists for me when I participate in the rituals of the local Heathen community. However, that community is separate from my family who tend to be outright atheists or "spiritual but not religious". The use of religious ritual to strengthen family bonds is absent for me, though I do still find the focus on the family/community to be a useful idea.

- Worship for "Benefits": Historical heathen groups seemed to use religious ritual at least partly as a way to ensure that their crops would grow, the winter would pass, the children would be healthy, etc. In my situation modern technology and science generally ensure that survival is not a concern. For me, worship of the Gods is more about giving thanks for what I already have than trying to prevent calamity.

- Ancestor worship: The physical location of one's ancestors in close proximity to their homes was important for some heathens. Because my ancestors graves are not geographically close, I tend not to focus on their physical remains as a major part of my worship.

In addition, because my grandparents were Christians, I tend to be a bit cautious when making offerings. I think about my grandparents often (because I don't think they have any problem with being remembered), but when I make offerings, I make a point of saying they are for my ancestors in general, so that they are not coerced into being part of a religious ritual they may not be comfortable with.

Offerings to Wights: Historical Heathens seemed to make offerings in order to a) placate beings they had displaced when creating new villages/farms and b) when crossing dangerous "wild" territory. "A" is not particularly relevant for me as I am a city-dweller whose urban space was created before I was born, but "B" is still quite useful for me (though I tend to seek out those types of experiences). In addition, I look at the collection of garbage from natural spaces as an important way of creating beneficial relationships with wights, and it is something I prefer doing rather than leaving a physical offering.

Because the Treaty 7 First Nations have a much longer history in his territory than my family, some of their basic concepts relating to the land and its beings have crept into my ideas about wights.

Finally, because information about Germanic deities is somewhat limited and distorted, my conception of these deities is heavily influenced by the natural and cultural forces I associate with them. For example, the way in which I perceive and relate to Thor/Donar is heavily influenced by my experience of storms and rain, my conception of Frigga is strongly influenced by my experiences as a parent, etc.
My views are one that speaks to freedom.
-George W. Bush

Yei

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2012
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 593
  • Country: au
  • Total likes: 182
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Mexica Reconstructionism
  • Preferred Pronouns: He/Him/His
Re: Updating To Modern
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2017, 03:13:40 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;203536
So I wrote this post and suddenly got to thinking.

For those people who are dealing with ancient pantheons and their theologies, we often have a bit of a gap to deal with: those powers and ways of relating to the world grew up in a particular time and place, and the assumptions are written in landscapes which many of us don't live in.

And even if we did live in those landscapes, they don't mean the same things anymore.  The Nile doesn't flood anymore.  A world of reliable house heating and nature in need of protection from people rather than vice versa is not the enduring struggle for survival that northern Europe once knew, and so on.

How do people wrestle with these questions?

 
I think the opposite. These religious values give us an opportunity to remember why such things were important in the first place.
Take the Nile. Sure it doesn't flood anymore, but this is a reason to understand why river mechanics are important. With the river damed, farmers have to pay for expensive fertiliser, and this causes social and economic problems. The Nile flooding was what made Egypt Egypt, and it was generally a benefit to the people.
The same can be said of community rituals. Sure, social structures may have changed, but again I would argue that this makes such ceremonies more important. Issues such as social isolation and loneliness are big problems, and they don't stop being problems just because we have fancy gadgets.
I could go on, but I think this is the gist of it.

Allaya

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Location: Out of My Mind
  • *
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: no
  • Total likes: 88
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Idio-syncretic
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/hers
Re: Updating To Modern
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2017, 08:54:10 am »
Quote from: Megatherium;203540
One reason why I stepped back a bit from focusing on reconstruction is that so many of the things I was learning about were just not relevant or practical to my life. I'll try to outline a few of these issues below.

- Communal nature of worship:A lot of religious activities for historical heathen cultures seemed to be directed towards maintaining group identity and bringing benefits to the community as a whole. To some extent this exists for me when I participate in the rituals of the local Heathen community. However, that community is separate from my family who tend to be outright atheists or "spiritual but not religious". The use of religious ritual to strengthen family bonds is absent for me, though I do still find the focus on the family/community to be a useful idea.

