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Author Topic: A Few Questions  (Read 1942 times)

minus

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A Few Questions
« on: February 18, 2017, 07:27:05 pm »
So, I've been a member on here for a couple of months and I'm really feeling like I should pursue the celtic pathway.

I just had a few questions regarding this.

1: I've read quite a few of the myths and while they are enjoyable stories I can't find myself actually believing them to be true.

2: In terms of the actual gods, I believe, one or maybe many gods exist however i also believe that its practically impossible to know their real names and the one they have are just human creations.

What resonates with me regarding the celtic pathway is it is completely compatible with my views on the after life that i explained in a previous post and my ancestry is mostly celtic.

Its because of the things above. I'm finding it hard to truly commit. IS there a way to follow the celtic path without having to believe every single thing written about it?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2017, 07:27:57 pm by minus »

Sorcha

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Re: A Few Questions
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2017, 07:51:08 pm »
Quote from: minus;202839
So, I've been a member on here for a couple of months and I'm really feeling like I should pursue the celtic pathway.

I just had a few questions regarding this.

1: I've read quite a few of the myths and while they are enjoyable stories I can't find myself actually believing them to be true.

2: In terms of the actual gods, I believe, one or maybe many gods exist however i also believe that its practically impossible to know their real names and the one they have are just human creations.

What resonates with me regarding the celtic pathway is it is completely compatible with my views on the after life that i explained in a previous post and my ancestry is mostly celtic.

Its because of the things above. I'm finding it hard to truly commit. IS there a way to follow the celtic path without having to believe every single thing written about it?

 
I look at it this way: a thing doesn't have to be *factual* to be *true*. Fables are true in that they tell you a thing about how the world works: the tortoise and the hare is true because slow and steady DOES work out better than sprints interspersed with long naps; it's simply more efficient. That doesn't mean it's factual in that the tortoise and the hare actually had a race with flaggers and a start and finish lines.

In the same way, a story about a child stirring Cerridwen's cauldron of wisdom for a year and then tasting of it and becoming the wisest bard ever has definite truths in it; that doesn't mean you have to believe there was actually a child and a cauldron and three drops of liquid, etc.

I think the hard thing to separate is gaining truths from stories and falling into literalism, which is where Christianity ends up in trouble.

That doesn't mean you can't believe that the things in the stories happened. But you certainly don't have to believe they did in every detail. I don't. And I do follow a Celtic path (or one of many; "Celtic" is a little broad and can mean a lot of different things).


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sevensons

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Re: A Few Questions
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2017, 08:43:58 pm »
Quote from: minus;202839
So, I've been a member on here for a couple of months and I'm really feeling like I should pursue the celtic pathway.

I just had a few questions regarding this.

1: I've read quite a few of the myths and while they are enjoyable stories I can't find myself actually believing them to be true.

2: In terms of the actual gods, I believe, one or maybe many gods exist however i also believe that its practically impossible to know their real names and the one they have are just human creations.

What resonates with me regarding the celtic pathway is it is completely compatible with my views on the after life that i explained in a previous post and my ancestry is mostly celtic.

Its because of the things above. I'm finding it hard to truly commit. IS there a way to follow the celtic path without having to believe every single thing written about it?

 
I give them a bit of thought the names some are vile names but most are a message.
Awaken myself alive and well loving to start learning today ahead a challenge set by the Gods. Haven't

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Sorcha

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Re: A Few Questions
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2017, 08:47:02 pm »
Quote from: sevensons;202843
I give them a bit of thought the names some are vile names but most are a message.

 
Which Celtic gods have vile names? Vile is an extremely strong word; you're gonna need to explain that.


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ehbowen

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Re: A Few Questions
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2017, 09:42:38 pm »
Quote from: minus;202839
2: ...i also believe that its practically impossible to know their real names and the one they have are just human creations.

 
Is that necessarily a bad thing? I believe that I have an ongoing [long-distance!] spiritual relationship with a biblical Goddess and three very Christian angels. I have names for all four of them. Are these the legal names they were born (or created?) with? Probably not; none of those names would evoke even a raised eyebrow were they used in casual conversation anywhere within the English-speaking world. Even so, I believe that they answer to them and that they would want me to use those names were they physically present in the room with me.

