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  1. #41
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    Re: Beginning worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Something View Post
    There is no fire in hel that was 1 of the many perversions by Christianity, secondly as long as you used some forms of protection in your ritual then you should only be attracting entities with positive influences in mind, if you have come as far as inviting deities into your life then you will have already done much research and reading.. and if you have come this far then chances are your path is already chosen for you, otherworldly beings cannot interfere with mortals unless invited...


    Quote Originally Posted by ehbowen View Post
    This seems to be an extremely blanket statement. What assurances do you have that it is true in all cases?
    Not even touching on the hell/hel subject. That's a debate for another thread. But I'm gonna have to agree with Eric on it being a blanket statement. What about demonic possessions (assuming you believe in them)? What about all the deities and "otherworldly beings" who come into our lives unwanted until we either relent and let them in or tell them to fuck off? I disagree that we just "invite" them into our lives, even unknowingly.
    Last edited by missgraceless; 19 Apr 2017 at 05:04 PM. Reason: Sent too early.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Beginning worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Something View Post
    A Reminder:
    Hi Something,

    We don't mind long posts here, but to avoid having a hard-to-read wall-o'-text, hitting "enter" twice every few lines adds some white space and makes it easier to follow - I've edited yours to add those breaks, but it's a really good habit to get into yourself.

    They don't have to be the "proper" place for paragraph breaks (we're interested in readability more than technicalities), or a complete change of thought - some thoughts take a lot of lines and need to be broken up into sub-thoughts - as long as they're there.

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  3. #43
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    Re: Beginning worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by ehbowen View Post
    So do you call Jesus a liar? Or do you call Matthew a liar? Or whom do you credit/blame for including this concept (which is found in several other passages in the New Testament, by the way)? What assurances do you have that your source of information is more reliable than theirs?
    "Hell", linguistically speaking, is of course derived from the Norse mythologies, and thus anyone who is talking about Norse mythology has to dig through all of the interpolation from an unrelated religious system that happened to steal their word for such concepts as Gehenna, the cursed valley outside of Jerusalem (I want to say where trash was burned, but that may be my brain interpolating from something else).

    The word actually used in original Biblical texts is "Gehenna" - seven times in Matthew, thrice in Mark, once in Luke, once in James. The usage of "hell" is a modernism, an act of translation, which I imagine a number of heathens rightly find rather annoying, since it's using their mythological terminology for something that neither refers to the original Gehenna nor the Norse Hel. (As the modern concept of hell has more roots in the literary works of John Milton than in the Bible itself.)
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  4. #44
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    Re: Beginning worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkhawk View Post
    "Hell", linguistically speaking, is of course derived from the Norse mythologies, and thus anyone who is talking about Norse mythology has to dig through all of the interpolation from an unrelated religious system that happened to steal their word for such concepts as Gehenna, the cursed valley outside of Jerusalem (I want to say where trash was burned, but that may be my brain interpolating from something else).

    The word actually used in original Biblical texts is "Gehenna" - seven times in Matthew, thrice in Mark, once in Luke, once in James. The usage of "hell" is a modernism, an act of translation, which I imagine a number of heathens rightly find rather annoying, since it's using their mythological terminology for something that neither refers to the original Gehenna nor the Norse Hel. (As the modern concept of hell has more roots in the literary works of John Milton than in the Bible itself.)
    I will grant your argument that the word itself was appropriated, or perhaps misappropriated, from another culture and another religious system. I suppose that's perhaps the first and only time that has happened in the English language, although I could be mistaken...

    With that linguistic fact granted, though, how does it affect the larger contention which I believe that Jesus was teaching that there is in fact accountability and judgment after death, and that a consequence to beware of is fire?
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  5. #45
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    Re: Beginning worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by ehbowen View Post
    With that linguistic fact granted, though, how does it affect the larger contention which I believe that Jesus was teaching that there is in fact accountability and judgment after death, and that a consequence to beware of is fire?
    It's a feature of several mythologies I'm aware of, yes, including yours.
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  6. #46
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    Re: Beginning worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkhawk View Post
    "Hell", linguistically speaking, is of course derived from the Norse mythologies, and thus anyone who is talking about Norse mythology has to dig through all of the interpolation from an unrelated religious system that happened to steal their word for such concepts as Gehenna, the cursed valley outside of Jerusalem (I want to say where trash was burned, but that may be my brain interpolating from something else).