- Worship for "Benefits": Historical heathen groups seemed to use religious ritual at least partly as a way to ensure that their crops would grow, the winter would pass, the children would be healthy, etc. In my situation modern technology and science generally ensure that survival is not a concern. For me, worship of the Gods is more about giving thanks for what I already have than trying to prevent calamity.

- Ancestor worship: The physical location of one's ancestors in close proximity to their homes was important for some heathens. Because my ancestors graves are not geographically close, I tend not to focus on their physical remains as a major part of my worship.

In addition, because my grandparents were Christians, I tend to be a bit cautious when making offerings. I think about my grandparents often (because I don't think they have any problem with being remembered), but when I make offerings, I make a point of saying they are for my ancestors in general, so that they are not coerced into being part of a religious ritual they may not be comfortable with.

Offerings to Wights: Historical Heathens seemed to make offerings in order to a) placate beings they had displaced when creating new villages/farms and b) when crossing dangerous "wild" territory. "A" is not particularly relevant for me as I am a city-dweller whose urban space was created before I was born, but "B" is still quite useful for me (though I tend to seek out those types of experiences). In addition, I look at the collection of garbage from natural spaces as an important way of creating beneficial relationships with wights, and it is something I prefer doing rather than leaving a physical offering.

Because the Treaty 7 First Nations have a much longer history in his territory than my family, some of their basic concepts relating to the land and its beings have crept into my ideas about wights.

Finally, because information about Germanic deities is somewhat limited and distorted, my conception of these deities is heavily influenced by the natural and cultural forces I associate with them. For example, the way in which I perceive and relate to Thor/Donar is heavily influenced by my experience of storms and rain, my conception of Frigga is strongly influenced by my experiences as a parent, etc.

 

One category of veneration/association of the Scandic heathen sort that I think a lot of folks miss is the one that I'm not sure how to describe other than:

A person goes out to catch fish.
"Oh, hey wight, didn't see you were on the boat when I pushed off."
"Nah, is cool. I very much like ships and the sea. This is awesome."
"Wow, okay. You want some snuff? I've got extra."
"Fuck yeah."
The person develops a relationship with the ship-wight.


My Norwegian husband describes it as "Hey neighbor!" wight relations. I never seem to hear any sort of mention of this kind of interaction among heathens in general, so maybe it's a Scandic thing that never escaped into the current heathen zeitgeist.

I mention it because it's very much a historical practice that is still super relevant even in this modern age.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

Vixen

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2016
  • Posts: 207
  • Country: nl
  • Total likes: 15
  • We're all mad here
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Pagan
Re: Updating To Modern
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2017, 09:33:49 am »
Quote from: Allaya;203543
One category of veneration/association of the Scandic heathen sort that I think a lot of folks miss is the one that I'm not sure how to describe other than:

A person goes out to catch fish.
"Oh, hey wight, didn't see you were on the boat when I pushed off."
"Nah, is cool. I very much like ships and the sea. This is awesome."
"Wow, okay. You want some snuff? I've got extra."
"Fuck yeah."
The person develops a relationship with the ship-wight.


My Norwegian husband describes it as "Hey neighbor!" wight relations. I never seem to hear any sort of mention of this kind of interaction among heathens in general, so maybe it's a Scandic thing that never escaped into the current heathen zeitgeist.

I mention it because it's very much a historical practice that is still super relevant even in this modern age.


Oh wow... This is exactly how I feel when I communicate with the spritits around my house and such. Nobody ever taught me that, it just developed that way.
You're only given a little spark of madness, you mustn't lose it.

Jainarayan

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2014
  • Posts: 606
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 169
    • View Profile
Re: Updating To Modern
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2017, 10:51:03 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;203536
So I wrote this post and suddenly got to thinking.

For those people who are dealing with ancient pantheons and their theologies, we often have a bit of a gap to deal with: those powers and ways of relating to the world grew up in a particular time and place, and the assumptions are written in landscapes which many of us don't live in.

And even if we did live in those landscapes, they don't mean the same things anymore.  The Nile doesn't flood anymore.  A world of reliable house heating and nature in need of protection from people rather than vice versa is not the enduring struggle for survival that northern Europe once knew, and so on.

How do people wrestle with these questions?

