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Author Topic: Issues within Paganism  (Read 15089 times)

Sorcha

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2017, 08:26:17 pm »
Quote from: Dynes Hysbys;201591
Would it be more stressful if the ritual deviated significantly from a "what to expect" sheet than not to have one at all?

 
I have ADHD and one of the ways that affects me is that I REALLY like to know what's going to happen and when as much as possible. This obviously only applies to me, but I think what I'd want to know up front would be

1. In a general way, what to expect. It wouldn't have to detail everything, but I'd want to know if there was going to be, say, dancing or singing or anything super expressive that I was going to be expected to participate in.

2. How long things were going to last. Not down to the minute, but "60-90 minutes" would be helpful.

3. If there was going to be a lot of standing and if sitting would be an option if needed. (My feet kill me if I have to stand still much longer than 45 minutes.)

4. If a specific type of attire is expected (I'd say any ritual where nudity was going to be a possibility should also have that noted. It wouldn't necessarily make me opt out, but I'd want to know ahead of time).

5. How to politely opt out of any aspect of the ritual and/or politely leave early if needed (I went to a church where leaving early was EXTREMELY frowned upon and I hate disrupting things, but sometimes you need to step out for some reason).

6. If there was any huge no-no's.

7. If I don't understand something/am not sure what to do, what I should do/who I should ask/if it's okay if I flub it. I started going to a liturgical church about a year ago, and I remember absolutely clinging to the order of service for fear I'd mess up. I loathe calling unnecessary attention to myself.

Obviously, with an established group, things are going to look different (just as in a longtime relationship, obtaining consent is going to look different than it will in a brand new one), and this would only be necessary if you had a newbie along. Maybe assigning somebody to look after the newbie and address any questions would go more smoothly in a loosely structured ritual than having a program, although addressing how to opt out of things ahead of time (and the nudity thing) should, to me, always be done.


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Anisaer

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2017, 10:09:38 pm »
Quote from: troll maiden;201379
I had a look and I found a group on FB; it's called the Christian Pagan Fellowship. Maybe try that if you haven't already ofc. ^^

 
I'm in this group and I can vouch for how chill everyone is. There's a wide variety of practice and belief but not a lot of heated conflict.


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Beryl

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2017, 03:28:51 am »
Quote from: Dynes Hysbys;201591
Hmmm - you rather have me there. Mine is a mystery tradition and we tend to keep the pre ritual briefing short and to just before it starts - even then it's a "need to know" basis so that the mystery gradually unfolds as the ritual progresses. In fact even I probably won't know exactly what's happening until we start as a certain amount of last minute "adjustment" is sometimes necessary if the weather is worse than usual or the turnout is more or less than expected and occasionally things go completely off script if outside forces decide to play too. Would it be more stressful if the ritual deviated significantly from a "what to expect" sheet than not to have one at all?

 
Oh, sorry, I didn't necessarily mean specifics of the ritual so much as "we will meet at X, the ritual will take around [rough amount of time - 'under an hour'/'up to two hours'/etc], there will be a space for anyone who needs to take a break [if this is possible - you mentioned people can drop back to sit down]/participants are expected to remain in the circle for the duration, there will be a less physically demanding inner circle shaping and directing energy, and anyone who feels this would be a better fit for them is more than welcome [or "and all participants are welcome to join whichever circle is the best fit for them"]" or whatever is appropriate. Maybe with a "we are unable to give details of the full ritual in advance, but if you have any specific access needs we can answer in general terms"?

Just a general gist of what to expect, how long things are likely to take (it's fine to be approximate so long as that's clear - "usually takes between one and three hours" is pretty vague but it's still, IMO, preferable to no indication at all of time!), that sort of thing, really. Maybe a general mention of the type of music, if any (e.g. if there's anything very high-pitched, this is Useful Info for me so I can prepare to cope with it), whether there will be any large quantities of smoke involved, and so on.

Beryl

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2017, 03:31:51 am »
Quote from: Beryl;201602
Oh, sorry, I didn't necessarily mean specifics of the ritual so much as

Whoops, missed Sorcha's post. Yes, her explanation is much clearer than mine, and covers several points I hadn't thought of (such as suitable attire/if there's potentially going to be nudity). Oh, and just to add, even ten minutes can be Quite A Lot Of Standing, maybe less for some folk.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 03:33:44 am by Beryl »

Dynes Hysbys

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2017, 09:54:23 am »
Quote from: Beryl;201603
Whoops, missed Sorcha's post. Yes, her explanation is much clearer than mine, and covers several points I hadn't thought of (such as suitable attire/if there's potentially going to be nudity). Oh, and just to add, even ten minutes can be Quite A Lot Of Standing, maybe less for some folk.


