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Author Topic: A Conversation about Hitler and Shame  (Read 3907 times)

Froði Ingsson

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A Conversation about Hitler and Shame
« on: February 04, 2017, 11:39:12 am »
I've started writing a fantasy series and one of the dialogs brought up something I was wondering what other people thought about.

The speaker in this part of the dialog is someone teaching how to grow and become stronger from their past by owning up to their choices, even if that means breaking an oath like Tyr with Fenrir. Sometimes we have to do shitty things because it's the right thing to do.


Here's part of the dialog:

"Many look back at Hitler's reign and see an abomination –
and rightly so –
but they fail to acknowledge how powerful Germans are,
even so far back as the Roman days and beyond.

And while many of us bear the weight of our ancestors,
we are not imprisoned by their actions.

We've consciously learned from the past:
we've grown and moved on."  
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What do you think about this passage?

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As for me, I was born in Germany to an American father and German mother. I came to the United States before my first year and never knew my mom or Homeland. So I have this buffer, for no better word, from my German roots. I never felt like I was in Hitler's wake – heck – I didn't even know I was German until later in my youth.

As I connect with my roots I feel somewhat responsible, in that, I recognize that part of humanity within us all. And instead of wearing it like a shameful necklace, I'm seeking to learn and grow from it. I can't change the fact that it happened, but I sure as hell can consciously choose to never repeat it.

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Re: A Conversation about Hitler and Shame
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2017, 06:54:55 am »
Quote from: Froði Ingsson;202316
"Many look back at Hitler's reign and see an abomination –
and rightly so –
but they fail to acknowledge how powerful Germans are,
even so far back as the Roman days and beyond.


I believe you may want to consider rewording this a bit. As written, it implies that people who see Hitler's reign as an abomination ALWAYS fail to "acknowledge how powerful Germans are" (which strikes me as highly unlikely) and this reading then implies that all who do not think of Hitler's reign as an abomination do "acknowledge how powerful Germans are".
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Sorcha

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Re: A Conversation about Hitler and Shame
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2017, 12:48:37 am »
Quote from: Froði Ingsson;202316
I've started writing a fantasy series and one of the dialogs brought up something I was wondering what other people thought about.

The speaker in this part of the dialog is someone teaching how to grow and become stronger from their past by owning up to their choices, even if that means breaking an oath like Tyr with Fenrir. Sometimes we have to do shitty things because it's the right thing to do.


Here's part of the dialog:

"Many look back at Hitler's reign and see an abomination –
and rightly so –
but they fail to acknowledge how powerful Germans are,
even so far back as the Roman days and beyond.

And while many of us bear the weight of our ancestors,
we are not imprisoned by their actions.


I think it feels like a non sequiter. (I'm an editor/proofreader, so this is my area; bear with me.)

If what you're trying to get across is that "sometimes we have to do shitty things because it's the right thing to do", "Hitler" is probably not where you want to go at that moment. It's a weird juxtaposition that makes it sound like Hitler did necessary, if shitty, stuff. Which, if you want your story to be read and received by anybody other than neo-Nazis, probably isn't the impression you want to give.

I think what you're going for (correct me if I'm wrong) is that people get hung up on Hitler. Modern Germans end up feeling unnecessary guilt for something they had no part in, while non-Germans have trouble looking past Hitler to see the rest of the history of the Germanic peoples. So instead of taking the lessons from that period and moving ahead, they end up getting stuck there. Which is a valid point. I think you just want to be sure you make it VERY clear.

On a purely editorial note, "as far back as the Romans and beyond" is rather throwaway and kind of cliched. I'd actually expound on that, which would make your point stronger. In other words, "People get hung up on Hitler--a truly horrific era in German history--but fail to remember the long history of the Germanic peoples prior to that, including X event and Y person and Z cultural contribution" or something.

That way, instead of just being like "actually the Germans have awesome history", you SHOW the history. That's what people mean, in part, by "show, don't tell".


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Froði Ingsson

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Re: A Conversation about Hitler and Shame
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2017, 01:32:45 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;202371
I believe you may want to consider rewording this a bit. As written, it implies that people who see Hitler's reign as an abomination ALWAYS fail to "acknowledge how powerful Germans are" (which strikes me as highly unlikely) and this reading then implies that all who do not think of Hitler's reign as an abomination do "acknowledge how powerful Germans are".