 
I think the gods update themselves also. For example:

  • Saraswati guiding and overseeing electronic and digital information, either on the 'net, Kindle, Nook; music performed and recorded electronically; new philosophical and/or learning and teaching concepts.
  • Bragi inspiring rappers and hip-hop artists (I'll bet he wishes he had another field).
  • A carpenter dedicating and offering his power saw or plunge router to Vishvakarma.
  • Njord protecting tanker and cargo ships and/or astronauts, or overseeing and being patron of any kind of travel.
  • Maybe Vayu, Indra and Parjanya are patrons of meteorologists and guide that profession.
  • Thor protecting, and being the patron of electricians.

And so on.

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5219
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1123
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Re: Updating To Modern
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2017, 10:53:34 am »
Quote from: Allaya;203543
My Norwegian husband describes it as "Hey neighbor!" wight relations. I never seem to hear any sort of mention of this kind of interaction among heathens in general, so maybe it's a Scandic thing that never escaped into the current heathen zeitgeist.

I mention it because it's very much a historical practice that is still super relevant even in this modern age.

 
I think that's one of the things that gets fundamentally lost in the political polarisation within paganisms.  (I'm not talking partisan politics, I'm talking the Authenticists vs. the What Feels Goodists thing that's a perpetual roiling mess.)  The discussion space doesn't have a lot of scope for the actual experience of what the religion is now or would have been.

I think we could use a lot more Hey Neighbor.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Jainarayan

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Oct 2014
  • Posts: 606
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 169
    • View Profile
Re: Updating To Modern
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2017, 11:04:27 am »
Quote from: Megatherium;203540
- Communal nature of worship:A lot of religious activities for historical heathen cultures seemed to be directed towards maintaining group identity and bringing benefits to the community as a whole. To some extent this exists for me when I participate in the rituals of the local Heathen community. However, that community is separate from my family who tend to be outright atheists or "spiritual but not religious". The use of religious ritual to strengthen family bonds is absent for me, though I do still find the focus on the family/community to be a useful idea.

 
That's something I wrestled with and argued with other Heathens about when I practiced Heathenry. In today's world the concept of community is just not the same as it was in e.g. 973 CE. We don't need such tight community bonds to survive. If your chariot or cart breaks, you take it to Sears Automotive or Firestone. But first you call AAA to put it on an even bigger cart to transport it.

I barely know my neighbors on a street of 10 houses. People come and go to and from work, people are rarely around on weekends, not even doing yard work... the landscapers do that. And then of course, we have the 6' high wooden slat or vinyl fences around our properties.

I argued with the point that "the gods don't care about individuals". I still disagree with that. There are too many people who've had experiences that can't be explained by anything other than godly intervention. There are no communities, earldoms, kingdoms that the gods would take interest in today. So whom are they interacting with if not switching their m.o. to individuals?

Everything changes with the the times. I think even the gods do, and have to. Otherwise why worship something that doesn't care about lil ol' me?

ehbowen

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 1396
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 286
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Updating To Modern
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2017, 01:57:21 pm »
Quote from: Jainarayan;203545
I think the gods update themselves also. For example:

  • Saraswati guiding and overseeing electronic and digital information, either on the 'net, Kindle, Nook; music performed and recorded electronically; new philosophical and/or learning and teaching concepts.
  • Bragi inspiring rappers and hip-hop artists (I'll bet he wishes he had another field).
  • A carpenter dedicating and offering his power saw or plunge router to Vishvakarma.
  • Njord protecting tanker and cargo ships and/or astronauts, or overseeing and being patron of any kind of travel.
  • Maybe Vayu, Indra and Parjanya are patrons of meteorologists and guide that profession.
  • Thor protecting, and being the patron of electricians.

And so on.

 
I absolutely agree that my Godhead works hard at staying up-to-date and even ahead. The Scriptures state that he rested for one day...not ten thousand years and counting.

I may have details wrong on this, it's an impression and not a definite communication, but I get a very clear sense that they were watching Jules Verne conceptualizing the design for what became the Nautilus and one of them commented (in so many words), "You know, they could actually build this if they only had a power source." It took about fifteen seconds for someone else to propose, "Let's give them one!"

