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Author Topic: Issues within Paganism  (Read 15082 times)

troll maiden

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Issues within Paganism
« on: January 10, 2017, 12:28:02 pm »
I'm part of an Asatru community on Facebook, today one of my fellow members posted a rant about the bigotry that he's encountered within the faith.

Well, it got me thinking about other issues that exist within Paganism. I don't know of many, and the knowledge I do have is superficial at best. Mainly because I don't really get involved in communities. I would like to but I'm way too socially awkward. :ashamed:

Anyway, I was wondering what issues people have come across within the various paths.


Btw sorry if this thread's in the wrong place. I was unsure about where to post it! ^^;

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2017, 06:44:46 am »
Quote from: troll maiden;201288
I'm part of an Asatru community on Facebook, today one of my fellow members posted a rant about the bigotry that he's encountered within the faith.

Well, it got me thinking about other issues that exist within Paganism. I don't know of many, and the knowledge I do have is superficial at best. Mainly because I don't really get involved in communities. I would like to but I'm way too socially awkward. :ashamed:

Anyway, I was wondering what issues people have come across within the various paths.


Btw sorry if this thread's in the wrong place. I was unsure about where to post it! ^^;

 
First issue that springs to mind is probably bad history/mythology disguised as history - by which I don't mean 'people saying ancient myths are factually true' so much as the way certain pagan groups in particular (I'm mainly thinking of neo-Wicca, though I imagine others do it, too) have a tendency to make wild claims about their beliefs and practices being the Ancient Religion of X which has been handed down in secret through the centuries and was what the witch trials ('Burning Times' - another mythologised piece of history) were really about - an attempt to finally wipe out this Ancient Religion (when for the most part the people being tried were very much Christians and so on).

In the case of Wicca it is, as I understand it, based mostly on the 'Witch Cult Hypothesis' which Margaret Murray wrote about (I think it originated before her and 'popularised' might not be quite the right word, but she drew a lot of attention to the idea) and which has been pretty soundly debunked but still gets written about as though it's actually accepted history in a lot of pagan/witchy books. I'm sure there's other examples, too. I say mythology, because it almost feels as though it's a mythologised version of the origins of the religion in question.

Other stuff that I find bothersome are a tendency towards cultural appropriation which... is a big topic that I don't really want to get into right now, and a lot of gender binarism/cissexism/heterosexism (for instance, equating womanhood/femininity/The Divine Feminine etc with menstruation, uteruses, etc, and similarly for manhood/etc and penises, with no acknowledgement that some women (even some cis women) don't have bodies that work that way and some men and non-binary people *do* have uteruses and all that jazz, and sometimes an outright denial that, say, anyone born with a penis can be a woman).

Also a certain amount of disablism (such as 'If You Don't Do [thing requiring a certain level of physical ability/thing that takes up a lot of energy and thus isn't really feasible for people with chronic exhaustion/etc] Then You Are Not A Real Witch/Pagan/Etc' type attitudes, and similarly 'If You Have Mental Health Issues Then You Are Broken And Unfit For Paganism/Witchcraft') although this seems to be fading out a bit, thankfully.

Basically, paganism has pretty much most of the same issues as any other group of people, I guess.

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2017, 07:55:57 am »
Quote from: Beryl;201308
Basically, paganism has pretty much most of the same issues as any other group of people, I guess.

 
I happen to think that my own denomination, at present, is just about as close to what my God wants his church to be as any other has been through history...if I felt otherwise, I would switch. And yet we have "issues" ourselves—as I readily acknowledge and as I am sure that many of you are richly aware....

So, yes, it can happen to anyone anytime you are dealing with fallible people.
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fatcatspats

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2017, 02:21:19 pm »
Quote from: Beryl;201308
First issue that springs to mind is probably bad history/mythology disguised as history


All of this is true, although there are now more people talking about how bad the history is than there are people advocating it.  It's difficult because any given religion will be greatly strengthened if its followers believe it to have a long history,* regardless of whether the claimed history is factual.