If you were going to a outdoor ritual billed for 30-40 mins in the middle of nowhere wouldn't you expect there to be more than 10 minutes standing up? I can see how the expectation would be different for an indoor meditative type ritual.

As for nudity I wouldn't ever expect it at a public ritual.  (Not to say I haven't done a nude outdoor ritual in October (!) but that was a strictly coven only event and in a much more inaccessible location for privacy)

I'm getting the impression that both you and Sorcha are used to much bigger, more formal events - the sort I have never been to and hope I never do as I would have many of the same anxieties that you both express.

Sorcha

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2017, 10:44:47 am »
Quote from: Dynes Hysbys;201611
If you were going to a outdoor ritual billed for 30-40 mins in the middle of nowhere wouldn't you expect there to be more than 10 minutes standing up? I can see how the expectation would be different for an indoor meditative type ritual.

As for nudity I wouldn't ever expect it at a public ritual.  (Not to say I haven't done a nude outdoor ritual in October (!) but that was a strictly coven only event and in a much more inaccessible location for privacy)

I'm getting the impression that both you and Sorcha are used to much bigger, more formal events - the sort I have never been to and hope I never do as I would have many of the same anxieties that you both express.

 
I'm used to ritual mainly in church settings, not pagan settings, so I'm thinking of my own anxieties in pretty much any group setting (I have social anxiety and an intense fear of messing up no matter what the size of the ritual).

And it's not so much that I would expect to be standing the whole time as that I might not even think about it, and get there, and end up in pain, and annoyed, because I have ADHD and while I'll think about 100 different things that might go wrong, I'll often forget the obvious thing that I might need to know. Which is why it's polite to let people know "seating will not be provided; if standing for long periods of time is an issue for you, feel free to bring a chair". Of course, I come from a tradition where expecting people to stand for long periods of time is going to cause grumbling if not outright mutiny because we tend to have a lot of elderly people.


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Beryl

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2017, 11:36:42 am »
Quote from: Sorcha;201612
I'm used to ritual mainly in church settings, not pagan settings, so I'm thinking of my own anxieties in pretty much any group setting (I have social anxiety and an intense fear of messing up no matter what the size of the ritual).

And it's not so much that I would expect to be standing the whole time as that I might not even think about it, and get there, and end up in pain, and annoyed, because I have ADHD and while I'll think about 100 different things that might go wrong, I'll often forget the obvious thing that I might need to know. Which is why it's polite to let people know "seating will not be provided; if standing for long periods of time is an issue for you, feel free to bring a chair". Of course, I come from a tradition where expecting people to stand for long periods of time is going to cause grumbling if not outright mutiny because we tend to have a lot of elderly people.

 
Yeah, I've never managed to get to any pagan events IRL because, well, disabled and stuff (and I can't drive, either) I'm just thinking of the general things I would need to know but might not think to ask/feel comfortable asking. F'rinstance, if I remembered that I ought to check "will there be a lot of standing?" I would quite possibly feel embarrassed to ask (particularly when I was younger and less confident in asserting my access needs) because, well, it's one of those questions where the answer probably seems obvious to someone who's not new to this sort of thing, and maybe not disabled (or not with the same type of disability as me, etc). It's obviously not practical to second-guess every possible access issue somebody *might* have, but it's really helpful (and makes the whole thing much more accessible in and of itself) to give people this kind of general accessibility info up-front without them having to ask - someone may have social anxiety about asking 'stupid questions', they may not be comfortable using the phone for various reasons, etc.

And as Sorcha says, I might well completely fail to consider 'basic' info like this, because of my ADHD and my brain fog. Having it spelled out lets me work out if I can manage to attend the event, if I can bring something to sit on, whether I'll need to bring extra snacks so I can take pain killers, etc.

Jasper

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2017, 06:59:36 am »
Quote from: Sorcha;201584
My grandfather insisted up and down that we were related to Jesse James (even had Jameses in the family). Turns out my uncle did a bit of research and this is essentially impossible. So while old family stories sometimes do hold credence, they should always be taken with a large grain of salt, especially if one wishes to use them to feed a superiority complex.


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Right, and I have to ask, what does it all mean? So say my family has an unbroken line of practice in the Craft, Paganism, Heathenry, or what have you, dating back to the beginning of history. First of all, that would be historically remarkable, probably worthy of contacting major anthropological organizations. Secondly, what would that mean for me? Would that make me more entitled to a higher social rank because my ancestors practiced in such a way? Would I be more entitled than someone coming from an entirely different background? Do I get a cookie? Also, if my ancestors did not practice as such, should I look down on them?

I think all of this references another problem, in that, there's a temptation to take the magical or religious component that interests and moves us, and completely cut it out of its cultural context, pasting it into our modern lives. Whereas, in reality, that component is tightly interwoven with its culture of origin.

EDIT: Not to say that you have to be born into a culture to practice that religion, I just mean that there may be a hazard in editing out the parts we don't like. Like if one doesn't like Christianity, and so pretends that none of their ancestors were ever Christian, for example. Not sure if that makes sense, the way I put it.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 07:03:23 am by Jasper »

Dynes Hysbys

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2017, 07:55:16 am »
Quote from: Jasper;201645
So say my family has an unbroken line of practice in the Craft, Paganism, Heathenry, or what have you, dating back to the beginning of history. First of all, that would be historically remarkable, probably worthy of contacting major anthropological organizations.


Would you really want them publishing details of your private family trad to be picked over by all and sundry? There is a  case to argue that researchers don't find family trads because the practitioners don't want to be found.

A recent book on modern fairy encounters by an experienced academic researcher has had to been published by a non academic publishing house simply because the people he met would only talk to him on the basis that their names were not revealed. Thus is the stigma that still attaches to some things but the book is still a valuable record of fairy activity in current society and a reflection of how even now people fear they will be perceived if they admit to seeing them.

Jasper

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2017, 12:42:43 pm »
Quote from: Dynes Hysbys;201647
Would you really want them publishing details of your private family trad to be picked over by all and sundry? There is a  case to argue that researchers don't find family trads because the practitioners don't want to be found.

A recent book on modern fairy encounters by an experienced academic researcher has had to been published by a non academic publishing house simply because the people he met would only talk to him on the basis that their names were not revealed. Thus is the stigma that still attaches to some things but the book is still a valuable record of fairy activity in current society and a reflection of how even now people fear they will be perceived if they admit to seeing them.


Right, I don't disagree with you. I just was thinking how people sometimes overstate or embellish family history in order to assume airs of-how do I put it?-greater legitimacy or involvement with a tradition.

Sorcha

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2017, 12:52:31 pm »
Quote from: Jasper;201653
Right, I don't disagree with you. I just was thinking how people sometimes overstate or embellish family history in order to assume airs of-how do I put it?-greater legitimacy or involvement with a tradition.

 
Exactly. It goes to motive. I saw somebody come in and make some VERY pompous statements basically saying they came from an ancient line and NOBODY had their experience and was totally offended when people were like "whoa there, cowboy, we don't even know you; why are you acting like that?" Most people don't care about your supposed ancient line if you come prancing into town acting like an unteachable ass and waving your supposed expertise (which no one has seen evidence of yet) under everyone's noses. Better to walk softly and let your practice speak for itself. Everyone has something to learn and something to teach.


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Darkhawk

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2017, 11:00:04 pm »
Quote from: Sorcha;201654
Exactly. It goes to motive. I saw somebody come in and make some VERY pompous statements basically saying they came from an ancient line and NOBODY had their experience and was totally offended when people were like "whoa there, cowboy, we don't even know you; why are you acting like that?" Most people don't care about your supposed ancient line

 
You could've ended it there and been just as accurate. ;)  :whis:
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as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Sorcha

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2017, 12:42:59 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;201678
You could've ended it there and been just as accurate. ;)  :whis:

 
Heehee

I mean, I'd find it interesting. I just wouldn't necessarily find it... compelling.

But then, I used to do historical reenactment, and the people whose great granddaddy was General So-and-so were usually the most historically ignorant with the shittiest gear and the most outsized ego. They tended to think that they were the real thing, so their stuff didn't have to be.

The people I respected were the ones who did the work and helped other people learn, regardless of their ancestry.


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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2017, 10:54:13 pm »
Quote from: Sorcha;201680
But then, I used to do historical reenactment, and the people whose great granddaddy was General So-and-so were usually the most historically ignorant with the shittiest gear and the most outsized ego. They tended to think that they were the real thing, so their stuff didn't have to be.

The people I respected were the ones who did the work and helped other people learn, regardless of their ancestry.

 
People confusing genetic heritage with cultural heritage. :hdsk:

And not even off-topic, because that's definitely an Issue Within Paganism, in various forms.

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troll maiden

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Re: Issues within Paganism
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2017, 06:38:21 am »
Quote from: Sorcha;201680
But then, I used to do historical reenactment, and the people whose great granddaddy was General So-and-so were usually the most historically ignorant with the shittiest gear and the most outsized ego.

They're usually pretty fragile as well. A guy in the Heathenry group posted some rubbish like 'Check it out! My father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate was Brunhilda the Bearded'. With the obvious inference of 'you should all be jealous of how Viking I am.'

Boy, was he not happy when someone pointed out that it actually wasn't all that uncommon to be related to this individual. Like losing his Scandinavian Street Cred somehow made his practise illegitimate.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 06:38:52 am by troll maiden »

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