 
Thanks RandallS. I agree, highly unlikely. I really appreciate that insight. I was not wanting to imply either of those things.

Froði Ingsson

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Re: A Conversation about Hitler and Shame
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2017, 02:14:22 pm »
Quote from: Sorcha;202412
I think it feels like a non sequiter. (I'm an editor/proofreader, so this is my area; bear with me.)

If what you're trying to get across is that "sometimes we have to do shitty things because it's the right thing to do", "Hitler" is probably not where you want to go at that moment. It's a weird juxtaposition that makes it sound like Hitler did necessary, if shitty, stuff. Which, if you want your story to be read and received by anybody other than neo-Nazis, probably isn't the impression you want to give.

I think what you're going for (correct me if I'm wrong) is that people get hung up on Hitler. Modern Germans end up feeling unnecessary guilt for something they had no part in, while non-Germans have trouble looking past Hitler to see the rest of the history of the Germanic peoples. So instead of taking the lessons from that period and moving ahead, they end up getting stuck there. Which is a valid point. I think you just want to be sure you make it VERY clear.

On a purely editorial note, "as far back as the Romans and beyond" is rather throwaway and kind of cliched. I'd actually expound on that, which would make your point stronger. In other words, "People get hung up on Hitler--a truly horrific era in German history--but fail to remember the long history of the Germanic peoples prior to that, including X event and Y person and Z cultural contribution" or something.

That way, instead of just being like "actually the Germans have awesome history", you SHOW the history. That's what people mean, in part, by "show, don't tell".

 
Thanks Sorcha.

I get the non sequitur feeling, that initial part describing the speaker and the "shitty things" statement is not part of the book itself. So the dialog does not in fact follow from that. There's a large build up to that point in the conversation and the speaker is a character whose been brought up in the folkish side of Heathenry. This conversation is part of his struggle to come to terms with his open/universal beliefs. And while some of the racist and metagenetic Heathens will make an appearance in the series, they are not, by any means, a major theme of the series.  

As to your statement regarding what I was "going for", that's where this dialog will ultimately lead. At this stage in my writing I have a few conversations I want to include, a bunch of insights arising from my Rune Yoga work, personal rituals, and Heathen studies, the story board, and a good many chapter ideas and themes to play with.  

Regarding the last two paragraph in your response, thank you so much. I really appreciate those helpful suggestions. That's the kind of stuff I'm wanting to incorporate in my story. Real history. Something I'm just starting to learn about.

Thanks again. Have an awesome day.

Sorcha

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Re: A Conversation about Hitler and Shame
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2017, 04:22:48 pm »
Quote from: Froði Ingsson;202440
Thanks Sorcha.

I get the non sequitur feeling, that initial part describing the speaker and the "shitty things" statement is not part of the book itself. So the dialog does not in fact follow from that. There's a large build up to that point in the conversation and the speaker is a character whose been brought up in the folkish side of Heathenry. This conversation is part of his struggle to come to terms with his open/universal beliefs. And while some of the racist and metagenetic Heathens will make an appearance in the series, they are not, by any means, a major theme of the series.  

As to your statement regarding what I was "going for", that's where this dialog will ultimately lead. At this stage in my writing I have a few conversations I want to include, a bunch of insights arising from my Rune Yoga work, personal rituals, and Heathen studies, the story board, and a good many chapter ideas and themes to play with.  

Regarding the last two paragraph in your response, thank you so much. I really appreciate those helpful suggestions. That's the kind of stuff I'm wanting to incorporate in my story. Real history. Something I'm just starting to learn about.

Thanks again. Have an awesome day.

 
You too! I'm sure as the story takes shape it'll become clearer. It's often better to get the story down on paper and then go back and rework things.


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Froði Ingsson

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Re: A Conversation about Hitler and Shame
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2017, 10:09:15 am »
Quote from: Sorcha;202445
You too! I'm sure as the story takes shape it'll become clearer. It's often better to get the story down on paper and then go back and rework things.

 
I really appreciate your time and clarity. Both you and RandallS have given me the opportunity to see the difference between my self-expression and what others perceive. It was enlightening to say the least.

Obviously I need to spend more time and conscious energy towards cultivating clarity. Which is awesome because I'm touching in with Dagaz right now.

I love the Runes.

Anyhoot,
Thanks again.

May something Wyrd-ly awesome come your way...

Hildeburh

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Re: A Conversation about Hitler and Shame
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2017, 06:53:49 am »
Quote from: Froði Ingsson;202316
even if that means breaking an oath like Tyr with Fenrir. Sometimes we have to do shitty things because it's the right thing to do..


Oath taking was a serious business in pre Christian heathen societies, these societies were based on honour. Oathbreaking could lead to swift a brutal punishment, including lesser outlawry.

The thing about using our gods as rational for human actions is that they are gods so they exist outside human moral norms and the moral codes of the day.

People certainly do shitty things but how is that related to oaths or even honour? The Nazi's considered themselves honourable and the rightful decendents of the Germanic tribes, and yet they got a thorough whipping in two world wars.

From a heathen perspective we do bear the weight of our ancestors, the pre Christian Germanic worldview was that you could recieve good luck or bad luck from your ancestors.

Your dialog just seems a tad confused to me.

Froði Ingsson

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Re: A Conversation about Hitler and Shame
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2017, 12:15:04 pm »
Quote from: Hildeburh;202641
Oath taking was a serious business in pre Christian heathen societies, these societies were based on honour. Oathbreaking could lead to swift a brutal punishment, including lesser outlawry.

People certainly do shitty things but how is that related to oaths or even honour?

Your dialog just seems a tad confused to me.

 
I agree, oaths were and are a serious business. As to  your question about the relationship between shitty things and oaths, a modern example would be divorce. Sometimes relationships need to end, even if that means breaking the marriage.

Sorry about the dialog, I'm learning not to sandwich too much into a post for the very reason it confuses and often side tracks from what I'm seeking.

For instance, this forum thread went in a different direction than I thought it would, and I recognize how my lack of clarity and tangential ways of thinking brought me here.

It's a powerful gift to say exactly what we mean and have others understand. That's definitely something I'm seeking for in life.  

Thanks for your question and thoughts.

sevensons

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Re: A Conversation about Hitler and Shame
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2017, 02:32:29 pm »
Quote from: Hildeburh;202641
Oath taking was a serious business in pre Christian heathen societies, these societies were based on honour. Oathbreaking could lead to swift a brutal punishment, including lesser outlawry.

The thing about using our gods as rational for human actions is that they are gods so they exist outside human moral norms and the moral codes of the day.

People certainly do shitty things but how is that related to oaths or even honour? The Nazi's considered themselves honourable and the rightful decendents of the Germanic tribes, and yet they got a thorough whipping in two world wars.

From a heathen perspective we do bear the weight of our ancestors, the pre Christian Germanic worldview was that you could recieve good luck or bad luck from your ancestors.

Your dialog just seems a tad confused to me.

 
Me to but I do shift through these things quite fast maybe I should go slow glow.
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Re: A Conversation about Hitler and Shame
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2017, 08:20:34 pm »
Quote from: Hildeburh;202641
The Nazi's considered themselves honourable and the rightful decendents of the Germanic tribes, and yet they got a thorough whipping in two world wars.

 
Nazis? Two world wars? Excuse me?

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Re: A Conversation about Hitler and Shame
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2017, 10:28:35 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;202671
Nazis? Two world wars? Excuse me?

Sunflower

 
Wow. Yeah, Nazis didn't actually exist until after WWI and only arose because of feelings left over from the First World War, playing on the myth that Germany was untreated fairly post-war and the feeling that something had been left unfinished since the majority of Germany was /never/ occupied in the inter-war years. For most Germans, the war happened far away in France and they would not have felt like they had been truly "whipped" as usually the conclusion to a war involved an occupation of some kind.

Plus there was also the myth/rumor that conservatives and Nazis loved to exploit that the army could've continued fighting if only that "horrible" socialist government didn't sign the armistice even if the military elite really were the ones who decided the army could no longer fight. There is no honor in a takeover built on lies, even if someone believed themselves to be honorable and doing anything. The true honor goes to people who called out the lies within the Nazi regime like Sophie Scholl despite the fact that it could cost them their lives.

The way to face any shame is by learning from it and fighting against the ideologues who still use the same tactics and repeat incredibly similar lies. Know what the fail state of your faith is and fight against any people who try to exploit it and turn it to harm others. The fail state of /any/ recon faith that involves a focus on heritage is toxic nationalism, especially when it involves groups that normally have power in their society who perceive imaginary threats in who they consider outsiders.

(Which is also why I find the inngard concept to be an incredibly toxic concept within Heathenry because it has a good chance of leading to this kind of thinking.)

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