My mother had her name legally changed when she was past sixty. Is it not beyond the realm of possibility that a deity would want, or at least be open, to do the same?
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Sorcha

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Re: A Few Questions
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2017, 09:58:08 pm »
Quote from: ehbowen;202852
Is that necessarily a bad thing? I believe that I have an ongoing [long-distance!] spiritual relationship with a biblical Goddess and three very Christian angels. I have names for all four of them. Are these the legal names they were born (or created?) with? Probably not; none of those names would evoke even a raised eyebrow were they used in casual conversation anywhere within the English-speaking world. Even so, I believe that they answer to them and that they would want me to use those names were they physically present in the room with me.

My mother had her name legally changed when she was past sixty. Is it not beyond the realm of possibility that a deity would want, or at least be open, to do the same?

 
I was thinking the exact same thing, but you put it into words better than I would have. Humans have a need to name things; it's how we interact with the world, and names are often associated with power or magic or deep meaning. In a sense, you could look at it as us naming the gods as a way to interact with them and describe our experience with them. I think they accept that, whether that's the name they came stamped with hot off the assembly line as an inherent part of themselves or not.

"Brigid" is a lot more convenient than "many-faceted and somewhat shadowy female-presenting deity who seems to show up when I'm near bodies of water and has a fondness for fire and beer-brewing".


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sevensons

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Re: A Few Questions
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2017, 10:06:02 pm »
Quote from: Sorcha;202844
Which Celtic gods have vile names? Vile is an extremely strong word; you're gonna need to explain that.


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Macha looked at the name right its like laughing at madness. Cailleach  I don't like any name with ill in it I tend to avoid at all costs. Agrona is a bad spell. there are a few more that I don't want to explain. perhaps its just how my mind works I know and have studied names the hidden meanings behind them. I decipher myself they can have many meaning but usually there is an attack or defence in all names. if you do the maths as well you can find some hidden messages.
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Sorcha

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Re: A Few Questions
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2017, 10:45:15 pm »
Quote from: sevensons;202855
Macha looked at the name right its like laughing at madness. Cailleach  I don't like any name with ill in it I tend to avoid at all costs. Agrona is a bad spell. there are a few more that I don't want to explain. perhaps its just how my mind works I know and have studied names the hidden meanings behind them. I decipher myself they can have many meaning but usually there is an attack or defence in all names. if you do the maths as well you can find some hidden messages.

 
Ok, for one, you're superimposing your modern English-speaker impressions on ancient names from various Celtic languages. For another, those impressions don't make those names vile. They make them sound vile to you based on your own personal subjective impressions, which might mean that in your own personal practice, they don't work. That's fine; just don't make the error of turning personal impressions ("they seem to me") into objective fact ("they are").

Macha's name is derived from a word meaning "a plain [geographic feature]" and has nothing to do with mocking laughter.

The Cailleach's name means "old woman" and has nothing to do with illness. It comes from a word meaning "veiled one" (Caillech).

When dealing with words in other languages,  or even in English, one must always be careful not to make up false etymologies and then asserting they hold actual linguistic meaning. It's like insisting that the Super Bowl is sacred to the goddess Athena because you can adjust the spacing to make it read "Superb Owl".

Speaking of false etymologies, Agrona is a neo-pagan deity based on a dubious 1926 reconstruction of a river name into hypothetical proto-Celtic in order to claim Talieasin's poems took place in Scotland. The only possible vileness I see going on there is some linguistic shoe-horning.


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Jack

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Re: A Few Questions
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2017, 12:22:25 am »
Quote from: Sorcha;202857
It's like insisting that the Super Bowl is sacred to the goddess Athena because you can adjust the spacing to make it read "Superb Owl".

 
Alas, it's just another stolen pagan festival turned capitalist, like Christmas.
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Sorcha

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Re: A Few Questions
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2017, 12:26:48 am »
Quote from: Jack;202866
Alas, it's just another stolen pagan festival turned capitalist, like Christmas.

 
The etymology is there, man. You can't fight the etymology.


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SunflowerP

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Re: A Few Questions
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2017, 06:11:43 am »
Quote from: minus;202839
IS there a way to follow the celtic path without having to believe every single thing written about it?