The impression goes on to strongly imply that if we found the Atomic Age impressive, you should just see what all they have been working on in the fifty years since Star Trek came out....
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5219
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1123
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Re: Updating To Modern
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2017, 02:11:12 pm »
Quote from: Jainarayan;203547
I argued with the point that "the gods don't care about individuals". I still disagree with that.

 
That's always been odd to me, though at least I don't have a toe in the heathen community to have the vehemence there be a personal thing?

I mean, looking at Egypt, since that's my realm of focus and familiarity, we have temple cults in which literally the only theologically qualified officiant is the king!  All of the priesthoods are stepping into the kingly role and such, and all of the artwork is of the king.  So one might come to the reasonable conclusion there that the gods are only interested in royals and the affairs of state.

Except that there's all the rest of the evidence - the stelae covered in ears dedicated "to Amon, who hears all prayers", the record of the person who encountered Hetharu in a dream, the guy who wrote a prayer of thanks to Meretseger for, apparently, kicking his ass.  All of these things that come about because of a culture that wrote things down and thus provided at least a little bit of information about the beliefs and practices of the non-elites.

Cultures can differ a lot, but I am not so sure that humans at root do.  It strikes me as way more likely that the stuff of the elites - whether religious or religion-tinged entertainment - has much more presence in the historical and artifact record than the ordinary people, because it always does.  (I'm given to understand that this is true in the modern day as well, with Hinduism - that the stuff that's known outside of India is primarily the practices and theologies of the more educated.  Is that accurate, since this is more your field of knowledge?)  And the elites have a vested interest in portraying themselves as more in possession of divine presence than the peasantry, though which axis 'elite' and 'peasantry' is defined on varies.  (Consider aggressive evangelical Christianity for an example of different elites than those based on social class.  That's taken elite status and divine favour to a particular height of tautological accomplishment.)

So in the case of stories that were almost certainly harvested from the Christianised elites, all about how the gods are particular concerned with the elites and their doings, that's very human.  I mean, Snorri was a chieftain and heavily involved in political stuff, of course he's going to reproduce things that speak to his own viewpoint and experience best.

But the personal experiences of J. Average Thorson are lost, just like the majority of the people who don't write things down over the course of history.  I'm lucky that, working in Egypt, I can point at the one or two counterexamples of "actually, here's a god appearing in a dream to someone other than the king" or "actually, this testimonial suggests that this workman got the personal attention of a god" that have survived.  My guess, people being people, is that that sort of thing happens, has always happened, always will happen, and trying to contain the gods to the realm of the elites is, well.  A fine thing if you wanna be an elite.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Allaya

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Location: Out of My Mind
  • *
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: no
  • Total likes: 88
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Idio-syncretic
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/hers
Re: Updating To Modern
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2017, 02:13:14 pm »
Quote from: Vixen;203544
Oh wow... This is exactly how I feel when I communicate with the spritits around my house and such. Nobody ever taught me that, it just developed that way.

 
Hurrah! I'm glad you've got that kind of relationship with them! I'm cheered that there's at least someone else who's discovered the joys of "Hey Neighbor!".
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

sevensons

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Feb 2017
  • Posts: 478
  • Country: gb
  • Total likes: 29
    • View Profile
Re: Updating To Modern
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2017, 05:13:41 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;203548
I absolutely agree that my Godhead works hard at staying up-to-date and even ahead. The Scriptures state that he rested for one day...not ten thousand years and counting.

I may have details wrong on this, it's an impression and not a definite communication, but I get a very clear sense that they were watching Jules Verne conceptualizing the design for what became the Nautilus and one of them commented (in so many words), "You know, they could actually build this if they only had a power source." It took about fifteen seconds for someone else to propose, "Let's give them one!"

The impression goes on to strongly imply that if we found the Atomic Age impressive, you should just see what all they have been working on in the fifty years since Star Trek came out....

 
I am sure the gods or the force is observant of all and had a painstaking plan very early in life. I refrain from going to deep in my thoughts they are to imaginative.
Awaken myself alive and well loving to start learning today ahead a challenge set by the Gods. Haven't

Instagram stevejomac

ehbowen

  • Grand Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Houston, Texas
  • Posts: 1396
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 286
  • A Ways Around the Bend...
    • View Profile
    • Streamliner Schedules
  • Religion: Southern Baptist
Re: Updating To Modern
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2017, 06:32:32 pm »
Quote from: sevensons;203551
I am sure the gods or the force is observant of all and had a painstaking plan very early in life. I refrain from going to deep in my thoughts they are to imaginative.
Me, if I'm wrong I want to be spectacularly wrong....