Quote from: Beryl;201308

Other stuff that I find bothersome are a tendency towards cultural appropriation which... is a big topic that I don't really want to get into right now, and a lot of gender binarism/cissexism/heterosexism (for instance, equating womanhood/femininity/The Divine Feminine etc with menstruation, uteruses, etc, and similarly for manhood/etc and penises, with no acknowledgement that some women (even some cis women) don't have bodies that work that way and some men and non-binary people *do* have uteruses and all that jazz, and sometimes an outright denial that, say, anyone born with a penis can be a woman).


There's a whole kerfuffle about trans women being excluded from rituals, especially in Dianic Wicca.  This book appears to give a pretty good overview.  I'm not personally very well-versed, but this blog post seems to be full of links about it.


Quote from: Beryl;201308
Also a certain amount of disablism (such as 'If You Don't Do [thing requiring a certain level of physical ability/thing that takes up a lot of energy and thus isn't really feasible for people with chronic exhaustion/etc] Then You Are Not A Real Witch/Pagan/Etc' type attitudes


I have not seen this in any of the books I have read, nor have I seen it firsthand at any group rituals.  On the contrary, I often read disclaimers saying the opposite: that if someone's not able to comfortably stand, for instance, they can still fully participate in a rite.  I would argue that disablism is not a problem within the community except to the extent that some individual people are cruel, and that will happen everywhere.  But I don't believe it's systemic.

Quote from: Beryl;201308
and similarly 'If You Have Mental Health Issues Then You Are Broken And Unfit For Paganism/Witchcraft') although this seems to be fading out a bit, thankfully.

I'd say that right now it's more along the lines of "don't join a coven only because you want a support group for your mental illness, which happens surprisingly often.
 
On to problems:

Racism is a big one in Heathenry.  There are essentially three camps, with most people falling somewhere between them.  The first camp says that anyone can be a Heathen as long as they emotionally connect to the tradition and follow the rituals, etc.  The second gives a person's history some say in how they believe, and states that that's valuable-often traditions will have a ritual of connecting with one's ancestors from hundreds of years ago who worshiped, say, Thor, and it would be considered appropriation if someone who didn't come from anywhere near Scandinavia, etc. tried to join their tradition at the drop of a hat.  The closest example I can think of is how Jews place a lot of importance on whether someone's parents were Jewish,** but they don't preach that Jews are "racially superior."  
Then, of course, you have the neo-nazi groups like the Odinists and the Aryan Brotherhood, which are, well, blatantly racist.

A problem that's related is that alt-right groups have been heavily associating themselves with the Greek and Roman myths, and while the myths don't belong to anyone, there is an emerging risk that a person who is into Greek and Roman myths will be assumed to be politically conservative until proven otherwise, in the same way that Heathenry's reputation (sadly) causes a Heathen to be assumed slightly racist until proven otherwise.

There's also the clergy debate: Currently, very few people are paid for teaching others about Paganism, which means we don't have a professional clergy.  If a Jew or a Christian wants to learn more about their religion, they can go to one of many seminaries or yeshivas, they can do so, but Pagans only have one, and it's online and not accredited.  What this means is your average Pagan has very little solid ground to stand on, unless they join a specific coven/grove/etc.  Also, there are few pagan religious centers, which makes it hard for the few pagans in a given geographic area to find places to congregate.

It's also difficult because most pagan interactions happen online, like this one.  In-person communication is invaluable for building a religious community, and it's much harder when you're behind a screen.  But not everyone has the resources to fly to California for Pantheacon-and wealthy Pagans are not the only ones whose voices are valid.

In summation, we have racism, the risk of traditions being automatically associated with political views, lack of any money for community organizing, and pagans being spread out all over without anywhere to talk in person.  That's enough to keep a thread occupied for a bit, I think.

*according to Ritual and Its Consequences: An Essay on the Limits of Sincerity by Seligman, Weller, Puett, and Simon.
**source: am Jewish by descent, and have 13 years of Jewish school under my belt

Allaya

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2017, 04:21:55 pm »
Quote from: fatcatspats;201316
I have not seen this in any of the books I have read, nor have I seen it firsthand at any group rituals.  On the contrary, I often read disclaimers saying the opposite: that if someone's not able to comfortably stand, for instance, they can still fully participate in a rite.  I would argue that disablism is not a problem within the community except to the extent that some individual people are cruel, and that will happen everywhere.  But I don't believe it's systemic.