 
Certainly. The myths of the Celtic peoples (or for that matter, the Germanic peoples, the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians, etc, etc, etc) are not sacred scripture, and Celtic polytheism does not require scriptural literalism about them. The various cultural polytheisms are, generally, much more focused on practice, and don't have much in the way of required belief.

(Side note: 'Celtic' is a broad term, so I don't know exactly which myths it is that you're having trouble with. Irish myths - and deities - are not Welsh myths and deities, though occasionally there's a bit of overlap or names that are cognate... and that's just the two that have the, AFAIK, largest and most cohesive bodies of surviving myth. What I said above applies in any case, though.)

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Re: A Few Questions
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2017, 06:15:58 am »
Quote from: minus;202839
Its because of the things above. I'm finding it hard to truly commit. IS there a way to follow the celtic path without having to believe every single thing written about it?

 
I don't lean Celt-aways but it's quite common to believe that the survivng mythology may be misinterpreted, Christianized, badly-written, or contradictory to other examples of itself. Norse mythology includes a cow licking the breadfirst giant out of the ice. Maybe she's a metaphorical cow. If the myths make more sense to you are metaphors, you wouldn't be the only one.

As for the names. Well, considering we have gods who are basically named "Lord" and "Lady", I think believing the name we have for the gods is not their true name but one used as much for our benefit as theirs seems entirely sensible too.

It's entirely possible to explore and work with a pantheon without taking it on uncritically, and honestly, I think that's a healthier approach for building a long term relationship with deities. You may later decide that some myths seem more resonant with you than others, or find ways of looking at them that make more sense to you. Maybe you won't, that's also okay.
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Re: A Few Questions
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2017, 06:40:55 am »
Quote from: Sorcha;202840
I look at it this way: a thing doesn't have to be *factual* to be *true*. Fables are true in that they tell you a thing about how the world works: the tortoise and the hare is true because slow and steady DOES work out better than sprints interspersed with long naps; it's simply more efficient. That doesn't mean it's factual in that the tortoise and the hare actually had a race with flaggers and a start and finish lines.


Conversely, a thing doesn't have to be false to be the stuff of myth. It is entirely appropriate to refer to Apollo 11 as a "mythic journey"...even though it was as real as a slap in the face (speaking as one who is old enough to personally remember watching Neil Armstrong setting foot on the Moon via TV).
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Computers are like air conditioning. They become useless when you open Windows—Linus Torvalds.

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Re: A Few Questions
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2017, 11:23:17 am »
Quote from: ehbowen;203233
Conversely, a thing doesn't have to be false to be the stuff of myth. It is entirely appropriate to refer to Apollo 11 as a "mythic journey"...even though it was as real as a slap in the face (speaking as one who is old enough to personally remember watching Neil Armstrong setting foot on the Moon via TV).

 
Yes. Relevant to both what you said, Eric, and to what Sorcha said, there's this post (and the thread as a whole, but I'm linking Catja's long interesting post because it clarifies the connotations 'myth' generally has here on TC). Hopefully that will be useful to the OP, Minus, as well.

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Re: A Few Questions
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2017, 01:23:32 am »
Quote from: SunflowerP;203268
Yes. Relevant to both what you said, Eric, and to what Sorcha said, there's this post (and the thread as a whole, but I'm linking Catja's long interesting post because it clarifies the connotations 'myth' generally has here on TC). Hopefully that will be useful to the OP, Minus, as well.

Sunflower


Referring back to the Apollo program, we see a little bit about how myths develop from true stories. The Apollo 13 movie, released just 25 years after the mission itself and made with input from many of the principals, includes several scenes which were "enhanced", such as Marilyn Lovell losing her wedding ring in the shower (she did in fact lose it, but it was promptly retrieved from the drain by the motel maintenance man), or in fact made up out of whole cloth, such as when the astronauts in the stricken spacecraft come to verbal blows (they were in fact consummate professionals focused intently on the tasks needed to safely return home).

These alterations were made for dramatic effect, and while the surviving principals stated that they were not "true", they did not strenuously object to their inclusion in the story, either. Quite probably it was because events could, conceivably, have turned that way or because, while it did not reflect in their very professional outward actions, it did reflect tension and emotions circulating "beneath the surface."

And that's one way that a mythos begins to develop...in just 25 short years.
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Where's the KABOOM? There was supposed to have been an Earth-shattering KABOOM!
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