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk
--------Eric H. Bowen
Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

Megatherium

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • *
  • Posts: 303
  • Country: ca
  • Total likes: 68
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Heathen(ish)
  • Preferred Pronouns: he/him/his
Re: Updating To Modern
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2017, 07:36:34 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;203549
...My guess, people being people, is that that sort of thing happens, has always happened, always will happen, and trying to contain the gods to the realm of the elites is, well.  A fine thing if you wanna be an elite.

 
Quote from: Jainarayan;203547
I argued with the point that "the gods don't care about individuals". I still disagree with that...


I’ve also found the “Gods don’t care about individuals” cliché to be a bit frustrating. I do think there is a good kernel of useful advice behind it, however, and that this particular concept did develop as a reaction against some ideas that were getting brought into Heathenry unconsciously. For example I would agree that;

•   Your ancestors and house/local wights are more likely to be concerned with your well-being (developed because many new Heathens were focused on Gods to an extent that prevented the effective construction of those relationships)
•   Gods don’t owe you a close relationship and may not be responsive to efforts to establish one (developed because the “personal” relationship with Christ that characterize some branches of Christianity was unconsciously assumed to be a model for approaching Germanic deities)
•   Creating relationships with the Gods as a community is a good thing (developed because many Heathens practiced alone and may have underestimated the importance of the community in historical heathen traditions)


However, it looks like what happened is that very reasonable ideas became wildly overstated, at least in English-language internet Heathenry, and became (rather arbitrary) dividing lines for people who wished to create boundaries between themselves and others with whom they disagreed with for aesthetic or social reasons.

For example, “hey, we shouldn’t neglect our ancestors and local wights” became THERE IS NO REASON FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO INTERACT WITH THE GODS EVER AND IF YOU DO, YOU ARE A BIG WICCATRU LOSER FACE. I suspect this had very little to do with actually understanding and applying Heathen religious ideas, and much more to do with integrating oneself with the Heathen internet equivalent of the high school varsity football team.


This concept is positively dripping with logical contradictions. In addition to Darkhawk’s excellent point about elite control of religious traditions;

•   There are issues with community size (why is interacting with the Gods inappropriate for individuals when many kindreds are formed of a small number of people anyway?)
•   The lack of “important” people for the Gods to actually deal with, (if the Gods only interact with Kings, etc. and given the non-existence of truly powerful Heathens, who exactly is occupying the Gods attention and preventing them from dealing with normal people? Are there some secret Heathen billionaires I’m not aware of?)
•   The curious assertion that the Gods are “too busy” (if they were not “too busy” for hundreds of thousands of people in the past, why does the attention of tens of thousands of people in the present vex them so?)
•   The wildly inconsistent approaches to source material (The Icelandic Sagas are Christianized bullshit, unless I want to make fun of you for worshipping Odin because he is too much of a violent badass to pay attention to you anyway because he is recruiting for Ragnarok which I don’t believe in)

Overall, I think this particular trope has outgrown any utility it may have had. It might just be easier to say develop your household cult, value your religious community, and the Gods are not vending machines. We don’t need to excise any thought of individual religious life to accomplish that.

 
Quote from: Allaya;203543
One category of veneration/association of the Scandic heathen sort that I think a lot of folks miss is ....


There are elements of this that remind my of both house wights and wights associated with wild areas- there is an element of recognizing one's neighbours there too. Though I don't have a lot of ships in my area, I wonder if there might be something like a car wight...
My views are one that speaks to freedom.
-George W. Bush

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
6 Replies
6128 Views
Last post July 24, 2014, 03:45:08 pm
by Darkhawk
66 Replies
17111 Views
Last post July 26, 2011, 04:18:58 pm
by DashesAgainst
30 Replies
10298 Views
Last post July 11, 2011, 04:27:59 pm
by Devo
30 Replies
13440 Views
Last post May 18, 2016, 07:35:56 pm
by the_raven
0 Replies
11557 Views
Last post August 08, 2011, 02:57:06 pm
by RandallS

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 180
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal