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Author Topic: Hel x Baldr?  (Read 8362 times)

Tom

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Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2017, 05:30:38 pm »
Quote from: Hildeburh;202983
Just Reconstructionist, not hard or soft that's for boiled eggs.

 
Strict reconstructionist, then if you're going to be a pendant. That's what you're coming across as and I find a lot of issues with the methods of people who oppose the modern worship of any deity they can't find "evidence" for. One thing about archeology is not everything preserves well. Wood for example.

Tom

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Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2017, 05:42:06 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;203072
What, not even fried eggs?

More seriously, I certainly see the hard/soft distinction used to differentiate other 'ranged' positions (f'ex, 'hard' atheism and 'soft' atheism, generally expressed respectively as 'there is no God' and 'there is no evidence indicating the existence of God'). Are you objecting to the use of hard/soft as terms for this (which I'll note Tom was using to describe himself, not you) and would prefer different terms for describing the range of reconstructionist positions, or are you objecting to the idea that reconstructionism is a 'ranged' position at all?

Sunflower

 
Yes, that was the thing that I was trying to get across. I find it very difficult to follow reconstruction as a infallible method that shouldn't be questioned at all. I could not be as strict as some people are with verifying through reconstructive practices and welcome modern interpretations of mythology gratefully, especially when it comes to polytheisms that don't have a lot in the way of primary sources.

And interpolating from Hellenic sources, which vary greatly from city state to city state in how certain gods were worshiped and seen and percentage-wise, focus more on an Athenian point of view, there is no way we can know for sure how things were with less sources. There are Greek practices that we know /nothing/ about outside of a few fragments and probably ones that existed but we will never know because no one wrote the information down.

This is why I see reconstruction on a spectrum rather than just one kind of reconstruction.

Hildeburh

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Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2017, 04:22:41 am »
Quote from: Tom;203173
Strict reconstructionist, then if you're going to be a pendant. That's what you're coming across as and I find a lot of issues with the methods of people who oppose the modern worship of any deity they can't find "evidence" for. One thing about archeology is not everything preserves well. Wood for example.

 
Reconstructionisim is modern.

Hildeburh

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Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2017, 04:50:34 am »
Quote from: Tom;203175
Yes, that was the thing that I was trying to get across. I find it very difficult to follow reconstruction as a infallible method that shouldn't be questioned at all. I could not be as strict as some people are with verifying through reconstructive practices and welcome modern interpretations of mythology gratefully, especially when it comes to polytheisms that don't have a lot in the way of primary sources.

And interpolating from Hellenic sources, which vary greatly from city state to city state in how certain gods were worshiped and seen and percentage-wise, focus more on an Athenian point of view, there is no way we can know for sure how things were with less sources. There are Greek practices that we know /nothing/ about outside of a few fragments and probably ones that existed but we will never know because no one wrote the information down.

This is why I see reconstruction on a spectrum rather than just one kind of reconstruction.

 
Reconstructionisim is not infalliable and should be questioned as should all methodologies in regard to religions, if they were not we would not have separation of church and state in Judeo- Christian societies, freedom to practice alternate religions or the rise of modern cults.

It is the practice of Reconstructionists to question, research, think, challenge and ultimately accept our own UPG without requiring validation. Yes, yes.......even Recons have UPG, the difference may be we don't wear it on our sleeve.........may be that is a weakness.

One of the enduring  problems with our community,  in general,  is recognising the new from the old and embracing it without resorting to vague attempts to co opt the "Lore" to prove a cult reaching back to antiqity. That is the real cringe factor, though I have to say its not as bad as it was; where every sencond person claimed to have evolved their practice from their grandma's grandma or was initiated at eight.

Yes, I have also seen hard and soft used but most often in relation to polytheism, but I tend to think either you are a polytheist or you are not, same with Recons either you are or you are not.

Agreed, Germanic religions were also tribal and varied considerably through time and from place to place. That is the point of Reconstructionisim, it pulls together a common worldview without attempting to produce a pan-Germanic "religion".

Sefiru

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Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2017, 06:16:28 pm »
Quote from: Hildeburh;203191
Reconstructionisim is modern.


I'm not quite sure how this relates to what Tom posted. Would you mind clarifying?
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Sefiru

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Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2017, 06:18:45 pm »
Quote from: Hildeburh;203192

Yes, I have also seen hard and soft used but most often in relation to polytheism, but I tend to think either you are a polytheist or you are not, same with Recons either you are or you are not.

 
Which leads to the obvious questions,
(a) where do you draw the line, and
(b) why are you the one who gets to draw it?
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Tom

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Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #81 on: February 24, 2017, 07:46:29 pm »
Quote from: Hildeburh;203191
Reconstructionisim is modern.

 
I never said it wasn't. I just was pointing out that strict recons tend to dislike any modern cults of deities that they can't find definite evidence for in the past, though they seem to also have tendency to only apply this to deities that they dislike in some form.

Tom

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Re: Hel x Baldr?
« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2017, 08:02:34 pm »
Quote from: Hildeburh;203192
Reconstructionisim is not infalliable and should be questioned as should all methodologies in regard to religions, if they were not we would not have separation of church and state in Judeo- Christian societies, freedom to practice alternate religions or the rise of modern cults.

It is the practice of Reconstructionists to question, research, think, challenge and ultimately accept our own UPG without requiring validation. Yes, yes.......even Recons have UPG, the difference may be we don't wear it on our sleeve.........may be that is a weakness.

One of the enduring  problems with our community,  in general,  is recognising the new from the old and embracing it without resorting to vague attempts to co opt the "Lore" to prove a cult reaching back to antiqity. That is the real cringe factor, though I have to say its not as bad as it was; where every sencond person claimed to have evolved their practice from their grandma's grandma or was initiated at eight.

Yes, I have also seen hard and soft used but most often in relation to polytheism, but I tend to think either you are a polytheist or you are not, same with Recons either you are or you are not.

Agreed, Germanic religions were also tribal and varied considerably through time and from place to place. That is the point of Reconstructionisim, it pulls together a common worldview without attempting to produce a pan-Germanic "religion".

 
I'm going to be honest, there are a lot of reconstruction oriented people who are very invested in the idea of creating a pan-Germanic religion rather than focusing on a more local based view. Which is why I tend to be wary of them. Also it is not my experience that recons tend to be critical either. They tend to be very strict by the "lore" and dismiss anything that is not attested to in the lore (and in your case "the right lore" because you seem to believe that everything in Snorri must also be attested to in more "genuine lore").

I don't claim that any of my UPG is attested to in the lore and honestly, I find that over-all dependence on what the lore says prevents the Heathen religion from growing in an organic way that encourages more stories rather than just repeating the same ones over and over again ad nauseum. Bards and skalds didn't just tell other people's stories, but also created their own. As someone who is encouraged to write fiction by their god, I think that depending only on incomplete texts from centuries ago to validate things limits us needlessly.

Is some of it going to be rubbish and nonsensical? Sure. But pretty much any percentage of anything is that. I'm tired of picking up a new book of Norse Mythology and being /bored/ because I've heard all of this a million times over, which hurt even more because the last one I read was by Neil Gaiman and he is a good storyteller.

Honestly, there's a point where strict reconstruction starts to become a self-masturbatory exercise in "I am the most correct person here and here is why you are wrong because someone has to be write" game and I'm tired of it.

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