    The word actually used in original Biblical texts is "Gehenna" - seven times in Matthew, thrice in Mark, once in Luke, once in James. The usage of "hell" is a modernism, an act of translation, which I imagine a number of heathens rightly find rather annoying, since it's using their mythological terminology for something that neither refers to the original Gehenna nor the Norse Hel. (As the modern concept of hell has more roots in the literary works of John Milton than in the Bible itself.)
    I agree with fact that the amount of symbols, deity concepts and stories that were taken by Christianity from the norse and used for the sole purpose of making people believe what they wanted really annoys me, if it wasn't bad enough that they started burning and hanging those who refused to convert they then don't even take the time to create their own stories and symbols simply stealing them from the norse just adds insult to injury in my opinion.. If Christianity had been introduced as simply a new concept with their own stories and concepts and in a loving freely way then I would at least have some respect for it.. sadly this wasn't the case.. But I should add that this is my opinion on the religion and not those who worship it..

  7. #47
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    Re: Beginning worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Something View Post
    I agree with fact that the amount of symbols, deity concepts and stories that were taken by Christianity from the norse and used for the sole purpose of making people believe what they wanted really annoys me, if it wasn't bad enough that they started burning and hanging those who refused to convert they then don't even take the time to create their own stories and symbols simply stealing them from the norse just adds insult to injury in my opinion.. If Christianity had been introduced as simply a new concept with their own stories and concepts and in a loving freely way then I would at least have some respect for it.. sadly this wasn't the case.. But I should add that this is my opinion on the religion and not those who worship it..
    Assimilating the symbols of the culture you teach, in order to make the concepts taught understandable, is not stealing. It is sound teaching method, regardless of subject.

    The Greek term that was translated, many centuries later, as 'hell' is 'kolasis', which means 'punishment'. It is a state, not a place. Early eschatology was quite sophisticated, but much of it was swamped by local ignorance and superstition during the Dark Ages.

    Early Christian understanding of hell: http://www.antiochian.org/node/18270
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  8. #48
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    Re: Beginning worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chatelaine View Post
    Assimilating the symbols of the culture you teach, in order to make the concepts taught understandable, is not stealing. It is sound teaching method, regardless of subject.

    The Greek term that was translated, many centuries later, as 'hell' is 'kolasis', which means 'punishment'. It is a state, not a place. Early eschatology was quite sophisticated, but much of it was swamped by local ignorance and superstition during the Dark Ages.

    Early Christian understanding of hell: http://www.antiochian.org/node/18270
    Taking something that doesn't belong to you is stealing plain and simple if you choose to believe that it's okay to use it for teaching that's another matter.. And it was not just the norse that had things taken but also Greeks and others.. In my opinion no religion that uses fear tactics and violence to force it's teaching upon others deserves honouring. The persecution of pagans at the hands of Christians is historic fact and not up for debate sadly, like claiming world war 2 never happened.. Even still I would never treat a person different because of their religion because that would make me just as guilty. Imagine how long it would take for a new religion that started claiming all who follow this jesus guy are actually devil worshippers and are all going to punished for eternity would last? Yet there are still those who think that what Christians did was perfectly okay... Deeply sad in my opinion

  9. #49
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    Re: Beginning worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Something View Post
    Taking something that doesn't belong to you is stealing plain and simple
    Last I checked, time and nature didn't belong to anyone, nor was there any copyright on symbols.

    Quote Originally Posted by Something View Post
    if you choose to believe that it's okay to use it for teaching that's another matter..
    Effective teaching needs to be tailored to the culture it addresses. Try explaining black pudding to someone who has never even heard of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Something View Post
    And it was not just the norse that had things taken but also Greeks and others..
    Nothing was 'taken'. Repurposed, sure. But it's not even cultural appropriation when it takes place within your own culture. Or do you think that Greeks were converted by some kind of foreigners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Something View Post
    The persecution of pagans at the hands of Christians is historic fact and not up for debate sadly, like claiming world war 2 never happened..
    As is the persecution of Christians at the hands of pagans (and Christians at the hands of other Christians, and pagans at the hands of other pagans, but let's not broaden this too much).

    Quote Originally Posted by Something View Post
    Imagine how long it would take for a new religion that started claiming all who follow this jesus guy are actually devil worshippers and are all going to punished for eternity would last?
    Islam has been going on for 14 centuries and counting.
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  10. #50
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    Re: Beginning worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chatelaine View Post
    Islam has been going on for 14 centuries and counting.
    And is far from being a religion that claims "all who follow this jesus guy are actually devil worshippers", so I don't know why you would suggest it in response to that claim.
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