 
The term in general use for this (including at TC) is ableism (not disablism, as we—the disabled— are not the ones being inconsiderate).

I realize that you have not observed it personally but that does not mean it's not a thing that happens, nor that it isn't widespread.

We have a not-insignificant number of disabled people (with a varied assortment of disabilities) here at TC and I'm pretty sure every single one of them has multiple stories to tell of the frustrating and disheartening ableist bullshit they've had to put up with both online and offline.
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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2017, 05:37:00 pm »
Quote from: fatcatspats;201316
I have not seen this in any of the books I have read, nor have I seen it firsthand at any group rituals.  On the contrary, I often read disclaimers saying the opposite: that if someone's not able to comfortably stand, for instance, they can still fully participate in a rite.  I would argue that disablism is not a problem within the community except to the extent that some individual people are cruel, and that will happen everywhere.  But I don't believe it's systemic.

It is, unfortunately, still out there (along with other pernicious ideas like "If you were just more positive, you'd feel better!" or "Your illness must be teaching you something!")

I did a presentation at Paganicon last year about Pagan practice and Universal Design (notes over here), and how to create practices that are more sustainable and accessible, and my audience (about 40 people, a number of whom have extensive ritual experience in a variety of settings) were both nodding along at the "we need to do better about this" and had a wide selection of (recent) horror stories for me.

For example, a lot of people I know who can't comfortably stand at length in ritual have stories about at least some of the following:

1) Rituals which went on forever (hours), when no advance warning or alternatives were given for that.

2) Shaming comments toward people who either (appropriately, i.e. using the designated cutting out or other method) removed themselves from the ritual or who took steps necessary for their wellbeing, like sitting down.

3) Rituals in which 'you can sit' meant 'you can sit on the edge of the circle and look at people's backsides while being unable to hear or see what's going on'.

4) Rituals in which much was made of sharing in the energy, and how people who couldn't dance could sit on the edge and do.. something, but there was no real guidance about how to do that and/or it involved having skills (like ability to participate more complex drumming and a drum) that not everyone has or has that day.

5) Pressure to help with setting up and cleaning up (sharing in the work matters! But a lot of people can't necessarily do a physically challenging ritual for their body *and* do those things immediately before or after)

6) Someone's appropriate (and non-disruptive) self-care leading to them having to justify themselves or their needs to one or more people whose business it isn't, and/or have an extended conversation about their health issues, what stuff they've already tried, explaining that no, the thing your sister's aunt's piano teacher's cousin swears by isn't a good choice for you.

And that's before we get on to...

  • Rituals that only provide material in print with no alternatives for large print or electronic review in advance (for people who are visually impaired)
  • People who rate "atmospheric lighting" over the ability of people in the circle to lipread (or refusing to provide scripts and long text pieces in advance, because 'that would ruin the experience)
  • Ditto, people who don't realise that things like bonfires are wonderful atmosphere, but are very difficult for people whose eyes don't do well with bright lights.
  • A whole host of issues for people with hearing impairments starting with poor enunciation, and continuing to assumptions that everyone who has a hearing impairment knows ASL and that's the solution. (Many people wth adult hearing loss don't, but would benefit from advance text materials or being able to stand in a specific place.)
  • Unnuanced flat statements about mental health or ongoing medication of any kind meaning that someone can not be considered as a student in a group  (and despite your comment I cut, these statements are still up on a number of group websies, or turn up as soon as someone expresses a mental health need, even if it's currently being treated and is reasonably stable.)
  • The tremendous number of events that still take place in spaces inaccessible to people who use mobility devices or can't manage stairs (or where the only bathroom is up or downstairs, etc.) Or are only available if you camp. Or can get over uneven ground to the ritual site.

And on top of all that, there's a lot of just plain ignorance about how to make things more accessible - a lot of people are willing to be educated, but someone has to do that educating, and people with chronic health issues already have plenty in their day.

Quote
It's also difficult because most pagan interactions happen online, like this one.  In-person communication is invaluable for building a religious community, and it's much harder when you're behind a screen.  But not everyone has the resources to fly to California for Pantheacon-and wealthy Pagans are not the only ones whose voices are valid.

Absolutely not. But there's also a wealth of local options - not available to everyone, but available to a lot more people. (A 45 minute drive may be out of the question for some people for financial or physical reasons or not being able to spare the one family car for that long.) You do need a certain amount of population density, but that's true for any not-so-common interest.

(When I was living in the middle of nowhere in Maine, it was at least 45 minutes to get to many other Pagans. But it was also, y'know, 45 minutes to get to a Mexican restaurant or a movie theatre other than the college town I lived in.

But there are a bunch of local events, including hotel-based conventions in a lot of places in the US these days, not just Pantheacon. There's Pagan Pride. There's various other picnics and meetups and so on.

(I helped found one of them, partly because there wasn't anything in that niche in the upper Midwest, and it turns out there are a bunch of people from the Dakotas and the middle of Canada who will do a long drive for an event but where Minnesota is a lot more accessible than Convocation in Michigan if you're driving.)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 05:39:00 pm by Jenett »
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Darkhawk

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2017, 06:23:50 pm »
Quote from: fatcatspats;201316
AThere's also the clergy debate: Currently, very few people are paid for teaching others about Paganism, which means we don't have a professional clergy.


That is... not what "professional clergy" means.

Clergy are trained ritualists or otherwise perform religious services.  There are a number of problems with this concept within paganism as a subculture.  A few of them:

* there are a number of different pagan religions, theologically unrelated ("paganism" is a subculture or sociological phenomenon, not a religion), and the sorts of religious services and ritual requirements for each of them differ; someone claiming status as "pagan clergy" is not going to be capable of providing religious services for pagans in general, because they are not even competent enough to be aware of thing one about pagan religions

* for some of those religions, the duty of clergy is service to the gods in a temple, not any of the pastoral stuff that people assume is the role of clergy because their model of clerical service is fundamentally Christian; this requires some sort of temple structure, and those are likely to be small, private affairs

* in a number of religious witchcraft traditions, being a trained ritualist is one of the basic starting things you learn when adopting the religion, and thus having someone else be a trained ritualist for one is ducking out on actually being a member of the religion

* demographics mean that pagans are widely distributed; co-religionists are likely to be not local unless by "co-religionist" one means "member of my specific lineal tradition", in which case the problem of training is solved already; some groups have attempted to deal with this with online-based organisations, which may train their own clergy to provide services within the group; these groups will not produce professional clergy unless they become much larger, and I will not infrequently see such groups money-begging from non-co-religionists with the plea "if you value pagan organisations" because they are incapable of being self-sustaining within the communities they serve

* those people who do work as clergy in pagan circles tend to fall into one of two categories: egotists who feed off of being considered Important Leaders, on the one hand, or people who burn out horribly from being sucked dry by communities that refuse to give anything back to them.  This does not produce healthy religious leadership.

To tackle the problem with "professional", besides, keeping in mind that "professional" means "a paid gig sufficient to make a living on":

* in order to have someone whose provision of religious services is a profession, special education is not required; a paycheck is required.  This requires a sufficiently large religious community to provide the money for that paycheck, an endowment, or other forms of planning.

* pagans as a whole are shittastic about institutional planning; some believe the formation of institutions is in opposition to principles of their religion

* and the number of pagans who think that paying for a workshop is too much for someone to ask is really extremely high; plenty of people who offer spiritual services for a living explicitly have to market themselves to non-pagans in pursuit of not starving to death, so where is this professional cleric who doesn't have something that can also go for the New Age, tourist, or other market going to get their rent money?  Specific-religion ritual is not exactly going to bring in the bucks, and if someone has to hold down another job to survive they are not working as professional clergy, by definition.

Quote
If a Jew or a Christian wants to learn more about their religion, they can go to one of many seminaries or yeshivas, they can do so, but Pagans only have one, and it's online and not accredited.


And it explicitly does not, and never has, dealt with becoming a priest/ess within one's religion - this is something the founder explicitly said, with the problematic "We are all priest(esse)s already, we don't cover that."  (I objected, at the time, on the grounds that the priesthood of all believers is not a universal pagan tenet.  But, you know, a lot of pagans are really very Protestant.)

If one wants training in one's religion one must get it from co-religionists, not CHS or some equivalent organisation.
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MadZealot

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2017, 07:45:37 pm »
Quote from: troll maiden;201288

Anyway, I was wondering what issues people have come across within the various paths.


 
Anti-Christian bigotry, mostly.  And it seems to me, most of the Really Bad History parroted by Pagans serves to prop up that prejudice.
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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2017, 08:56:34 pm »
Quote from: Allaya;201327
The term in general use for this (including at TC) is ableism (not disablism, as we—the disabled— are not the ones being inconsiderate).

 
Ableism is the American term, and disablism is the British one. Most British disability activists use the term disablism.
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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2017, 02:02:11 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;201335
That is... not what "professional clergy" means.

And pretty much everything else that you all have said...I have been absolutely owned.  I'm sorry for being an arrogant idiot on my earlier post-I stretched far beyond my area of expertise, and I apologize.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 02:03:05 am by fatcatspats »

Allaya

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2017, 04:48:36 am »
Quote from: Morag;201343
Ableism is the American term, and disablism is the British one. Most British disability activists use the term disablism.

 
Huh. Learn something new every day.  

It must be somewhat compartmentalized in usage, tho, as I've only run into Ablism when looking at UK-based autism resources.
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troll maiden

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2017, 02:09:47 pm »
Quote from: fatcatspats;201316
It's difficult because any given religion will be greatly strengthened if its followers believe it to have a long history,* regardless of whether the claimed history is factual.


I'm inclined to agree. I've read about groups that make fanciful claims about their heritage to lend more credence to their particular path.


Quote from: fatcatspats;201316
I'm not personally very well-versed, but this blog post seems to be full of links about it.


I've heard about issues of transphobia, it'll be interesting to read more about it. Thanks. :)

Quote from: fatcatspats;201316
Racism is a big one in Heathenry.


I've come across that and it really saddens me. I found a group on Facebook that seemed interesting so I dug around. Turns out they were a bunch of Muslim-bashing, white supremacists. I left pretty sharpish.

Quote from: fatcatspats;201316
The closest example I can think of is how Jews place a lot of importance on whether someone's parents were Jewish,** but they don't preach that Jews are "racially superior."


Learn something new everyday. There's no talk of racial superiority in the group fortunately, just people bragging about their heritage. Which I just ignore.

Quote from: fatcatspats;201316
A problem that's related is that alt-right groups have been heavily associating themselves with the Greek and Roman myths, and while the myths don't belong to anyone, there is an emerging risk that a person who is into Greek and Roman myths will be assumed to be politically conservative until proven otherwise, in the same way that Heathenry's reputation (sadly) causes a Heathen to be assumed slightly racist until proven otherwise.


That's interesting. I wonder what it is about the myths that attract alt-right individuals. Yeah I've seen people in the group talking about the flack they get for wearing Mjollnir pendants. It's a real shame. :(

troll maiden

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2017, 02:15:41 pm »
Quote from: MadZealot;201342
Anti-Christian bigotry, mostly.  And it seems to me, most of the Really Bad History parroted by Pagans serves to prop up that prejudice.

 
I hear that. Another guy tried to get a thread going about the positives of Christianity. It turned into a hate-fest pretty quickly. =/

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2017, 06:18:28 pm »
Quote from: fatcatspats;201316

A problem that's related is that alt-right groups have been heavily associating themselves with the Greek and Roman myths,


IIRC this is similar to where the term 'Fascist' came from -- the fasces being a Roman symbol of authority.
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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2017, 06:22:10 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;201335

To tackle the problem with "professional", besides, keeping in mind that "professional" means "a paid gig sufficient to make a living on"

 
I just want to add on to this discussion, as someone who is currently in training to enter a profession: what makes the difference between a job and a profession is that a profession has a self-regulating system comprised of an agreed-upon set of ethical standards and bylaws and a willingness of all members of the profession to ensure that these standards are upheld, both by themselves and by others who share the profession. I just wanted to mention this because a lot of people use "professional" to mean "gets paid for it" but there's quite a bit of difference between a job and a profession.

(Side note- I just pulled out my copy of the current ANA's "Nursing Scope and Standards of Practice"- it's 143 pages long)

Having said that, I agree with you that even under these standards I don't see a Profession for Pagan Clergy forming anytime soon (if ever)- as you pointed out this would take some sort of institutional planning that most pagans would find anathema.

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